Major Incident In London

[philipl]

The 500 leading British Muslim clerics have put aside their own denominational divisions and issued a fatwah declaring suicide bombing a crime and not a route to martyrdom and heaven. And before anyone jumps in, this is simply a reiteration of what is in Koran and not some new invention to please Tony Blair. When did the Irish Churches ever issue so authoritative, united and unambiguous a condemnation of Irish terrorism?

Picking up on two threads from yesterday- Chatham House is an independent foreign policy research establishment and not a Government body. Their report focussed on the diversion of British intelligence efforts towards Irish terrorism and animal liberation threats when the threat of Islamic fundamentalism was becoming apparent in the 1990's. As a result, the intelligence communities are very under-prepared for handling the situation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Qaida sympathisers in the West.

The report argues that Britain was unable to influence USA policy on Iraq even in areas where the USA was totally half-baked: the preparation and policy for the victory and post-war pacification of Iraq. It argues that Britain's inability to influence the USA Administration to avoid the blundering mistakes made (e.g. there is $8.5 billions of USA Government cash hand outs unaccounted for- quite possibly making the USA military deeply corrupt in the process) despite saving Bush from total isolation on Iraq, has made Britain a uniquely vulnerable target for a violent backlash.

The second thread is that Islam is aggressively designed to grow (so is Christianity for that matter if you read the Bible) and nation-phobic. The nation state is very much a Western Christian invention- Iraq itself is a product of map drawing in Whitehall in 1921 and bears little relationship to historic divisions or tribal, ethnic or religious reality on the ground.

It is worth pointing out that the current USA Administration owes its election to, and is most influenced by, Christian Fundamentalist sects which:

- claim prime sovereignty for God over nation states

- refute scientific evidence and wish to set back scientific advance in areas which conflict with their theology

- are aggressively recruiting new converts

- reveres martyrs

- favour physical punishments and the death penalty

Sounds familiar?

It is trite to say it, but the Christians nut cases are a lot closer to trying to run the world through their man in the White House than the currently much more unsavoury Islamic nut cases.

The fundamentalist Christian right cause as much despair for Christians like me as the fundamentalist radical Islamic elements do for the majority of Muslems.

A final point, the Koran is a massive assemblage of literature/ revealed truth created over millenia in the same way that the Bible is. Both Holy Books contain material which is deeply disturbing to modern society- according to the Bible, employers should nail the ears of employees to the door for instance (that's in Exodus or Deuteronomy)!

The key point is both fundamentally espouse a life of peace, love and piety.

The argument that one is superior and the Koran is inimcable with universal suffrage, democracy and equity between the sexes is utterly specious in my opinion. Amongst the most enlightened rulers in Europe were the Moors of Spain who presided over a society of exceptional advancement and tolerance, bequeathing some of the most stunning architecture in the world and, arguably in Aberlane, the philosophical father of the Renaissance. It was the Christians who expelled the Jews and brought in the Inquisition.

Edited July 19, 2005 by philipl

[neekoy]

At least Joseph Whitechristian isn't wearing a bomb jacket and killing innocent people

I would rather him try to bash me with his bible then have some jihad jihad coward blow me up on my way to work

[philipl]

Joseph Whitechristian blew up 3,000 during the Irish "troubles". I was in Hyde Park when they blew up the soldiers and horses.

Why do you think London reacted so stoically to the outrage of 7 July? The city has had a lot of practise at handling terrorist attrocities over the past thirty years.

Joseph Whitechristian massacred 8,000 boys and men in Srebrenica just ten years ago plus were undoubtedly the aggressors (Catholic or Orthodox) in the break-up of the former Yugoslavia.

Edited July 19, 2005 by philipl

[broadsword]

Just read on the Beeb that more than 25k civilians have died since the US went in - horrendous.

[blue phil]

The report argues that Britain was unable to influence USA policy on Iraq even in areas where the USA was totally half-baked: the preparation and policy for the victory and post-war pacification of Iraq. It argues that Britain's inability to influence the USA Administration to avoid the blundering mistakes made (e.g. there is $8.5 billions of USA Government cash hand outs unaccounted for- quite possibly making the USA military deeply corrupt in the process) despite saving Bush from total isolation on Iraq, has made Britain a uniquely vulnerable target for a violent backlash.   

333299[/snapback]

Go on then , brainbox ; tell us all why you so vociferous in your support of the US led invasion of Iraq . Why did someone who calls himself a liberal support this carnage and while you're at it tell us all why you didn't have the foresight to see what a quagmire it would become , and why you couldn't see that it would inevitably cost many innocent lives not only over there but here as well ..?

[Flopsy]

your awfully quick to call people stupid at the moment - did that test to see whether you should be earning more in your job, show that you were in fact underqualified to clean floors?

[Drummer Boy]

The invasion of Iraq was something I was not in favour of; however, comparing the number of innocent civilians subsequently killed with those who were systematically killed by the Saddam Hussein regime, including those fed to lions by his sons does make me consider the merits of the invasion - overall, more people can go about their business than would otherwise be the case.

