[Archived] Champions League

[CAPT KAYOS]

. I cannot see any true entertainment value in the CL........Now when it was the Champions Cup things were different

European Cup.

Agree. This knockout stage is how the old European Cup used to be in every round: exciting cup football played by the champion team of each country (not the top 3/4 in each league).

European Cup nights were always big nights, eagerly awaited occasions with huge crowds. Now ManU v Juventus or whoever is so commonplace no one cares. A case of familiarity breeding contempt.

The Champions League is one of the principal reasons why football is going down the drain. It is responsible for:

1. The reduced status of international football. Top players are knackered at the finals of the World Cup and European Championships resulting in triumphs by well-organised nonentitities such as Greece.

In addition, England friendly internationals, hitherto seen as an honour for the players chosen to represent their country, are regarded as "meaningless" because top players are too tired/injured to take part.

2. The reduce status of the great institution of English football, the FA Cup (viz CL teams fielding virtual reserve teams)

3. The reduced status of the Uefa Cup, Europe's No 2 club competition and formerly considered harder to win than the European Cup.

4. The demise of the European Cup Winners Cup, an excellent competition axed to make way for the CL.

5. As Kevin Keegan said, a boring Premiership in which the top 3/4 teams always dominate with the rest seeking to avoid relegation by playing dull safety first football in which the principal object is not to lose and the promoted teams know they are virtually certain to go back down again.

6. As Paul mentioned, the concentration of even more money and power in the hands of Europe's top clubs, leading to the G14 cartel who are virtually running the European game for their own selfish benefits.

7. Boring saturation CL coverage on television, turning fans off football in general.

The Champions League is the worst thing to happen to football in the past 50 years, worse even than the abolition of the maximum wage in the early 1960s. It, and television, will ruin the professional game in the long term.

Grooby for Jim

Yikes... that has got to have been your best ever post Jimbo

Watch all the bricks fly in my direction now!!

Champions league - boring predictable mini league football for the rich Elite of Europe to line their pokets even more

[broadsword]

And what's worse (almost) is the cheer-leading on ITV!

I'm sure they try to be subtle in their bias, but it shows through so obviously, especially that Tyldesley prat.

[den]

Good post Jim.

I did start a new topic a while ago about the way the focus of the top English sides has changed over recent years. I don't think anyone took in what I was really trying to say [my fault]. I was trying to stress how the top clubs now, are more than willing to see the demise of all the other premiership sides. Chelsea would be more than happy to see Arsenal, Man U, Blackburn, or any other club go to the wall, in order to enhance their chances of competing regularly in the Champions league. They aren't interested in any other competition.

The same goes for Arsenal and Man U. It wasn't always like that, but it is now. I am pretty certain, the only reason they play in the Prem, is to gain access to Europe. Otherwise they'd be off.

That's partly why, I find it difficult to support those English sides when they do play in the C.L.

[Paul]

. I cannot see any true entertainment value in the CL........Now when it was the Champions Cup things were different

European Cup.

Yes sorry European Cup. Great post jim.

I still remember the excitment of the Lions of Lisbon and Utd winning at Wembley even though it's near on 40 years ago. Those grainy pictures of Celtic, almost unwatchable. Utd at Wembley. Both fantastic nights.

I'll have forgotten Chelsea's match by Sunday. Familiarity does breed contempt. There was even a time I used to watch out for Celtic - Rangers but not anymore. There are very, very few great games these days and I doubt we will ever see those fabulous European nights return?

[Scotty]

Absolutely spot on Jim. The Champions League is an awful, awful competition. Yes, there may be the odd exciting match (although there's not too many before the knockout stages), but what this competition is doing for football as a whole is obscene.

I mean, finishing 4th in the league is now considered more important to the clubs than winning the FA Cup ffs!

[jim mk2]

Good post Jim.

I did start a new topic a while ago about the way the focus of the top English sides has changed over recent years. I don't think anyone took in what I was really trying to say [my fault]. I was trying to stress how the top clubs now, are more than willing to see the demise of all the other premiership sides. Chelsea would be more than happy to see Arsenal, Man U, Blackburn, or any other club go to the wall, in order to enhance their chances of competing regularly in the Champions league. They aren't interested in any other competition.

The same goes for Arsenal and Man U. It wasn't always like that, but it is now. I am pretty certain, the only reason they play in the Prem, is to gain access to Europe. Otherwise they'd be off.

That's partly why, I find it difficult to support those English sides when they do play in the C.L.

It is why Liverpool are so desperate to play in the CL next season.

If they don't it is almost certain Gerrard will leave for Chelsea, contentrating power in the top three even further.

For those clubs playing in the Uefa Cup is seen as failure when it used to be a fantastic competition in itself.

I used to support all the English teams in Europe. It was a matter a national pride.

Not any more: I cheered when Bayern knocked out Arsenal and I laughed when Milan wiped the smile off Fergie's face. Shame about Barcelona and Leverkusen.

It shouldn't be like that, but that's the way the Champions League makes me feel.

