You can do both the things I mention before Zero. In fact, you can go skydiving from a plane before you complete a single mission. I only got a far as unlocking the zero missions myself last night.

One of the coolest things in the game involves any plane from the LS airport, the parachute from atop a buidling in Commerce or Market in LS and a lot of height I did my first base jump off Mt. Chilliad last night.

No, that's the cheating way (by using a save). But you're close. I did it without saving/reloading. Basically, the odds on the horse don't realistically represent their chance of winning. Over 50 bets (yes, I was sad enough to sit with pen and paper and record 50 results) the 9/1 / 10/1 horse (Purple) won 9 times , therefore as long as you divide your stake into enough portions to ensure enough races to give you a win (I used 10 portions) constantly betting on an outsider will always make you money with time. Kind of like the reverse of Blackjack (where, over a sufficiently long length of time it's only possible to lose money). I did it by betting 10% of the money I had when I went in to the bookies only the 9/1 / 10/1 horse (purple), but the notes I made over 50 bets imply that I'd have made more going for the 11/1 / 12/1 horse (Green). Conversley, my system would never have worked for the 1st and 2nd faves (Red and Blue). Does that make sense.

I've just completed the badlands missions and I'm about to move onto San Ferino tonight (it's been unlocked since the badlands stuff but I haven't taken the time to explore, only the time to learn kung fu ), I've also done the optional trucking and "kill the courier" missions. As for money, I'm not going to tell you how, but without cheating or taking advantage of any bugs I own ALL the safe houses in LS and Badlands (including the $1,000,000 Farm and $1,300,000 house in Richman) and currently have 3,000,000 still in the bank ! There is a VERY easy way of making lots of money, that is pretty much gaurenteed if your don't cheat and is 100% gaurenteed if you cheat by going back to a save if you screw it up (screwing it up can leave you with no cash). I also now own a monster truck, which is VERY cool.

No it's not. It's only going to be a problem where we sell a significant percentage of our allocation. Where we don't the persistant standers stand at the back (along with the prefer-to-stand-if-not-inconviencing-others folks) where at most grounds the stewards turn a blind eye. Sadly, whilst this WON'T be an issue at most away games, it WILL be an issue at City and more importantly it WILL be an issue at home unless something is done about it NOW.

Girlfriend. Just turn up at her house in the evening. 6pm -10pm I think. If you've got as far as the gang wars bits it can be a real pain to get to her at the right time, so I suggest just dating her until you "complete" her and ignore the gang war bit or do the gang war bit and ignore her until later. House Breaking. Just across the road from Denise's is a black boaxville van, nick it then R3 to start. Train. It took me a few goes but it is certainly do able. I found the trick was to get back along side the train (after "take the high road") as soon as the on coming train passes. The early part of the chase seems not to matter too much, on Jill's first attempt her amazing sense of direction sent her off AWAY from the train (doh!), when she eventually came back to the track the train was waiting on the first corner with the first two blokes dead (despite smoke having not fired a shot).

Pimping -> Just jack a car that looks like an open top morris minor called a broadway and then hit R3.

I'm at pretty much the same point, but Pimping is easy/better money than the ambulance.

Not even close, the dancing is easier than "Guardian Angels" (with first mission with Lance) which was the first non-trivial mission in GTA:VC. I seem to be around the same point as Hughsey, although I've done a few more OG "Jeffrey" LOC missions. The two best missions so far have been the "Russian" ones.

Pah ! Neither mission (the low-riders with the stick or the beach party with the buttons) are that hard. If someone like me with no rythem or co-ordination can pass them anyone can.

These folks agree

To be fair to Hughsey, the manual isn't like a traditional manual, it's done as a fake tourism guide to SA and it's not obvious which bits are satire and which are hints at game features.

Erm, sarcasm In lots of ways I'm finding it better than the hype, lots of little tweaks (like the details on the buidling) and not so little ones (the greately improved handling of cars). At only 3 hrs play I've still not started to explore it, but from what I've seen so far it *is* the best PS2 game to date. The only downside (other than the framerate, clipping, and pops that every PC fan will always point out about every GTA on the PS2) for me is the Boyz In the Hood story line, whilst I don't doubt the dialogue is authentic even with the subtitles turned on I'm stuggling with the narrative a little, but then, I'm not exactly "straight outta Compton". It is quite nice that when I dressed CJ up like a Chav (baseball cap, trackie bottoms and checked shirt (as near as I could get to burbury)) my respect went down and people on the street (or is that "da street" ) started laughing at me ! DMF > When I have kids they can get their own god damn PS2 (and I sure as hell won't be buying them an 18 rated game like GTA until I feel they are old enough to apreciate and understand it. I was amazed last night at the number of parents who were obviously buying it for the the pre-pubescent sprog that was with them. But that's another rant for another day). BTW, I did manage to get SOME sleep (between 2am and 6:30am).

