Major Incident In London

[SouthAussieRover]

     Your views always do you tremendous credit of course Theno.  Or should I say Thicko. 

337110[/snapback]

I guess he's a mate of yours?

Edited August 6, 2005 by SouthAussieRover

[MCMC1875]

Apparently Bakri has fled the country.

Edited August 8, 2005 by MCMC1875

[thenodrog]

He might at least have had the decency to blow himself to smithereens first......... in private of course.

[thenodrog]

"The 'rules of the game are changing' in the wake of the London bomb attacks.  The Home Secretary will have greater freedom to exclude and deport foreigners preaching hate and violence. And ministers were also looking at strengthening powers to deal with home-grown fanatics, Mr Blair announced.

If necessary MPs will be recalled from their lengthy summer break and the UK could renounce parts of the European Convention on Human Rights, the Prime Minister pledged.  Coming to Britain is not a right and even when people have come here staying here carries with it a duty," he said. 

"That duty is to share and support the values that sustain the British way of life. Those that break that duty and try and incite or engage in violence against our country or our people have no place here.

At a pre-holiday press conference in Downing Street, Mr Blair outlined wide-ranging action in 12 areas. The key was dealing with the foreign extremists who provide the "ideological drive" for British fanatics such as the London suicide bombers, he said.  Clerics coming in to preach at British mosques will have to be vetted to ensure they do not pose a threat while those already here will be deported, the Prime Minister said.

British courts have previously refused to return anyone who faces the threat of torture or death in their home country.  The Government is now working on agreements with 10 such countries so they can be sent back.

The Government will repeatedly test the new arrangements in the courts, but if problems remained then Britain's interpretation of the convention could be changed, he pledged. 

"

Tony Blair 05/08/05

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"The other dangerous delusion from which those who are wilfully or otherwise blind to realities suffer, is summed up in the word "integration". To be integrated into a population means to become for all practical purposes indistinguishable from its other members. Now, at all times, where there are marked physical differences, especially of colour, integration is difficult though, over a period, not impossible. There are among the Commonwealth immigrants who have come to live here in the last fifteen years or so, many thousands whose wish and purpose is to be integrated and whose every thought and endeavour is bent in that direction. But to imagine that such a thing enters the heads of a great and growing majority of immigrants and their descendants is a ludicrous misconception, and a dangerous one.

We are on the verge here of a change. Hitherto it has been force of circumstance and of background which has rendered the very idea of integration inaccessible to the greater part of the immigrant population - that they never conceived or intended such a thing, and that their numbers and physical concentration meant the pressures towards integration which normally bear upon any small minority did not operate.

Now we are seeing the growth of positive forces acting against integration, of vested interests in the preservation and sharpening of racial and religious differences, with a view to the exercise of actual domination, first over fellow-immigrants and then over the rest of the population."

Enoch Powell 20/04/68

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Meanwhile eat your heart out Norman Tebbit, you've just been outdone by  a Labour minister .........

Home Office minister Hazel Blears suggested that representatives of Muslim and other minorities could be asked whether they would prefer to be known by US-style hyphenated terms such as Asian-British, Pakistani-British or Indian-British, rather than simply "Asians".

Hazel Blears 09/08/05

...........Sorry Hazel I know that you are coming around to seeing sense and you mean well but I still think Tebbits asking em which cricket team they support is the easiest solution.

Hmmm 

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[Rovermatt]

He might at least have had the decency to blow himself to smithereens first......... in private of course.

337737[/snapback]

@#/?s like that haven't the balls to do something so terrible, which is why they encourage young men and women to do it instead.

Edited August 9, 2005 by Rovermatt

[salothsar]

I am in no way defending any of these people but merely stating what I have heard in various media. Islamic suicide bombers do not consider themselves to be committing suicide as this is a grave and unforgivable sin in Islam. They believe they are using self defense and are being martyrs.

I know I'll still probably get slated as defending them but I am not. It is how they justify it to themselves.

