Been really poor that first half, totally outclassed. Full backs and the front 3 particularly poor.

I certainly dont blame Mowbray for the relegation. He didnt save us from it and thus failed his difficult task but hes at the back of the queue in terms of blame overall. I also think promotion and stability were the expectations in the next 2 seasons. Achieved by Mowbray both times and meeting but not particularly exceeding expectations is not a negative at all. Many managers have lost jobs for not doing so. The fact that he met those expectations means I am very fond of him and hold a positive opinion of his time in charge.

I expect us to borrow someone again.

Be very difficult to discard crap especially in this economic climate.

Absolutely. Designated/preferred seats will surely become an illogical luxury short term due to the spacing.

I dont see how there is any solution around the desire to keep your seat in the short term, assuming limited capacties. It is a strange one in terms of season tickets for this eventuality. Maybe allow people to select seats as normal but whilst capacity is limited, I dont see how people can select seats, surely it would be just go in the order that you enter the ground.

Same team youd have to say. Obviously we need 4 wins and results elsewhere so our chance is 1 in a million to sneak 6th and I dont think anyone realistically thinks it will happen. Tough game though and I cant see past an away win sadly. West Brom are a quality side. I think Rankin Costello could have a long afternoon against one of a series of quality wingers.

I must say that I find your attitude towards players who have spent time on loans to be a strange one, loan spells are a very valid development route and it doesnt suggest that the player is unwanted or not rated, often quite the opposite. Also 23 years old for a centre back is not old, hes not ready for the scrapheap. For him to have been successful playing in Leagues when he has been growing into his body against experienced pros knocking him about is good for his development. You mention Buckley, he hasnt really transitioned fully into the first team and could do with a loan. Would a loan mean that is it for him here and he is not rated? Not at all. The argument about him starting on the opening day is a strawman argument too as no one has said that. The common consensus has been, can Wharton come back and be part of the squad. Even you acknowledged that by comparing him to Derrick Williams which was a bizarre comparison. We have one contracted very competent centre back, and one injury prone and below average one who also covers left back. We have little money, of course we need to sign a main centre back to replace Adarabioyo externally, but Wharton is at least worth considering as a squad player with plenty of football now under his belt.

He did play up front quite a lot in the first half of the season and was still poor to be fair. But he definitely has played wide much of the time especially lately.

Behave. My issue is not saying that Mowbray was to blame for relegation. Venkys and Coyle are the main 2 to blame. I just think its a load of bollocks to say that a task he had, a very difficult task, which he failed to do, just, should be viewed as anything other than that, a difficult job failed, rather than praising him based on flawed and irrelevant points per game extrapolations. You cannot stretch his points tally over the season, its not accurate and it never happened. The fact of the matter is that if he got one more point, he would have succeeded at a difficult task. As he didnt, he failed. That didnt mean I wanted him out at that point, I was happy that he remained, I had seen enough to suggest that he was the man to continue and he was, but he did fail that task. He then succeeded at promotion and then stability the following season. I am not even 100% convinced that I want Mowbray to go and even if he did, I would say that hes done a good job and I would look back fondly at his time. So to suggest I dont like him is not true at all.

Again you are comparing to a 4 game period whereby a manager would have not just a quite difficult but practically impossible task to get us into the top 6. Mowbray had a difficult task but a doable one over 15 or 16 games. He came as close as is possible without succeeding but he was unsuccessful. A good, successful points haul was 1 more than he got. Extrapolating results isnt accurate. He had new manager bounce over a set of players who were probably delighted to see the back of Coyle. We had games v teams with nothing to play for. There are numerous factors in why it is not an accurate measurement. Like i said, Liverpool last season or the Arsenal invincibles, who had the better season? And would you say that he did better in that season than last season where we picked up 1.27 points per game? Footballs about league positions, not points per game in spells.a

They are totally incomparable situations. Norwich can be mathematically relegated in their next game, Mowbray took over in February and we hadnt been cut adrift. Ive never claimed he inherited an easy job, it was difficult but he failed the job he tried to do. Its that simple. You cant extrapolate results of a small part of the season, playing only certain fixtures including a few at the end v teams with nothing to play for, its not accurate. One more point and hed have done it so he will close but not close enough. Im not saying either that he did a horrendous job where there was no hope gathered from his management. But he came to do something and failed, just.

Just to go on a slight tangent. I don't agree that Mowbray did obtain a very good points return in that relegation season. It is pretty black and white, for example did Liverpool have a better points tally last season (97 points) than the Invincibles Arsenal team? (90 points) No because Arsenal in that season got the points required to win the league, and Liverpool didnt. A very good point return would have been enough to keep us up that season, how many points that would have been required in other seasons, or how many points we would have ended on were the results from that chunk of games extrapolated across 46 games, its all speculative, meaningless and irrelevant. This shouldnt be twisted into me giving Mowbray most of the blame for that season, obviously not, but he failed to do the (difficult) task he set out to do. I would argue that this season is the most difficult in terms of setting tangible expectations, therefore its much more subjective. First season, the requirement was keeping us up, which he failed. Second season, the minimum requirement was promotion, which was achieved. Third season, minimum expectation is stability, again achieved. This season, some might think one point extra is a good achievement, some might think top 6 is the minimum achievement, which I think creates much more debate.

