I wouldnt panic yet, the terrible form has only been across 19 games.

The inability of all the team to stay on side was embarassing but Armstrong was by far the worst offender. He should have gone out wide, I know we want him central long term but if the alternative is Gallagher and Samuel wide theres no alternative. Playing as a number 10 you need to offer an attacking threat and every time he got the ball he didnt know what to do. Cant help but be worried and unenthused at the prospect of watching us for the rest of the season with the current remaining players.

Views on Gallagher/Samuel wide, Armstrongs return to spending all game offside and Rankin Costello?

To be honest, we had been offside so many times all game that it was probably his instinct to put it up again!

Drab, limp performance and cant argue much with the defeat. Think it could be a sign of things to come regarding our attacking options going forward this season. I am absolutely flabbergasted that Mowbray watches Gallagher out wide and thinks it has ever worked well enough to repeat it. We ended the game with 2 strikers out wide and the only striker we have who can play that role was playing as a 10. Its infuriating, its not effective and its horrible to watch. Kudos to Samuel for putting in one of the most pathetic cameos of all time. If hes a better option than Chapman out wide... Rankin Costello is nowhere near at this time, he seemed overawed, a few times he had the ball and no clue of what to do with it, not particularly fast or technically good and not sure why he played central which sidelined Downing. Armstrong reverted back to trying to win the world record for offsides in a game. The amount of offsides across the board was embarassing. Johnson has been a dreadful signing, so poor on the ball. Travis, Nyambe, Lenihan and Downing were ok and Walton made a couple of routine saves but was really, really poor for the goal.

Its a bit of a logic leap to suggest that if we did achieve our aims and expectations of a top 6 finish, something that has correctly been pointed out as being incredibly unlikely as weve never been in the top 6 at any point, that people would just dismiss that by creating new expectations. There is no need to create theories up to back up a "moaners" based hypothesis that you have. For what its worth, it depends what you use as the barometer to gauge progression. Compared to this time last year, we are in exactly the same position so no progression. Conversely, we finished 15th and are currently 10th, so whilst we dont have a full season of evidence to accurately compare against, we have progressed. I think we definitely have progressed this season on the assumption that both squads were fit and healthy. The problem people keep flagging up is that the main upgrades ie Downing and Adarabioyo are temporary additions and if we assume that it is highly unlikely that we will have a sniff of promotion this year, then comparing summer to summer we have not really moved forward in terms of progressing slowly and incrementally towards the top 6 if it is done in such a way. Mowbray chose to spend his transfer budget solely on one player who has been a failure and not added to the potency of our attack. He also gave the green light to sell a young and flawed but talented goalkeeper but he did sign a talented player in Holtby who we have for another year. The signings targeted were mainly in the wide areas so were never direct replacements for Dack and the at the time fit and healthy Holtby. The wide areas have been an achilles heel throughout Mowbrays time in charge and we needed to strengthen there to add additional sources of goals with or without those players.

I totally agree with what you say and that there is blame to be given. But even if you chose to suggest that the restrictions and the market put things totally out of our hands, you can at least admit that it has been a poor window! Even Mowbray and Waggott said it was.

I am not even sure it is just the psychological pressure of being near the play offs, I just think that with all things levelled out we are mid table fodder at the moment. On a particularly poor run we might delve into lower mid table and I think went as low as 18th but never in serious danger of relegation, conversly after good form we might poke our head into the lower top half but again neve making it into the top 6, and ultimately we level out in the middle. Agree with the rest of your analysis though.

Johnson, Travis and Downing was your midfield 3 in the team you suggested. Has this change or are you just covering all bases?

No, he was 6 windows ago, I was referring to the last 4 windows in the Championship. I mentioned Dack as an obvious undeniable point of praise in my analaysis of Mowbray earlier.

They also played in that win so your argument is faulty. Bennett has proven time and time again that he isnt good enough. If I see his name on the team sheet tomorrow it would displease me.