[thenodrog]

They believe they are using self defense and are being martyrs.

337812[/snapback]

Well tell em that thats complete and utter bolloox and they are either brainwashed or thick beyond belief for putting their faith in such a primitive and backward religion ... and especially so in these enlightened times.

[Flopsy]

is that last sentance sarcastic or not - my Irony sensor's on the blink

And to call Islam primitive and backward is a bit narrow minded - its no furtehr backward and narrow minded than christianity - its just that most christians (bar Opus Dei and some fundamentalists - with heavy emphasis on mentalists) have decided to mix their religion with the decadent lifestyle of the west.

Me on the other hand embrace Atheism with open arms and I am quite happy to be described as decadent. Its better than being a stuck up religious nut so blinkered that they cant see anything other than there own narrow views and refuse to listen to anyone else.

Or worse I could be french (shudder)

[salothsar]

Well tell em that thats complete and utter bolloox and they are either brainwashed or thick beyond belief for putting their faith in such a primitive and backward religion ... and especially so in these enlightened times.

337994[/snapback]

OK. Will do. That should solve the problem.

[SouthAussieRover]

ABU's going home.

Finally they are rounding them up and sending them back.

About time too.

[thenodrog]

is that last sentance sarcastic or not - my Irony sensor's on the blink

And to call Islam primitive and backward is a bit narrow minded - its no furtehr backward and narrow minded than christianity

338002[/snapback]

Right so women are openly treated like dogs in Christian faiths are they?

So people get stoned to death for adultery in many Christian countries do they?

Kids get beaten with sticks for forgetting a prayer or for mixing with Christian people?

Executions in football stadiums, ritual slaughter of animals, baby daughters unwanted and abandoned (or woese), desecration of religious buildings and shrines and intolerance of just about every other religion.

So if I am narrow minded for condemning such then well and good. So how would you describe yourself Flopsy?

[Flopsy]

oooo, hit a nerve did I? I said a tad narrow minded - dont forget Islam was a power for good in teh middle east with a decent civilisation when we western europeans were having difficulty cooking mud

some other points

1) Christians have been killing each other for the past 500 years because of a slight difference in opinion on whether a waffer of bread is the body of christ or is a symbol of the body of christ or that some bloke in rome has a direct line to him upstairs

2) Christianity has had a downer on women since the year dot - just look at the hoo ha about women priests for gods sake, why arent there any women in the upper echelons of the christian churches?

3) Christianity had a renaisance in the 16th Century Islam hasnt really got round to it yet, in some places.

4) If you check I was all up for Afghanistan being invaded because of their treatment of women. AS for the abandonment of daughters - I dont hear you condeming the Chinese of the Hindus for the same thing.

5) Desecration of religious buildings is again not the sole preserve of Islam, we in the christian faith are quite good at it too. Could I point you towards teh desecration of Synagogues and Jewish cemeteries by white christian louts. and other facist @#/?s (mainly NF and BNP) all claiming to be good honest white christians

Is Islam a bad religion? Not really some people twist it to suit their twisted look on life, but that is the same for all religions. But dont let reason or logic get in your way of your anti islamic rants

And I describe myself as fairly open minded and open to decent and reasonable arguments, you havent come up with any decent or reasonable arguments, just your normal sad diatribes against anyone whos not a white christian or who doesnt agree with you.

And what you also havent done is come up with any solutions practicle or not. But at least you havent suggested we ship them all off to Madagascar.

[colin]

Just to be slightly selective in trying to address your Islamaphobia...

Right so women are openly treated like dogs in Christian faiths are they?

