[Archived] The Old Gate Debate

[RevidgeBlue]

If you care so much about the frigging football club you'll buy the tickets and give them to this person.

When do you ever have anything positive to say about any subject? We're 5th and all people can do is moan. There must be a fair few people working at Ewood who wonder if there is any point in making an effort.

387257[/snapback]

Don't be silly Paul, that's a ridiculous response based on your personal animosity towards tnr. Why should he or anyone else pay an eleven game price fora 6 match ticket with the stadium one third empty?

[RevidgeBlue]

. I guess ST holders are "paying full whack," if full whack is defined as what the club feels is the affordable price and best value for the average ST holder. The match day ticket is then priced accordingly higher.

387327[/snapback]

Sorry, I know that's the theory but how can that be the case in practice if the average take overall is only 13 quid per seat i.e. significantly less than the equivalent cost of the CHEAPEST adult season ticket?

Unless of course the crowd is predominantly made up of juniors/ OAP'S

An absolutely crucial issue for BRISA to take up with the club I would say, not adopt a "I can't be bothered doing the maths" stance.

Edited February 28, 2006 by RevidgeBlue

[stuwilky]

Don't be silly Paul, that's a ridiculous response based on your personal animosity towards tnr. Why should he or anyone else pay an eleven game price fora 6 match ticket with the stadium one third empty?

387365[/snapback]

I think Paul meant buy individual match tickets for the six games rather than expecting a tailor made product (which if offered would potentially dangerously undervalue the season ticket)

[thenodrog]

No Paul I expect em to come up with that in August!  They may not publicise it till Dec/jan/Feb/Mar etc and wherever we are in the Prem will probably put a different slant on the issue.  Certainly 5th position should be viewed as pennies from heaven!  Anybody wishing to make a purchase should be catered for based on planning from months ago.  It would be a damned sight harder if we were at the bottom I grant you but the brief to maximise ticket sales to the commercial dept should be the same.  It's their job ffs!  They dont pick the team, mow the grass, drive the team bus etc they are there to run the businesss successfully by maximising revenue and minimising expenses.    

Maybe the commercial manager/director should be judged as football managers are and when they lose the direction and the respect of his 'sales team' to the detriment of the club they too should be moved on.  

Do you really think the commercial people are not busy on the phones trying to sell pacakges to local business?

I have a local business and yes I think I can recall one phone call about that........ in the 16 years since the JW revolution!  How many calls have you had Paul?

When do you ever have anything positive to say about any subject? 

Are'nt you ignoring Den's position as site moderator by ignoring his request that you leave out any personal and entrenched agendas?

387257[/snapback]

Theno - I was copying this post as it wasn't working on the quote function, got distracted and screwed up. Sorry, I think I've put it bcak properly. It was a genuine error not an attempt to change your post, if I have done so.

[thenodrog]

I think Paul meant buy individual match tickets for the six games rather than expecting a tailor made product (which if offered would potentially dangerously undervalue the season ticket)

387371[/snapback]

I just wanted something that wrapped up nicely and looked a bit like a proper prezzy.

[Rovers Air Force]

Average gate = 18,000? That wroughly equates to 11.25% of the blackburn populace!

If manchester United had that attendace they'd need a 337,500 seeter stadium!

[Paul]

Sorry, I know that's the theory but how can that be the case in practice if the average take overall is only 13 quid per seat i.e. significantly less than the equivalent cost of the CHEAPEST adult season ticket?

Unless of course the crowd is predominantly made up of juniors/ OAP'S

An absolutely crucial issue for BRISA to take up with the club I would say, not adopt a "I can't be bothered doing the maths" stance. 

387368[/snapback]

The £13 came directly from JW. I can believe it because I'm paying less than £13 per seat, per game, based on four STs our cost per seat, per game is £11.51:

1 x adult = £385

1 x Young Adult in FS = £195

1 x Young Adutl in BBE = £225

1 x Junior = £70

Total cost = £875

Per seat, per game = £875/19/4 = £11.51

There was a point when all the kids were under 16 that it was less than £8 per seat, per game.

Simon when I said I wasn't in a frame of mind to do the maths I meant I couldn't get my head round trying to worki it out based on STs all around the ground. I reckon my family illustrated above is pretty average.

I think my view on how STs are priced is probably accurate and the above shows the impact the club's discounting to attract families and young people massively impacts the match day revenue.

[Paul]

I think Paul meant buy individual match tickets for the six games rather than expecting a tailor made product (which if offered would potentially dangerously undervalue the season ticket)

387371[/snapback]

Correct

[RevidgeBlue]

Thanks for that Paul, based on your informative model, and assuming JW"s figure is correct, I guess that shows that not only are we not shifting enough ST's we aren't shifting enough adult season tickets in particular.

Back to to tnr's experience, I guess it's a moot point as to whether a discounted block ticket should be available but assuming ST holders/half ST holders do get a discount surely there could be no argument whatsoever against a block ticket card being available at full face value.

That isn't even available let alone at a discount!

