The thing is that this is now very much Mowbrays squad. If the players he has assembled make too many individual errors, even without considering whether that is due to exposure based on style of play, then that is still on him.

To be fair we finished above 16th in both prior years under Mowbray. 12th is about right though and still is miles off target.

I interpreted that not as that we should specifically aim to play crap football, just that its impossible to enjoy the football very much when the results arent good enough.

Im not too sure that anyone has suggested that we should put in crap performances in hope of sneaking a 1 nil.

Is the goal conceded yesterday the earliest in our history? Also has to be difficult to beat in terms of a goalkeeper debuting and letting in his first goal.

Do you think thats there any chance of getting him to agree a new deal. Essentially since he signed as we were promoted, we have been continuously in mid table, and show no tangible signs of pushing beyond that this year. Armstrong after 1 and a half very underwhelming years has started to go from strength to strength and if he continues to score prolifically, after a year and a half of goalscoring and having just turned 24, he could be in a very strong position assuming we dont go up this season with only a year on his contract to go. If I was his agent or indeed even him, I would advise to hold off and wait and see, his position will only grow stronger.

Fantastic analogy!

I fear that when Armstrong does go, we then go from being content if Gallagher and Brereton can chip in (which they still dont really manage) to being reliant on them as key sources in our attack. Dack like Armstrong will have a year left next summer, I doubt he will stay.

Still fuming about last night. This style of play has allowed to us to run riot against the 3 teams on the lowest points in the league but against better teams it just leaves us hopelessly exposed. The first goal in particular was absolutely pathetic, to concede in that manner was unacceptable and unforgivable. I am a bit surprised to see Lenihan get all of the blame at centre back, i though Williams was really poor and perhaps slightly worse, his attempt at a tackle for the second goal was embarassing. We know that he can be a capable stand in but hes never good enough to support where we want to go. That being said, the pair just seemed totally exposed by the style. Rankin Costello is a real dilemma, his cross for the second was very good but he is nowhere near competent enough to play as a full back, even though his deliveries come from deep. We arent Liverpool with Robertson and Trent at full back, bring Nyambe back and play him regularly. Douglas was abysmal yesterday too. Pears looked like a little boy in net and for the first 2 goals, especially the second, I would question his role. Trybull didnt totally convince me in that holding role and Evans cannot play slightly further forward. Holtby was ineffective, hes a talented player but sadly most of his games in a Rovers shirt have been like that. Buckley was a pointless sub, instantly brushed off the ball. Armstrong surely will be thinking about the next transfer window, prolific goalscorers dont stay forever in mid table teams. Elliott definitely has quality and a great ball for the first. Brereton was again ineffective as he is more often than not. We have too many players that Mowbray has signed that have more quiet games than good games. Dolan was quite bright when he came on, Gallagher was absolutely shocking, technically totally bereft and incapable. And why does he keep getting shunted out wide, only highlighting his technical inability? Baffling When does the point come when we compromise on or even abandon these ideas of total football, with a few laughable comparisons to Liverpool thrown in? We dont have the players to be so blaze with our style. And at one point do we roll the dice on the manager, I am not necessarily saying change him now but this has a feeling of a last season before a bit of a factory reset with a few loanees and players approaching the end of their contracts so we cant afford yet more of a work in progress.

Weve been wowed by the nature of our wins so far but if we lose today, 4 losses from 8 would be a poor start so we need a comeback. Against the divisions worst we can sense blood and give them a good hiding. Against decent teams we cant keep them out at all. Not good enough. Pathetic defending all round, Douglas has been appalling, Williams summed himself up tonight with his attempt for the second, Lenihan too rash and Rankin Costello blatantly not a defender. Keeper not convincing either. To be fair, Bell has been putting in shite performances since he joined. This is Douglas' first. Although hes been dismal.

It is the ifollow one, is anyone watching on chrome? I tried a different browser and seems fine now.

Is everyones stream working?

Might be a boost that Ejaria is out for them.

Could do with Downing back as an extra bit of craft to have around.

Just tried the stream and not working, presumably because there is still a bit until kick off but is everyone else the same?

He wasnt on the bench on Saturday, Wharton has replaced Bell.

If we are signing Downing, if we had done it far sooner and he would have started today for sure. He would add another creative option centrally that we could do with. Evans further forward again is not good at all.

I definitely agree that stats have the potential to mislead. A striker with clever movement and the intelligence to get into goalscoring positions, baring in mind that a strikers chances are as much down to his own movement as they are the supply, would compare very unfavourably to one who rarely gets into goalscoring positions in the first place surely? They have such limited use, certainly in isolation. If a team has low xG and is outperforming that stat, why does that have to level out, perhaps that team has a particularly clinical attack, a player or two who is very adept from long distance, or a particularly good goalkeeper.

I think the debate is often measured on the morality of not offering refunds but financially it made no sense either. Refunds claimed would have been minimal and could have been deferred, yet a percentage of those who feel cheated will now as we have seen not buy a season ticket going forward, therefore any slight saving from denying refunds will be removed.

Thanks for the explanation firstly, certainly a very thorough description so fair play. So is the xG not even specific to individual games? I presumed that it was implying that ultimately in the games that we didnt win, that we should have done based on xG. It is incredibly flawed because if most of our xG in 7 games came within 3 games, then that isnt fair to suggest that we should be top based on that! You mention Bamford, what the stat also doesnt factor in is to have so many chances is reliant on him having that anticipation and intelligence to get himself into goalscoring situations, it isnt solely a striker being reliant on service scenario. Take Brereton, he never gets himself into goalscoring positions, so I wouldnt be surprised if his one goal from distance ensures that he is out scoring his xG. Whereas Bamford will have more yet might not take them all. So forwards who keep managing to get into positions to get clear cut chances will be penalised by this method should they not take them all. Andy Cole would have been screwed if his performance was measured like this! You imply that it is not sustainable to outscore your xG consistently but surely you can if you have particularly clinical forwards? I totally appreciate data in general and of course it does play a role but I can be incredibly skeptical of its use in football in certain situations. xG just seems flawed in my opinion to the point where it has limited value in my opinion.

I thought that Rothwell was really poor against Cardiff in the game before when he faced a team defending deep as has often been the case. Although he definitely has attributes that could be of use.

I think we are selling Johnson down the river by playing Johnson in front of the back 4. He is as bad a midfielder as I can remember in recent memory at taking the ball on the half turn, he is not technically very good, he has been robbed of the ball in that role countless times and his passing isnt very good. He has made a career at this level of breaking from deep and scoring from midfield, and whilst he is getting older, I think he can still do that. He was much better at the weekend with Trybull being the sitter providing a safety blanket behind him.

I dont think that Rothwell has had enough of an impact for us to warrant necessarily coming straight into the team. Coming in for Johnson may be something that could happen although I think that Johnson was fine on Saturday and is a goal threat from that position. Dack will be a bit of a different story in terms of quality although the length of time out means that instantly starting him wont be a possibility anyway.

Agreed, that is a perfect example. Also, if a team is "outperforming" or "underperforming" compared to their xG, even assuming that the expected goals statistic is black and white which of course it never can be, it is only considering chances created and not the fact that some teams have better attacking players who will be more clinical than others!

Surely like many other clubs, put the option that they can either have the ifollow links or a pro-rata refund. You can even mention that ideally to take the links to help the club in the press release, and if cash flow is that tight, which it seemingly isnt, then you can offer the refund deferred onto this season, that way people have been reimbursed and it also acts essentially as a deposit practically guaranteeing a season ticket holder going forward. Its not rocket science, and even taking the moral side out of it, from a business perspective, it is a poor decision, especially longer term.