[Paul]

Just discovered today that 4th place in the league might not guarantee a CL place. Should Liverpool win the CL the FA can recommend they qualify for next season at the expense of the fourth placed team. Now that could go down well on Merseyside

The winners do not automatically qualify.

[SouthAussieRover]

. I cannot see any true entertainment value in the CL........Now when it was the Champions Cup things were different

European Cup.

Yes sorry European Cup. Great post jim.

I still remember the excitment of the Lions of Lisbon and Utd winning at Wembley even though it's near on 40 years ago. Those grainy pictures of Celtic, almost unwatchable. Utd at Wembley. Both fantastic nights.

I'll have forgotten Chelsea's match by Sunday. Familiarity does breed contempt. There was even a time I used to watch out for Celtic - Rangers but not anymore. There are very, very few great games these days and I doubt we will ever see those fabulous European nights return?

But we aren't talking about European Cup Finals or Old Firm games are we?

We are trying to compare great games from the present qualifing/knockout rounds vs those from the past?

[Paul]

I was just reminiscing about exciting football used to be and how with increased media attention that has disappeared. European nights were great nights because they came around 3 or 4 times a season, or so it seemed. Now there seems to be something every week and it's very boring. On the otherhand I'm getting older

[SouthAussieRover]

I was just reminiscing about exciting football used to be and how with increased media attention that has disappeared. European nights were great nights because they came around 3 or 4 times a season, or so it seemed. Now there seems to be something every week and it's very boring. On the otherhand I'm getting older

Maybe so and we are all getting older

However there is no denying the fact that Chelsea vs Barcelona was a great game and two England internationals played very well. Surely that's promising. Btw I really enjoyed Liverpool vs Borrussia Mongencladbach ?1977 in Rome.

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

the concentration of even more money and power in the hands of Europe's top clubs, leading to the G14 cartel who are virtually running the European game for their own selfish benefits.

This is probably the most disturbing aspect of the Champions League for me. The G14 group carries an enormous amount of clout and they threaten the healthy future of the game.

The original 14 members are: Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Juventus, Man United, Liverpool, Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Porto, Ajax, PSV Eindhoven, Marseille and Paris Saint-Germain.

In 2002, following pleas from David Dein, four more clubs were invited to join - Arsenal, Valencia, Bayer Leverkusen and Lyon.

Peter Kenyon is naturally keen to sign up Chelsea as well, and it's almost certain that Chelsea will be invited before long. Freddie Shepherd at Newcastle has also been throwing his considerable weight around to try to get the Geordies invited around the table. (Such a massive club Newcastle - they haven't won the League since the 1920's!)

The G14 clubs (18 of them) say their aim is to "promote and safeguard the general interests of the member clubs."

In other words - maximise their own revenue and sod everyone else.

That's why Peter Kenyon (while at Man United) said that he'd be happy to see 50 of the smallest clubs in England fold. Kenyon said that ideally he'd like to see 40 of the biggest English clubs streamlined into two Divisions.

European nights were great nights

They used to be. Between 1977 and 1984, English clubs (Liverpool, Forest and Villa) won seven out of eight European Cups during this period.

England and Italy have both won the most number of European trophies - 27 each. (In England's case - One Champions League, 8 European Cups, 8 Cup Winners Cups and 10 UEFA Cups.)

Spain are close behind with 26 trophies.

But when you take into account the ban on English clubs between 1985-1990, it illustrates just how much England used to dominate European competition.

A total of 13 different English clubs have won trophies in Europe - Liverpool (7 wins), Man United (3 wins), Spurs (3 wins), Nottingham Forest (2), Arsenal (2), Leeds (2), Chelsea (2), Ipswich Town (1), Aston Villa (1), Everton (1), Newcastle (1), Man City (1) and West Ham (1).

13 is the best record of any nation. Our nearest rivals are Italy, where nine different clubs have won European trophies - AC Milan, Juventus, Inter Milan, Parma, Lazio, Sampdoria, Fiorentina, Roma and Napoli.

The six year ban on English clubs proved to be very costly. The continental clubs improved their tactics and fitness, while English clubs went into decline.

While out of European competition between 1985 and 1990, a number of English clubs played a direct style of football in the League. We had teams during this period like Wimbledon, Sheffield Wednesday and Southampton who got the ball forward as quickly as possible.

And so when the English clubs returned to Europe, they weren't used to playing many games against good quality passing sides who kept the ball well and were quick on the counter-attack. The English clubs got used to defending against aerial bombardment rather than quality attacking play.

Since returning to Europe after the ban, only once (Man Utd in 1999) has an English club reached the final of the Champions League.

It's inconceivable that clubs like Ipswich and West Ham could win a European trophy now. The domination of football by the elite has gone too far. The G14 have got their way, and supporters of smaller clubs have suffered.

Edited March 10, 2005 by Anti Euro Smiths Fan

[jkritchey]

That was very informative, thank you.