If you can separate Crufts from "Miss World" you'll be doing OK

Executions in football stadiums

Our neighbours across the pond in the USA love a good execution & the "Moral Majority" Christians love those executions. I don't suppose the location matters too much

ritual slaughter of animals

And how was your most recent bacon buttie prepared? "Un-ritually slaughtered?" I think that "slaughtered" plain and simple would do for the pig.

baby daughters unwanted and abandoned

That's the Chinese.

desecration of religious buildings and shrines and intolerance of just about every other religion

Even you must be taking the mickey on this one. I'm not sure I want to pretend to give a comprehensive list off all religions which have tried to wipe out other religions in the name of "God."

So for starters:

Christian decimation of Australian Aborigines.

Ditto, but total genocide of Tasmanian Aborigines.

Christian decimation of South American indiginous population.

Ditto North American indiginous population.

The Crusades.

Let's pop down under again & mention The Maoiris in NZ.

There's not really time to go into Africa and the slave trade.

And then there's the way that Jews have been treated by European Christians over the past 700 years.

Feel free to add other religions but do yourself a favour and spread your religious intolerance a bit wider.

I think Buddists are OK though.

[philipl]

Thenodrog's Islamophobia seems totally out of control so its almost pointless explaining that stonings for adultery are so rare that the western press picks up on them from the rural back of beyond in Nigeria or Pakistan.

As I've pointed out, the Bible also has some pretty outlandish punishments prescribed.

This is gruesome reading. It recounts systematic murder, rape and torture perpetrated by Christians on Muslims in Europe in one town (largely unknown to the world at large) within the last ten years.

I condemn this utterly as much as I abhor the executions of Iran, and the barbaric excesses of Shariah.

[American]

There's not really time to go into Africa and the slave trade.

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Not to pick on you, Col, but I was watching something yesterday where they were talking about that. No one ever mentions who sold the slaves to the white man. Yes, Blacks sold their own, but it's always the fault of the buyer, never the fault of the seller.

[thenodrog]

Thank you for that Philip. A nasty illustration of a regrettable recent atrocity indeed. Far more relevent than Flopsy and Colin's silly and infantile 'yah boo sucks' comparisons with medieval and historical examples of events which merely serve to provide confirmation of my long held opinion that Islam promotes primitive teachings.

Edited August 12, 2005 by thenodrog

[philipl]

Islam in fact being the more recent religion is generally recognised as a more advanced theology and does not promote primitive teachings.

Islamic philosophy, mathematics, archectural design, engineering have all been in advance of those practised by Christians at numerous stages throughout history.

A very interesting poll carried out by the BBC showed a sizeable majority of British muslims in favour of islamic teaching in the UK to be carried out in English.

Christianity outlawed preaching the Bible in English for centuries and within my life time was conducting services in latin.

Religions and their institutions by their very nature are conservative and slow moving but I have enormous confidence in the strength of Islam to preach the message of peace and to survive the great stresses it is going through at present.

Would there have been the "radicalisation" had the Soviets not invaded Afghanistan in 1979 and the West intervened by finding the only muslims willing to take up arms against the Soviets?- the small minority of nutcase clerics who promised 72 virgins to every youngster willing to go to certain death against the Russian tanks and armour.

[Flopsy]

Thank you for that Philip.  A nasty illustration of a regrettable recent atrocity indeed.  Far more relevent than Flopsy and Colin's silly and infantile 'yah boo sucks' comparisons with medieval and historical examples of events which merely serve to provide confirmation of my long held opinion that Islam promotes primitive teachings.

338374[/snapback]

Yeah because the troubles in Ireland are SOOOO Medieval

And you can talk about yah boo sucks comparisons with your infantile " I dont like you coz your different to me" attitude

And you still ahvent come up with any reasonable suggestions to solve the problem. Have you? Much easier to criticise than actually solve something isnt it

[dave birch]

Flopsy, are you a moderator, or are you a person that edits others opinions?

You seem to be getting very agro towards those that have a different opinion.

[Flopsy]

Flopsy, are you a moderator, or are you a person that edits others opinions?

You seem to be getting very agro towards those that have a different opinion.

338403[/snapback]

When have I edited anyones opinions.