Excuses, facts, reasons, whatever the reason, we didnt sign players that we needed and wanted. That makes the window a failure and based on the comments by Mowbray and Waggott they both would be the first to agree. I dont think anyone bar Mercer predicted any major sales. Ultimately we didnt end the window in the position we wanted to and hoped for at the start. You are manipulating the conversation to suggest that I want us to pay over the odds etc, but there are plenty of other players out there. We wanted tostrengthen and we didnt strengthen, its a simple as that.

Even if we go with a 433 Bennett should be well down the list of potential players. Using that isolated example as proof that Bennett should start tomorrow in midfield could also lead to Smallwood and Mulgrew starting tomorrow and us rueing the loss of Joe Nuttall.

You repeatedly refer back to that game as you know that it is the one home game that I missed last season! He was also integral to a dismal performance, probably our worst of the season at Home to Stoke playing centrally. He lacks any attacking or technical ability and is not a Championship standard player. Elliott Bennett should not be getting into our starting 11, and he is not in our best 3 central midfielders if we indeed go down the route of playing that formation. Bradley Johnson would be ahead of him and if we didnt play him, I would prefer to give Jacob Davenport a game, Bennett we know isnt capable at this level, Davenport supposedly has plenty of potential so why not?

Whatever the reasons and excuses are, it was a failure of a window, no matter how you try to dress it up or distract. Ultimately, Mowbray and Waggott both admitted as much. We required reinforcements, the manager wanted reinforcements, and he was unable to bring them in. No matter why or how, it was an unsuccessful window and not the first unsuccessful one. I am not saying that it is easy or that there arent hurdles to overcome but ultimately the failure to improve a team in need of improvements is a bad window. You dont need to be a fly on any wall to make that judgement and it seems that no one shares that opinion more than the 2 members of staff that you are defending. I am judging him based on tangible aspects of the club in which I can have an opinion on. There are various aspects to ticketing (and marketing) which I feel he has got wrong and which have helped lead to a repeated inability to hit various targets. You (or anyone) havent really explained what he has done that is positive aside from suggesting that his heart is in the right place which I dont doubt. I suppose ticketing failures are fairly unimportant though if he is kind enough to ask fellow employees how they are feeling! Like I said, I am sure he is a nice bloke but it is fairly irrelevant, just as it is with Mowbray.

I suppose the problem is, it is all well and good putting your hands up but you look at the last 4 windows, twice when supposedly gearing up for a sustained play off push, we have allowed transfer windows to lapse without strengthening, and in the last 2 summer ones, the vast majority of our budget has spent on 2 players who have not improved us at all, and actions speak louder than words. I dont doubt that some decent signings, Downing, Adarabioyo and Reed for example have been made during that time but they arent improving us long term. The only player that has improved us long term has been Armstrong and it is only really now that he is proving that on a sustained basis.

That would be interesting. To be fair, these sorts of events are all about gaining good PR arent they, basically showing your enthusiasm and getting the balance between saying everything the people in there want you to say to earn further leeway in the future whilst being as vague as possible and not making specific promises or statements that can come and bite you in the arse further down the line. The "defenders are coming" comment is a prime example of when Mowbray has tried to placate the fans and get them on side, which did work short term, but making such a strong and simplistic statement has then become a barometer for his future actions or inactions. I think its important to try and stay impartial and solely judge on what actually happens, rather than start moulding and changing your opinion around what is said here.

Agreed, they certainly are and his response doesnt inspire confidence that it will change. If it does, well done to him, if it doesnt then more fool him. If the team went into a tailspin and say went down for example, Waggott would not be the first man with his head on the block, Mowbray would do the answering and I am not saying this with any certainty but I suspect that having Waggott in between to somewhat fight his corner may be of benefit to him. That is one of the primary tangible aspects that we can judge him on and for me he has come up sadly lacking in that area. From his advertising campaigns and interviews he comes across as someone who is happy to try and remove himself of any responsibility, something which he was called out on in this meeting. Mowbray has earnt respect based on what he has done, even though as I have previously surmised, he has done some bad things too. I am not saying that Waggott has anything other than good intentions but I am struggling to name much if anything that he has done to warrant much respect or trust. I do appreciate that there is far more to judge a manager on.