That the post-invasion strategy was badly planned, if at all, is clear unless of course we take the somewhat conspiracy theory that Dubya wanted to flush the Islamic militants into one theatre so he could take them on several thousand miles from the US.

As for the "who's killed the most" debate - isn't it meaningless? In my mind, there can be no doubt that over hundreds of years great evil has been perpetrated by those who claim to be acting in the name of their god, though I have yet to be introduced to any religious creed that advocates such atrocities, including Muslim and Christian - two religions who have peace, tolerance and respect at their core.

Both religions have been, and continue to be, @#/?ised by people with other more sinister agendas who are either incapable of interpreting their chosen holy word or have no time for it and merely seek some form of power shift, at whatever cost.

What does strike me, though, is the link between violent acts carried out in the name of religion and the associated perception of oppression/discrimination. Whilst non-religious, this is perhaps a greater driver - many Muslims feel oppressed or feel oppression of their faith/culture in different parts of the world notably in the former Palestine. In a similar vein, many Catholics felt oppressed in the North of Ireland a few decades ago. The common feature? Why, the emergence of freedom fighters/terrorists (delete as applicable) to fight the oppressors and act as a totem for disaffected others (preferably young, idealistic and angry). In both cases, religion is merely a conduit for a perception of secular issues within a group of people that happen to share a faith and a feeling of being dealt a bad hand.

What's the point of all this? Well, amidst the discussion, debate, slanging matches and occasional abuse on this thread, it occurs to me that the attack in London had little to do with religion other than to act as a conduit for a deeper underlying issue. The real issue to me is that we fail to see this and start to make the situation worse by driving ordinary Muslims into extremism as a result of kneejerk reactions to the attack - in much the same way that Bloody Sunday was a great recruitment drive for the IRA 30 years ago.

Pick on Muslims as the cause of the attack and we perpetuate the problem - understand the underlying non-religious causes (Middle East, Israel's existence, Palestine's semi-existence) and try to address that and we will make progress. Recent US non-military policy in the region seems to be at last addressing this as typified by the aid figures bandied around earlier on this thread and a more balanced approach to relations with both Israel and her neighbours; unfortunately, there are decades of baggage to dispose of first.

This is not easy as man basically exists in comparative advantage to his fellow man all over the world, so perceived opporession can be seen readily if you want to look for it - the last 800 years between Christian and Muslim is a salutory reminder of this situation.

[blue phil]

your awfully quick to call people stupid at the moment

333496[/snapback]

I never used the word "stupid" - you did !

[blue phil]

What does strike me, though, is the link between violent acts carried out in the name of religion and the associated perception of oppression/discrimination. Whilst non-religious, this is perhaps a greater driver - many Muslims feel oppressed or feel oppression of their faith/culture in different parts of the world notably in the former Palestine. In a similar vein, many Catholics felt oppressed in the North of Ireland a few decades ago. The common feature? Why, the emergence of freedom fighters/terrorists (delete as applicable) to fight the oppressors and act as a totem for disaffected others (preferably young, idealistic and angry). In both cases, religion is merely a conduit for a perception of secular issues within a group of people that happen to share a faith and a feeling of being dealt a bad hand.

333504[/snapback]

Where I would disagree with you , DB , is the extent to which religion is central to the lives of Muslims as opposed to ourselves in the West where secularism is utterly dominant and the role of the church has been eroded over the last centuries (and decades in particular) . The influence of the Mosque and the way Islam is interpretated can't really be compared to the role of the churches in N Ireland during the troubles . Essentially the IRA and the loyalists had differing , but yet attainable , political goals , ie , which nation state they belonged - or should belong - to . Islam is a supra national force and the goal the militants seek is not within our power to give for their enemy is our very way of life itself - we are a Godless society and the laws of Allah must be imposed accordingly .

Whilst the situation in Iraq and the Middle East obviously exacerbates the tensions over here and the resolution of the problems would help somewhat , I agree with those who argue that other grievances would take their place . The root of the problem is the indoctrination of Muslims from an early and impressionable age into a belief system that is more than a mere "choice" faith as we know it but a central pillar of their whole culture . Now give power to radical "elders" and leaders in the mosques and you get the recipe for endless trouble .

The trouble can only be truly solved when moderates displace the radicals at all levels of the educational lives of young Muslims . At the moment there is no sign of that at all IMO .

[Drummer Boy]

Blue Phil,

I accept the Ireland analogy may not be the best when you look at it the way you suggest; however, I struggle with the concept that Islam is any more supra-national than Judaism or Christianity.

I remain unsure that the goals of the Irish were any more attainable than those of Islamic militants, or certainly seemed that way to those involved.

But your points make me think about if other religions have been supra-national and in what circumstances: Christian missionaries (or were they simply looters/slave traders with a licence?), Jewish migrants in Eastern Europe - communities within communities. Is it possible that religion becomes more important to people, perhaps even to the point of fundamental, when they have fewer wordly trappings to otherwise distract them? This would explain the cycle of fundamentalism across different religions - most Christian countries in the Northern hemisphere are relatively better off than they were fifty years ago and have become coincidentally more secular? The same cannot be said for the vast majority of people living in Islamic countries, I believe.