You know what ..... It's not bad

I'll be stood inline at Morley ASDA at midnight.

Which is precisely why I didn't pre-order it, Play.com do that a lot with big releases. I am however being incredibly sad and intend being at the local 24hr ASDA at midnight (not that I have to have it then, just to ensure I actually get it tomorow).

I was soooo close to convincing Toys R Us to selling it me last night.

Why ? Are Leeds playing them in the cup (welcome back Neil )

A Marc Knoffler simulator ?

GTA:SA is out on Friday (to us UK folks, the septics already have it and the Aussies may have to suffer an edited version), so that's me occupied until Christmas Remember folks. It say 18 on the box for a reason, NOT one to let your little darlings play (although you know if they don't they'll be picked on at school and just play it at a mates house anyway ). I can just smell the moral outrage already, I bet the Daily Mail letters page is being prepared as I write this). Having read everything I can on it I have to say one of the things I'm most impressed with is the muscial choice. For Example Helmet - Unsung Depeche Mode - Personal Jesus Faith No More - Midlife Crisis Danzig - Mother Living Colour - Cult Of Personality Primal Scream - Movin' On Up Guns N' Roses - Welcome To The Jungle L7 - Pretend We're Dead Ozzy Ozbourne - Hellraiser Soundgarden - Rusty Cage Rage Against The Machine - Killing In The Name Jane's Addiction - Been Caught Stealing The Stone Roses - Fool's Gold Alice In Chains - Them Bones Stone Temple Pilots - Plush ... And that's just one Radio Station of 11 (150 tunes in all), with Axl Rose as the DJ. I can just see myself tearing down Rodeo Drive on a stolen motorbike with "Been Caught Stealing" playing over the sound of police sirens or base jumping off the Golden Gate to Fools Gold.

