Totally take your point on the stats in fairness. I think with stats, the main ones to take notice of is goals and (to a slightly lesser extent) assists for players along the front line, mainly strikers, once you go further back, stats dont tell a full story by any means. To go off on a tangent, with a holding midfielder or a defender, things like interceptions, tackles etc could just mean that a player is out of position more often. But any way, my point is very much a subjective one, and coming into this season I would have been more inclined to agree with the idea that he just needs game time centrally in a way that suits him and then he would have no reason not to really flourish. That has happened this season, in terms of where he has played and how often he couldnt have asked much more, yet to me, he has continued to frustrate and disappoint aside from occasional brilliance. He definitely has talent, maybe thats why I expect more, but some of the supposed barriers have been removed and he still in my opinion is not doing enough. Maybe he will just have a career as one of so many players who has obvious talent but can never piece it together on a regular enough basis. Or maybe he will push on either elsewhere or hopefully here and become far more consistent.

I have acknowledged that perhaps Rothwell may argue that he could have been coached better and indeed he may go elsewhere and take his career up a notch, but there is no acknowledgement that indeed he has been played regularly this season in his preferred position and has still not really done much, proving to be very inconsistent. King is a different situation, and one in which he didnt play because the 2 playing ahead of him were both 20+ goalscorers, and King also frequently spent time on the treatment table. You could go through a host of players from the past that people felt at the time could do more and for whatever reason, including under various managers, they werent performing consistently, some will have moved on and gone up a notch, some will have vanished into obscurity and many will be inbetween. Rothwell has never had a season where he has particularly excelled hence why I am not prepared to nail my colours to the mast and suggest that he has it in him to really perform consistently at this level or indeed the level above. There is no pissing contest between Armstrong and Rothwell because at a younger age the former has conclusively shown far more than the latter although your prediction is sadly fairly likely. For what its worth, I would be happy to keep him but I just think people are using his inconsistency as a symbol to slate the manager when in this situation, its not clear cut. Besides, the managers overall performance more than merits a P45 and has for a while.

2 more excuses for Rothwell, not being consistently played on the back of a season when he played regularly from a preferred area of the pitch, and of course the nonsense about the team being purposely set up to make Armstrong look good, which I dont want to get into again. Either way, no personal responsibility towards the player even though the first excuse has this season been invalidated. The problem is that criticising a player seems to be perceived as backing of the manager which is nonsensical because Mowbray signed him anyway so either way the blame goes back to him.

Its not that I dont rate him and indeed I said that I would be happy to see him stay and if the next season started tomorrow I would start him. I just feel that he is regularly made out to be hard done by, when in fact hes 26 and has never consistently performed here and wasnt scoring and assisting loads prior to the last 3 years. I feel like its almost symbolic to be able to put his lack of consistent performance and end product onto the already vast fire of evidence that points to Mowbray needing to be sacked, but even playing regularly centrally this season as he wishes, I dont think hes done anywhere near enough. Contributing with goals and assists is a little more clear cut than things like "progressive runs" "pass completion" and things like that, goals and assists are the important thing and the bread and butter. Youve compared him to Evans for example, he is a defensive midfielder deemed not good enough for us so its an irrelevant comparison. Rothwells driving runs almost exclusively end in him losing the ball or messing up the end bit. I dont doubt that he has ability and certain attributes but his all round game is in my opinion no better than mid table Championship standard. I dont hate any Rovers players, I just get frustrated by quite a few of what I consider to be a pretty poor squad built by Mowbray. With a number(some have thankfully left) such as Bennett, Bell etc they frustrate me because they arent up to it and they cost my team. Rothwell is more complex, I dont have that same feeling of doom when I see his name because he unlike some others has something about him but he almost exclusively frustrates yet hides behind excuses, needs to play in this position, would do better in this team, has been poorly coached etc.

I totally get it as we all know that Mowbray needs to go and we want some hope but clinging onto the perceived ambiguity of a tweet of a commonly criticised journalist who was saying that the managers job is safe is sadly beyond clutching at straws and only setting us up for disappointment.