If you combine this with the idealism of the young and angry who feel oppressed, even if they are not by the standards of the country in which they live, the argument still holds water in helping to understand, rather than excuse, the attacks last week and starts to allow us to address the causes rather than the symptoms.

I totally agree with you about the need for moderates to usurp radicals and that this is the biggest single responsibility of the Muslim community in the UK over the coming weeks/months - and to do it visibly in the eyes of their fellow non-Muslim citizens.

[dave birch]

A little bit of sanity down our neck of the woods......

The local Muslim leader has called for those that promote violence and murder to be deported.

I realise that many in the muslim faith abhor violence, at last one of their Religious leaders has openly denounced the way that some of Islam's followers have practised their faith.

May some of the followers of Christianity, Judaism, Hindu, Buhddism find their true roots and show kindness and compassion to their fellow travellers on this earth.

After all, you're a long, long time dead. Each one of us deserves to enjoy the time we have.

[thenodrog]

A little bit of sanity down our neck of the woods......

The local Muslim leader has called for those that promote violence and murder to be deported.

333641[/snapback]

Great idea Dave! ..........But err..... where to? Unless we've recently opened up an interplanetary highway to Mars its not solving the problem its just laying it on somebody elses doorstep.

Maybe a secure detention centre in the middle of the Great Gibson Desert might be more appropriate.......... and effective. A sort of Camp Delta with funnel-webs!

[Bazzathegreat]

There can be no comparison made between the root cause of the current global conflict to that of Nothern Ireland, this is due to mega complexaties of the issue , the Ira for example had a political wing and had the capacity to discuss the issues faced by all sides in the Northern Ireland civil conflict. Who would sit down with the west on behalf of the radical islamists and would they want to negoiate in anycase. there can be no argument taht the wests incursions into Afghanistan and Iraq and the Us's continued support for Isreal is helping the recruitment of despreate young men , but as the French have found out it dosent seem to make adifference if you support US foreign policy or not the terrorists seem not to care.

The common misconception of Al-queda been a group of organised/centralised organistion is not helping the situtaion Al-Queda is an Iranien form of extremist Islam which does tolerate any other religion of cultural practise, the misconception of global terrorist organiastion Al-Quada was made up in A New York courtroom was created in order to prosecute Bin Laden over the US embasy bombing in Kenya, and by the west chasing this group we have wasted both time nad money.

The main causation of the spread of global terrorism is Bin Ladens anger at not been able to overthrow the Saudi royal family and other middle-eastern regimes , Bin Laden simply uses this Al-Quada philosophy as way to capture new followers who see great disparity compred to the western neighbours both culturaly, politiaclly and economically . Bin Ladens real quarrel is with the Saudis however the only way he can overthrow the regime is to bite the hand that feeds it which is the west primarily the US, and by attcking the west he hopes to pay the US and its allies back for not allowing him free reign in his homeland

Edited July 20, 2005 by Bazzathegreat

[cletus]

**NEWSFLASH**

37 asians found dead in Leeds.

Revenge attack ruled out.

Police think bunk-bed collapsed.

I`ll get me coat.......

[Dan Furness]

3 Stations evacuated today......

God not again

[cn_barlow]

just been on the news that 'incidents' have occurred at 3 more tube stations and another bus this lunchtime

[grizfoot]

Full Story

[Dan Furness]

Good news, in a way, is they are dummy explosions

Probably some sick person trying to shake the city yet again. Good to see how fast the emergency services are in place

[Biddy]

More like a group of sick people. Looks to me like they didn't intend on hurting anyone just letting people know that these things are going to happen at any time any place and no sniffer dogs or hightened alert statuses can stop it.

[Dan Furness]

One solitary injured person is thought to be the person with the rucksack, hence why armed police have stormed the hospital

looks like GAME ON yet again

[blue phil]

The game is on permanently , Dan ; we'd better all get used to it .

[Flopsy]

Its been game on ever since the Irish Troubles started, it just seems the enemy's changed religion and tactics.

As Douglas Adams once famously put -

DONT PANIC

btw these guys today were hopeless amateurs as were the ones who were more succesfull on the 7th (Im quite happy to explain that last bit, but cant be bothered with 16 pages of discussion - PM me for my reasons). I dont know whether thats good or bad though

[Rovermatt]

It's strange that none of the devices went off. It was either amateurs or more of these f**kers firing shots across London's bow.

@#/?s.

[philipl]

Either London was incredibly lucky yesterday or perhaps the secret service has infiltrated and had nobbled the devices.

It seems astonishing that four out of four went off two weeks ago (albeit perhaps the bus bomb had not gone off when intended) and four out of four failed yesterday.

[MCMC1875]

Different materials/assembler a more likely explanation. Can't see why 'secret service' would disable bombs and let half the capital be disrupted. Can see tourist numbers reduced in the coming few months.