[andy82]

Peter Kenyon (while at Man United) said that he'd be happy to see 50 of the smallest clubs in England fold. Kenyon said that ideally he'd like to see 40 of the biggest English clubs streamlined into two Divisions.

it would be illegal for him to say anything else surely - he could be done for misappropriation of shareholders investment a la Henry Ford.

[joey_big_nose]

The original 14 members are: Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Juventus, Man United, Liverpool, Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Porto, Ajax, PSV Eindhoven, Marseille and Paris Saint-Germain.

In 2002, following pleas from David Dein, four more clubs were invited to join - Arsenal, Valencia, Bayer Leverkusen and Lyon.

And what is even more scary is that you would assume that 14 clubs like that could not all continue to dominate their respective leagues without a few dropping away.

There are only a few exceptions: PSG, Dortmund, Liverpool and Marsille have all moved around a bit. All the others it is extremely unlikely that they will finish outside the top four in their league every year.

Even the clubs in the G14 must realise this will hurt supporter interest...

[philipl]

AESF- excellent post. The link between long ball in Div 1 and bannishment from Europe is a very good one- it was also the time that the likes of Brighton, Oxford, Watford, Luton, Wimbledon, Notts County and Oldham all graced the top division with greater or lesser distinction.

One problem though- Chelsea have publicly stated they do not want to join the G14. Presumably because Abramovich is the G1.

Sheppard of course is the G1t.

[tashor]

In other words - maximise their own revenue and sod everyone else.

" sod " -

Definition....

" A bit of turf - on a football pitch - for example "

" To shaft up the fleuklerin' 'Rsole "

" Barsteuwared that we all despise "

etc.........etc...........etc.....etc...........

[ from the Royal tashorian dictionary ( official offensive version ) ]

[philipl]

Gordon Strachan bemoans the results. As always he makes some very good points. Premiership results were a mixed bag but in the Italy v Spain confrontations, Italy seems well on top.

End for the galacticos? Real face the problems- maybe? What has gone unnoticed in the focus on Owen's bench warming has been Gravesen being close to an ever-present starter and finisher of games for Real since he moved from Everton.

[philipl]

A very interesting summary of the round from the Observer. I think he is correct- I had expected at least four titanic classic games amongst the sixteen when the draw came out but in the event only Stamford Bridge produced the goods.

[tashor]

Ooohh Phileap......

....Titter ye not

[tashor]

Mark Hughes is 16/1 with the bookies to be the next manager at Old Trafford after United chief executive David Gill said that Alex Ferguson is "sackable."

Gill told Radio 5: "We live in a very pressurised sport. The pressure will be on next season and we wouldn't want that pressure not to be there."

Martin O'Neill and Carlos Queiroz are the two favourites for the job. Queiroz has been identified recently by Ferguson as his possible successor, while O'Neill is believed to covet the Old Trafford job.

The latest odds with bookies Paddy Power are:

2/1 Martin O'Neill

5/2 Carlos Queiroz

10/1 Sven Goran Eriksson

10/1 Steve McClaren

10/1 Ottmar Hitzfeld

10/1 David Moyes

14/1 Fabio Capello

16/1 Mark Hughes

16/1 Roy Keane

18/1 Steve Bruce

25/1 Gordon Strachan

33/1 Louis Van Gaal

Meanwhile, the Red Scum have called for a seeding system in the Champions League last 16 to try to ensure that the biggest clubs remain in the quarter-final. United chief David Gill says that the Champions League doesn't benefit the rich clubs enough!

Gill said that the knock-out system in the last 16 is "not good for the big clubs and not good for TV and sponsors," after United were beaten earlier this month by AC Milan.

The Sham-pions League is already a big cartel for the rich clubs - but now it seems as if the big clubs want to be virtually guaranteed a passage into the last 8....

Arsene Wenger agrees with Gill. He says: "You can't afford to have Real Madrid and Manchester United - big clubs who invest so much money - going out in the last 16."

Seems as if the rich clubs want an even bigger slice of the cake - with the others left with hardly any crumbs at all.

Link below:

Man United call for European revamp

[neekoy]

This is becoming a joke, "You can't afford to have Real Madrid and Manchester United - big clubs who invest so much money - going out in the last 16."

Why is that Mr Wenger, because your not good enough to get your team there under normal circumstances?

Being guaranteed champions league through domestic comps not good enough?

As Monaco proved you don't need massive investment to make it big, I can't wait until Platini comes in and changes it to a 256 team knockout

[AussieinUk]

...I can't wait until Platini comes in and changes it to a 256 team knockout

Is it Platini or Beckenbauer (sp?) that wants to introduce more technology in the game?

[neekoy]

Platini is against technology

[AussieinUk]

Platini is against technology

Then IMHO - Beckenbauer (sp?) is the man for the Job!!

[waggy]

on the subject off champions league good to see chelski go through,but what about these italians.

the milan derby abondoned because off missiles,this after the ref getting hit at roma earlier this season,these ities need banning,god help the scallies tomorrow