He has a very specifically strong attribute of being able to beat people with the ball at his feet, more so than most. But you say that "he has the ability to be our best player," again, does he? The most important thing I would suggest that defines ability is intelligence and 95% of the time that he runs at players, he loses it or makes the wrong decision. That what if seems to surround so many players, what if they started providing an end product, regular goals, regular assists, that what if is the key difference that seperates the very valuable players from the rest. I don't necessarily even think it is necessarily something that anyone needs to be blamed for, including himself. Most footballers are capable of occasional brilliance otherwise they wouldnt be playing as high as they are. You also mention that he is "worth a lot more" than £1m but again, I suppose the proof will be in the pudding but thats a hell of a statement. Is there a market (especially amidst covid) for any Championship club to spend such a sum on a player with a very impressive attribute and obvious talent but one who at 26 hasnt really achieved much in his career? Why could he play in the top division? Like I've said, I would be more than happy to keep him in that if we name our side (with Dack injured) as it stands for the start of next season, he is in it. I am just wary of making out as many (not yourself) have that he is some sort of representation on Mowbray's mismanagement, because not everything is. He is a player who perhaps warrants the level that he is at, mid table Championship level coming into the peak years of his career. He can excite, he may feel like he could have been coached better and he may well move on and take his career up a notch, but its all could have would have should have. Was the team we had with Cairney in it "much better?" Cairney played wide right in a midfield with Lowe and Williamson in the centre.

McBride wouldnt have played in central midfield anyway. Totally agree that Mowbray should have taken a longer term view in his team selections towards the end of the season, but for me it should have been the young lads already on the fringes playing in that they are most likely to play next season, for example the midfield 3 on the last day which hadnt been seen prior, or maybe Dolan out wide.

I do think that Rothwell more than anyone gets his own performances and reputation almost shielded by the bigger issue that is the overall failings of the manager. He obviously could maybe argue that he may have been coached better (although its basically impossible to judge) and indeed he may move on and push on in his career, but he is not this unappreciated talent that is being prevented from expressing himself by Mowbray. His CV prior to joining was underwhelming, so its not as if hes proven that he can perform regularly beforehand. His dribbling ability is very good but his football brain seems to be lacking unfortunately. He played this last season regularly from a favoured central run and continued to flatter to deceive. Comparisons to Cairney are also unfair as Cairney was regularly performing here prior to leaving. Ultimately, he is a Mowbray signing so either way, it doesnt reflect well on him and this isnt a defence of him. And I am not opposed to him staying by any means. I dont think he has any justification in thinking that he is above a mid table Championship midfielder though.

Over 2k of us will get a discount on our season ticket though, wouldnt that jeopardise that?

You could argue that all of that is just tactics. Its when priorities such as youth development or style become more important than results that thing go awry.

Its a nice idea and I dont want to sound dismissive but I just cant see how this would work or indeed make a difference. In comparison to season tickets, shirt sales are small fry. And with season tickets, I don't think anyone should feel ashamed about wanting to return after the last year, but a dip in sales will be inevitable and organic, yet the owners dont give a shit anyway to notice even if that happens. A total lack of shirt sales is unrealistic anyway unfortunately as we have seen too, whether its people wanting to buy it for their kids or whatever. Personally, I have not bought a shirt since I was a teenager, I don't understand logically why adults do to be fair, so whilst I do want the manager out and again wont be buying a shirt, there is no difference and thus its not a protest, unsure if you are the same @Stuart or if you would normally buy a shirt?

Not sure about Reach, always seems to flatter to deceive, scores a wonder goal once in a while, although he ticks all the boxes having played at Boro.

A lot of teams these days seem to think that it is fashionable to base everything on delusions of "philosophies" and random additional objectives, such as specifically bringing through excessive youngsters or aesthetic things such as playing "attractive football." As you say, the manager should be the one who decides on such things, he would naturally play youngsters if he had sense and they were up to it, and he would play a style that he felt was the most appropriate and be judged on the results of that. How do you know based on a year of football against kids in which attendance to games has not been allowed and only towards the end of the season was coverage available?

I cant see any reason whatsoever for Mowatt joining. He's one of the best midfielders in the division, even if Barnsley dont go up, they finished 21 points ahead of us so he would be much better advised to remain there over us if none of the inevitable flurry of other clubs that try to entice him away dont take his fancy. Assombalonga seems a spent force and I am not convinced that we could afford his wages. Harris has mainly played this season at wing back but seldom gets goals or assists and Adelakun has never managed to prove himself at this level. Adam Reach and Sam Clucas have also both been linked, suspect that the former may have a chance purely because he came through at Boro!

I think some of them are unrealistic (Ayew, Mowatt, Dalsgaard, Wilshire, Femenia and Kabesele) and then going through retained lists in general tends to throw up that question of why are other Championship teams letting these players go, some are not very good (Niasse, Lansbury etc) and then especially at the moment with the free agent market likely to be so competitive coupled with as you say our lack of proactivity, it could be difficult. A few of them would be good, Vrancic has always impressed me for Norwich, I also like Diedhou who always seems to run us ragged for Bristol City, its a difficult market but could be our best bet to get some much needed experience.