I sorted out someones posts yesterday because of their content and abusive language.

Well we could lock the topic if you want - would that be acceptable?

[dave birch]

and the second part of my post?

[thenodrog]

Yeah because the troubles in Ireland are SOOOO Medieval

338398[/snapback]

1. Awful though they have been in NI I think its generally held that religion hardly comes into those troubles any more.

2. Why have you brought it up now? Neither you nor Colin thought fit to mention it in your previous post anyway.

oh and btw as for "And you still ahvent come up with any reasonable suggestions to solve the problem. Have you? Much easier to criticise than actually solve something isnt it"

This appears to be a recurring notion with you. I might add that you have come up with sweet flerk all in the way of solutions either.

I think you are guilty of taking me, yourself and things in general a little too seriously Flopsy. This is a football message board ffs not a hot line into the UN! Its only for giving opinions and suggestions! Providing solutions is for diplomats, generals and politicians. I think you should consider taking some time away from here for a spell of r & r followed by a touch of 're-alignment'.

[Flopsy]

and I suggest you go and blow it out your arse - but its just a suggestion

This part isnt a football message board, (Thats why we have it) and i dont have solutions I have some ideas, teh main one being that you dont crack down generally on any group of people, due to their colour, religion, eating habits, football team because all it does is turn moderate people more hardline. Should we ban muslims extreamists? Yes. But we should ban all extremists because thats what they are extremists/lunatics/dangerous people.

I also think we should keep them locked up in this country so we can keep them under close supervision (as long as we dont hire Group 4 to guard them)

And the reference to the Irish problems was exactly what I was getting at , and is exactly the point - people @#/?ising religion to their own uses and using it as an excuse for them killing people.

I dislike all organised religions equally. As it rarely leaves any openings for those who have different beliefs, and usually ends with someone getting hurt/stoned/burnt at the stake

And I do take it seriously as I take all racism and sectariansim seriously because it only ends in more trouble.

And Dave I only give agro to those who are quite happy to give agro and abuse to anyone who doesnt agree with Their opinion.

And Moderators cant have views or opinions then? Surely If i edited everyones posts who I disagreed with that would be over stepping the mark - but trying to argue and debate points is, im guessing allowed, what with this freedom of speach lark which I keep getting reminded about by some of our posters. [and stop trying to divert attention away from the cricket you ]

[blue phil]

Islam in fact being the more recent religion is generally recognised as a more advanced theology and does not promote primitive teachings.

Islamic philosophy, mathematics, archectural design, engineering have all been in advance of those practised by Christians at numerous stages throughout history.

338378[/snapback]

Nice to know that you accept that throughout history the theory that all religions and cultures are of equal value does not hold water .

So if it is acceptable to argue that in the past Islam has been more advanced than Christianity (which at times it undoubtedly has ) , why then are you and your ilk so vehement in your criticism when people like myself and Theno point out the obvious and say that now Islam lags way , way behind Christianity in so many fields of human culture .....for eg , the acceptance of the principles of universal democracy , human rights , sexual and gender equality etc etc ?

Time to face the truth ; since the enlightenment Christianity has been fighting and losing an uphill struggle to survive in the face of reason and science . Muslims both in the East and unfortunately here in the West are continuing to reject the values we hold dear and are turning increasingly to the past . Come to Blackburn and watch the kids coming out the mosque dressed head to foot in shrouds clutching their korans and you might get a clue as to what I'm on about . It's brainwashing on a scale that Chairman Mao would have been proud of .

Until Islam's followers accepts the principle that secularism is the sole state power ( at least over here )then I'll be totally correct in condemning them as being backward and sub cultural . Just like Christianity once was ......

[colin]

Far more relevent than Flopsy and Colin's silly and infantile 'yah boo sucks' comparisons with medieval and historical examples of events......

338374[/snapback]

A good example of "insulting the person who posted " rather than "addressing the post."

You posted, we replied, feel free to refute the points made.