Whatever the supposed thought process is, it hasnt worked.

Once we get into a habit of giving below par players like Bell and Samuel a new deal then it starts to increase expenditure on below par players. Sadly weve already extended Bell's deal. Even as a wing back he isnt up to it as hes never been effective going forward. He dithers and turns back basically every time. Samuel was not very good even in League 1. Cant be giving him a new deal on the back of a solitary decent performance and goal. Not up to it.

Do you think out of interest that Venkys are genuinely waiting to give Mowbray his budget until "they know what league we are in" baring in mind Mowbray is totally in the dark regarding even when he will find out what budget based on his interviews? Or do you think its more a case that we are well down Venkys list of priorities and due to their inefficient and illogical ways of working that they have not given us a second thought?

Linear progression doesnt mean too much in terms of jumping up a few mid table positions, its very rare that you keep your team together for long enough to gradually creep up the table year on year to get promotion. But obviously that Cardiff result has changed a fluid situation that will change further in the last 4 games. We are still a point off last seasons tally, before Tuesday night it looked quite likely that we wouldnt beat that 60 point tally, in which case any progression becomes difficult to argue. So it all depends by how many if any we do beat last seasons point tally. I think the fear is stagnation and following that, regression. It is difficult to consider us a genuine play off contender this season on account of us NEVER having broken that barrier and getting into the top 6 even once. Even now, we are clinging onto the remote hope that we win 4, and numerous other teams drop varying numbers of points. Throw in the mix the aforementioned huge purchases, amounts of money it is impossible not to think what it could have done was it not poured down the drain, and numerous areas of tactical confusion and players out of position and it does make it easy to ask questions. He has been here longer than any other manager in the division, and to get promoted you need a season above expectations. is he capable of that? Unconvinced. Some who are defensive of Mowbray are keen to make out as if we are a small fish in a massive pond, fighting against the tide with miniscule resources but that isnt true due to the reasons I outlined earlier in the thread.

Whatever happened to getting the best man to get the best results? Fancy football, bring through the kids, head coaches, CEO's getting involved in the playing situation, just get the best manager in and get the best results, so many keen to overcomplicate. If that is how Birmingham is run, then they will be going nowhere upwards anytime soon. Nor if they appoint someone like Robbie Fowler.

Not a surprise. Strange appointment, strange to keep him on after announcing his arrival. Bristol City seemingly about to appoint Hughton. Would be a terrific appointment and put them right up near the contenders next season I suspect.

People always put too much into statements like these. I don't ever recall a manager coming out and saying "we've loaned him out because we dont rate him and are trying to put him in the shop window enough for a lower league club to buy him." All I do know is that Walton is nowhere near being Premier League quality. He is below average in a League with a poor overall standard of goalkeeping. He must have gone into double figures now in terms of goals he should have prevented. Even in his best run of form he was solid rather than stand out, hes not the type that will keep you in games.

Curtis would be much more favourable considering he would be a permanent signing but I doubt we can afford to pay for players this summer.

Unrealistic to expect them all to break through in the near future I would suggest and become regulars. Would be worth loaning out Vale, and maybe Butterworth who can play games to make up for lost time. The other 2 are already in and around without fully establishing themselves but even Buckley has Holtby and soon Dack ahead of him. You mention Carter but he cant be that close otherwise Mowbray wouldnt have gone against his previous comments and dusted Mulgrew down v Barnsley. Magloire and Grayson have only played kids football since looking wet behind the ears when they got a taste last time so Wharton out of them all stands out but is he good enough to be in a Championship squad? No idea. Wish we could have cut the inadequate Bell free when we had the chance too.

I dont think he knows anything Chaddy. Think hes just a new journalist sort of re hashing what he can piece together. Either way we all know how farcical the situation is. Its really annoying that both Williams and now Bell are contracted into next season. Neither good enough and now both seemingly injury prone. Had the chance to free up some vital resources but sadly we hand out new contracts to players we shouldnt like confetti. Has to stop.

Its looking like 5 subs are going to carry on into next season. For me that would be a dreadful idea.

You seem quite dismissive of players who are still young but get to 22/23 or those who go out on loan or who have had senior experience such as Davenport and Chapman in the past. Unsure if maybe its an element of bias towards those youve spent time watching when you go and watch the reserves. Players take different paths, Lenihan had a loan spell and the whole purpose is to develop them more than U23 football ever could. I cant say I have seen Wharton play for Northampton, maybe you have? But 3 promotions seems a little more than decent and lets not forget he is still very young and growing/bulking up physically. Im not saying that he should come back to us but hes in by far the best position out of the young defenders to come in when money is tight and add some potential cover. Whether hes good enough I have no idea but it seems remiss to write him off as if hes ready for the scrapheap because hes soon turning 23 (years off his peak) and because hes had some very successful loans. Absolutely no chance whatsoever that Rankin Costello has performed as well as Travis breaking in either. If you think back Travis was man of the match on his home debut and he stood out in his first few games. On Rankin Costello's first team starts our opinions differ, I would say his first 3 starts were ineffective, ineffective shaky and assured yesterday, but I cant see how anyone could imply that he stood out like Travis did.