I dont doubt that Mowbray is an idiot (my issue was more with him selecting players like Evans, Trybull, Johnson who should have gone, Bennett etc rather than giving the young first team players who are more likely to be in the first team this season more game time, Davenport, Buckley, Dolan etc) but the problem with those that you name is we have no idea whether any of those that you name are anywhere close to Championship standard because they have only played against kids.

The thing with academy players is that im not sure that it is something whereby you can randomly choose one financially tight season to just surge through a load of youngsters all of a sudden, are there even any who are ready to come into our first team squad. The only workable strategy is to bring youngsters through as and when they are ready to genuinely contribute. That isnt me dismissing the value of the academy, indeed if there are some individuals ready to step up then by all means bring them through, and if not, an academy is an ongoing process that needs to continue. But the current first team squad is lacking in experience as much as anything, I think that Johnson and Ayala are the only 2 contracted players next season above the age of 30. We have the likes of Rankin Costello, Wharton, Pickering, Buckley, Davenport, Brereton, Travis, Nyambe etc and maybe even Carter all expected to be right within the first team picture, we need some experience and proven quality.

Do you not think they would be better if senior players (and this isnt a rule thing as apparently 3 can play but it seemingly isnt really common) played more regularly at that level? Are any of them kids likely to be anywhere near our first team?

I expect him to leave, he took a pay cut to join so I suspect that he is already one of the higher earners and there is little wiggle room financially. He has a year left and has had 18 excellent months, even if no one bids an acceptable amount, it makes sense for him to wait and potentially even leave on a free next summer. This year under Mowbray, lets face it, Armstrongs goals kept us from being in a relegation fight. Not seeing much to suggest that assuming he does leave and of course we know that Mowbray will stay, it might be a case whereby 21st is a successful season sadly.

No, I have never watched or to be honest really had an interest in regularly watching the under age teams to be honest. It was just a question as the difference between reserve and first team football seems vast, and our reserves keep succeeding yet there doesnt seem to be many close to the first team. As @Sparks Rover touches upon, players returning from injury or indeed those who simply dont get any game time of a weekend could play for the reserves. In theory, it would benefit everyone, the football would be much more competitive and make the youngsters that do progress through the ranks more prepared for senior football, it would allow all senior players to then keep a level of match fitness and it would also prevent signings being made for the reserves solely to fill gaps at that level, as Lyons and White seem to have done.

Do you think that it would make more sense to revert back to the old reserve league style system which would not only avoid crucial years in a young players development being wasted and also would see young players playing against seasoned pros rather than in a sanitised environment?

Its the most in the league of any striker once you remove penalties. "Hardly outstanding" though in your eyes. He missed 8 games, we scored 4 goals in those.

Won't be missed?! Ok, nonsense about Armstrong aside and focusing on Rothwell aside, he has started 29 of the 39 games he has been fit in, from a central position that he craved, and coming on in the other 10. He has contributed very little. I think it is more than a north east accent that he is lacking. It makes no sense for Armstrong to sign a new deal, even if he doesnt go this summer the power is with him. Regarding us, I dread to think where we go with Mowbray in charge and an inferior replacement, more reliance on the 12m duo and a relegation fight.

I suspect that if you played Dolan in the same role across the season as Armstrong, he would struggle to score a quarter of the goals that Armstrong managed.

I can't see that being true, I am not convinced that there would be much interest in Rothwell and certainly none from Armstrong at signing a new deal. Rothwell has hid behind excuses yet has flattered to deceive throughout his Rovers career so I wouldnt lose any sleep over his departure. @Stuart there is absolutely no way that "we are a better team" when Armstrong doesnt play. All this "Movement, interplay, passing and movement, cohesion, body language" that crops up when he is absent led this season to 4 goals in 6 league games and 2 cup games which he was missing in. I understand your frustration that Mowbray is still in charge and I share it but this idea that Mowbray purposely creates a system with the primary objective of "artificially" boosting Armstrong's goal tally at the expense of the team is nonsense IMO aimed at added further fuel to the already blazing fire of arguments that lead to Mowbray needing to be sacked. Also, very few goalscorers score their goals perfectly proportionate across the season, it is very common for strikers to score morre during certain runs than others, Rhodes was the same, and Armstrong's biggest drought was 6 games scattered around 5 missed due to an injury he was clearly carrying. Had he not been here this season, simply putting someone else in this supposed role would not have led to the same quantity of goals and we would have likely gone down or had been very close to doing.