The following was posted to the Rovers Mailing list by John Chamley (an ex-steward and Rovers supporter since 1964) and is reposted here with his permission, I hope you all find it as intresting a read as I did. I have only edited out very minor bits that are not relevent to our discussion, but please note it is not a direct response to any post on here. Also, sorry about the bad formatting, but this was cut and pasted from an email. -------------------------- I spent ten years working at Ewood as a steward missing just one competitive game in that time. I have done pretty well all of the tasks required of stewards from Car Park Steward to Logistics Officer and have been personally responsible for the supervision of up to 70 stewards and 8,000 spectators at a time. I have had experience at all levels of home and away fans both at Ewood and at a number of other local clubs when Rovers stewards were used to supplement their own for big matches. I was paid for doing that job and was expected to perform well and fulfill the duties given to me. I attended countless training courses and excercises covering all aspects of the job, many supporters are unaware of just how much goes into creating and maintaining a safe environment as unobtrusively as possible. Training is mandatory and stewards are tested and certificated only if they reach the required level. The amount of work, organisation and attention to detail is something that has won Rovers' stewarding operation much praise over the years and many clubs have used Rovers as a model for their training. I sit here wondering when you last went to a game as you seem to be completely out of touch with the nature of a football crowd. The majority want to watch the game in comfort & safety but there are others who have a different agenda. They are there to show how hard they are and to try and provoke reactions whenever they can. They are adept at pushing stewards and police to the limit and will do anything possible to be the focus of attention including standing and refusing to sit down by 'ignoring' all requests. So why don't the stewards make them all sit down? The priority of the stewarding team & the Police is, and always will be, the safety of anyone and everyone inside the stadium and on Rovers' property outside. Controlling several thousand away fans safely is a major undertaking, made more difficult because it is hard to exert pressure without causing a greater problem. Home fans can be identified by seat numbers and can be contacted by the club in an effort to solve the problem. Withdrawal of season tickets and banning orders are a last resort but the threat does offer good leverage. Trying to eject a large number of hostile away fans poses so much danger to innocent spectators that it is also a last resort and was never an option in my time there, the yobs are also aware of this. Individuals could be identified and safely removed from the ground the first time they went for a pee or a pint, such joy was often had by letting them buy a drink at extortionate prices then ejecting them before they had even taken a sip! More often than not, the remaining 'fans' in that area would give a second thought to their behaviour, but not all of them all of the time. Another factor is, who do you eject when there are a thousand people standing? Many of them may only be standing because those in front are blocking their view and so you have a knock on effect, do you eject those people? How do you distinguish? Standing is not an arrestable offence but it is a failure to comply with the Ground Regulations and may result in being asked to leave the Ground or being escorted out. The two Rovers fans were arrested for Public Order offences, not for standing. So far a workable solution has not been found but it is not for lack of trying over the years. All I can say to you and others who feel that they are being unfairly treated is, rise above the behaviour of the yobs who think that they can do what they want with impunity. The more people who can do that, the safer the grounds will be and gradually the few who try to spoil it for the many will become isolated and more easily identified and dealt with. I am still in touch with many of the current stewards and I'm sure that they do not think that it is alright for away fans to stand while home fans must sit, they are acting on instructions that are passed from the Safety Officer and the Matchday Ground Commander. The difficulty in removing someone from a seated area was highlighted during a combined training excercise with the Police and Stewards some years ago. Around 30 stewards were sat in the Darwen End and the 'Riot Squad' had to remove one from the centre of the group. We (the stewards) were asked to take the role of 'boisterous' fans and we did it with a true sense of realism. When the Police tried to take one person out they met with much passive opposition and verbal abuse. We linked arms and stayed our ground until, after a couple of minutes, the Inspector in charge called a halt. It was virtually impossible for the highly paid and trained officers to do the job without a serious risk of injury to someone, we also managed to grab two of their telescopic batons in the melee! The brief was that no-one was to be injured and this made the operation even harder. With a hostile bunch of yobs it would be the recipe for disaster so the stewards do know what they're doing. Clubs are co-operating with each other to try and solve the problem and one way is to identify the offenders and ban them from their own grounds. This takes a lot of time and resources and again there is the problem of 'innocent' fans standing because they can't see over those standing in front. Stewards are paid but not fantastic wages, they are also part-time, covering maybe 25 games a year, so for them to be trained and perform professionally is a big ask but one that Rovers have managed to achieve on the whole. If you were getting paid 20 quid a match, would you take threatening abuse from a bunch of alcohol fuelled thugs who will do all they can to intimidate and provoke? It takes bottle to do what many of them have to and I can only commend them for it. Of course their are some shirkers as in every job but on the whole they do a good job that often goes without recognition. The only time we hear anything from some fans is when an incident has taken place and they have judged it without knowing the facts. How many games have been watched in safety and comfort by many thousands over the last 12 years? It wasn't just coincidence or luck that made that possible. Rovers stewards were voted by away fans as the best in the League during my time there. They were said to be friendly & helpful with a sense of humour, not antagonistic like they are at certain grounds, especially those were Agency Stewards are used. I know how much I put into the job, nothing was too much trouble and I treated people as I would like to have been treat, home and aways fans alike. That attitude was the one that got the best results. Your jibes at the stewards are an insult that I still feel personally as I helped trained many of them over the years. [Regarding John Newsome] John started as a steward in the old Darwen End and worked his way up to Safety Officer. He shared the responsibility of overseeing the safety aspect of the construction work as well as that of the employees, visitors etc not to mention the huge operation on match days. There is no-one at Ewood with a greater knowledge or experience than him and I'm sure he would do his best to oblige, just ask him. JC

Stop it now ! As much as I enjoy a good pun-a-thon this isn't the place for it. Alan75, fantastic post. Jim, Sadly I think the rot had already started to set in Eighteen months ago. Remember when we signed Andy Cole and had one of our lowest gates of the season the game afterwards, remember qualifying for the UEFA Cup and still seeing a drop in ST sales (and gates in gerneral). I've long since "lost the spark" for home games and have been looking forward to away ones much more. Signing Hughes did replenish the spark briefly, but that soon died again Home games are now more of an excuse to have a beer with a few mates than anything. It's probably just a matter of time before it dies for away games too.

At Chelsea ? The only place I've seen someone ejected for half standing whilst attempting to retrieve their mobile from their pocket ? Sadly CFC's stewards have been as belligerent to visiting fans as our stewards are passive (to visiting fans).

I don't know about about other teams at Ewood (as not surprisingly I don't sit in the Darwen End) but away from home Rovers *do* take their own stewards. I believe this is why away from home Rovers pretty well behave as directed (i.e. a number may stand at the back, out of the way, unless specifcally told not to, at which point they'll sit without argument) because most regular away travelers know the stewards and respect them. A number of times away from home I've seen "over excited" Rovers fans sorted out with a quick 5 min chat from Rihaz (sp?) without any need for anyone to be dragged to the concourse, threatend with ejection or intervention from the police. Do anyone know if other teams do the same at Ewood ?

We did for the Villa game (and once more in a masterstoke of Rovers PR genius it was only publicized in the Birmingham press, just think how many fans would currently see the club in a better light) and they ignored it. Story on icBirmingham