Obviously there will have been an element of duress, and obviously he was never going to get a better job, but speaking in facts, he did resign (even if it was tactical on his part for financial reasons, or whatever) and thus we will never know whether the club would have sacked him otherwise. I am well aware of the legal action that followed etc but the fact of the matter is that Steve Kean resigned, Venkys never sacked him despite being consistently horrendous for such a long period of time.

Whether pressure to which extent we will never know how strong forced Kean out, it is a matter of fact that he wasnt sacked and it is rewriting history to deny that.

It would follow absolutely no logic to stick Bennett in the midfield 3, theres no need for him to be starting. Johnson is an actual central midfielder so surely he starts over Bennett.

I was talking specifically about the meeting. Our league position is 10th and our clearly stated aim is the top 6 so its nothing remarkable. I gave my view on the situation regarding Mowbray (basically sitting on the fence) earlier in this thread. Waggott I am unsure as to why he receives praise at a similar level because for me his ticketing policies have in the main failed.

With events like this I do think people sometimes get drawn in and carried away by the furore and enthusiasm shown, no one doubts especially Mowbrays passion but it is their competence and performance that should be evaluated. People were buzzing after the last one but things they said didnt really come to fruition. For example, many of the criticisms aimed at Waggott, surcharges, pricing, an aggressive marketing pitch etc contributing towards an inability to hit sales targets for example havent really been answered either way or solved. And we are no clearer regarding the issues around recruitment failures of the past. Obviously it would never be asked at such an event but I am not sure how healthy it is with Mowbray basically having a safe job as long as Waggott is here based on their previous relationship. Minor point but I really hope the option isnt taken on Bells contract, would be a backwards step.

Regarding finance I think its all hypothetical, I am not going to be under the impression that their desire to fund a promotion winning team has been taken out of their hands based on cryptic whispers. They didnt fund a promotion team even before FFP took hold. Even if these supposed players and staff did believe it, the only people who would know are Venkys themselves and their actions even prior to FFP suggest not. I dont doubt that Mowbray wants to do well nor ever have but its not enough or even particularly relevant in judging him as a manager. Nothing he says would really make a blind bit of difference to how I judge him to be honest, that will solely be on results and performance. You mention the available finance but thats what many people have become concerned and critical, the main money has been wasted, like I said yesterday at the end of this season I am unconvinced if the squad is in much if any better shape compared to a year ago and the main difference is not the players he has spent big money on, its perhaps the likes of Nyambe and Travis having a year of further development. I find Mowbrays position one lacking clarity in terms of my own opinion if I am honest. I have grateful for what he has done in parts so far, especially the promotion season. There are certain individual things, signing Dack, to a lesser extent Armstrong, promoting and developing Travis etc that I think are very impressive. There are obvious signs (reliant on the temporary additions of Adarabioyo and Downing) that suggest a tangible change of style. The expectations are the play offs, and we have not yet been realistically right in the frame. And he has had 2 major investment opportunities that he couldnt have handled any worse. Has he done enough to convince me that we will move forward enough to be capable of a top 6 finish any time soon under him and he is capable of spending any significant money if and when it comes his way again? Probably not. Equally, has he stagnated enough overall to warrant me actively wanting him out and replaced? No I wouldnt say he has. Weve heard what he has said in the past at these meetings that hasnt really come to fruition so its all action based judgement and I am in the middle as it stands I think.

Surely as @Mattyblue points out that results should dictate how long he is here for, not how much desire and passion he showed in a 10 minute chat with you. Still not convinced either that Venkys would fund us to promote but are being prevented by red tape. I suppose we will never know for sure either way but its incredibly naive to suggest that.