[Paul]

thenodrog

No Paul I expect em to come up with that in August!  They may not publicise it till Dec/jan/Feb/Mar etc and wherever we are in the Prem will probably put a different slant on the issue.  Certainly 5th position should be viewed as pennies from heaven!  Anybody wishing to make a purchase should be catered for based on planning from months ago.  It would be a damned sight harder if we were at the bottom I grant you but the brief to maximise ticket sales to the commercial dept should be the same.  It's their job ffs!  They dont pick the team, mow the grass, drive the team bus etc they are there to run the businesss successfully by maximising revenue and minimising expenses.   

Maybe the commercial manager/director should be judged as football managers are and when they lose the direction and the respect of his 'sales team' to the detriment of the club they too should be moved on. 

I'm sorry but you are not thinking this one through. The ST holder is the club's most important customer, the club cannot risk devaluing the ST, which IMV is already seriously devalued by Sky and movable kick offs.

What you are suggesting would create a situation where after one season of such packages ST holders would stop buying. Why? By virtue of your suggestion one-third of the tickets at the end of season would be bundled in some way to promote sales. Fans would wait until the fixtures came out and say we got Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Utd in the last six games what would they do? I think I can guess. Couple this with the various promotions run through the season and the ST would soon become pointless, from the fan's perspective, robbing the club of vital income and any idea of how many are going to turn up on match day. So how would the club plan food, drink, programmes etc?

Then follow that with say a cup final appearance, ST sales have collapsed because of above. How on earth woud the club determine who gets priority?

Do you really think the commercial people are not busy on the phones trying to sell pacakges to local business?

I have a local business and yes I think I can recall one phone call about that........ in the 16 years since the JW revolution!  How many calls have you had Paul?

None but then my business has an 0161 number and I'm the only non-Utd or City fan.

When do you ever have anything positive to say about any subject? 

Are'nt you ignoring Den's position as site moderator by ignoring his request that you leave out any personal and entrenched agendas?

387257[/snapback]

Not at all.

[RevidgeBlue]

thenodrog

What you are suggesting would create a situation where after one season of such packages ST holders would stop buying. Why? By virtue of your suggestion one-third of the tickets at the end of season would be bundled in some way to promote sales. Fans would wait until the fixtures came out and say we got Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Utd in the last six games what would they do? I think I can guess. Couple this with the various promotions run through the season and the ST would soon become pointless, from the fan's perspective, robbing the club of vital income and any idea of how many are going to turn up on match day. So how would the club plan food, drink, programmes etc?

387431[/snapback]

No it shouldn't, as long as the ST was more competitively priced per game than the individual/block ticket. (I still think that needs to be examined independently if the average take is only 13 quid per game)

Fans can still look at the fixture list now and if the attractive fixtures fall at the end purchase on a match by match basis and/or only buy a half ST.

As for the point about priority that could be determined by ST holders OR fans attending a minimum number of games easily checkable by applying a filter to the database.

We have had the Ski Data technology in place for nearly 2 seasons now. Silly not to use it.

[Paul]

Thanks for that Paul, based on your informative model, and assuming JW"s figure is correct, I guess that shows that not only are we not shifting enough ST's we aren't shifting enough adult season tickets in particular.

387430[/snapback]

Yes I think that's a big part of the problem from an income point of view. For 12 years none of my kids cost more than say £60-70, often they were free. The non-adult discounting is having a massive impact on revenue. I still believe £32 is too much for a game of football but I cannot see what alternative Rovers, and probably several other clubs, have open to to them. The real cost of the seat is not being paid by many, many fans. Lets face it you can often get in for £15 which is very reasonable.

I've believed for some time footballers are badly over-paid and the PL chairman have collectively chucked the Sky money down the drain. The real answer is to cut wages but it has to be a collective thing. If Rovers don't pay the going rate we will simply get relegated through not having the quality of player.

The other question is at what point does the seat become too cheap? A quality product does have a price. There is a danger of under-valuing the product. Just ask MFI about there public image.

[Exiled in Toronto]

I personally am not shocked by the 13 quid per seat statistic, but then I am not sure it is the most relevant in a business that has high fixed costs, almost zero marginal costs and tons of spare capacity.

Average income per seat would be far more relevant in a business that had no spare capacity - such as Man Yoo - or one where the marginal costs of increasing sales were a factor.

My concern is that Rovers do not act like a $40 million turnover business in how they try to tackle the issue of fan-derived income. Any professional marketing outfit with access to the kind of customer database that BRFC has would have some inkling as to the following:

i) Existing customer "churn" - % of regular customers lost in a time period

ii) New customer retention rates - % of new customers who come a 2nd time, % of those who come a 3rd time and so on

iii) Optimal promotional strategy - EDLP vs. hi/lo

iv) Price elasticity - x% change in price results in y% change in sales.

v) From all of the above, a "value" to the club of a new customer and hence the level of investment sensible to put into attracting them - for example, satellite radio in the US invests $150 per new customer which, as they have a profit margin of 10%, comes from their belief that each new subscriber has a value of over $1,500.

At the executional level, Rovers are not the first business to have to contend with how to target offers such that existing customers don't get pee'd off or that existing revenues aren't unduly compromised. Retail banks spend a lot of time worrying about this.

The price route is either valid or it is not. It is not at the moment because over half the fans have season tickets which have been sold on the premise of "best value." But then Sky has changed the equation and the season ticket concept based solely on price is now largely redundant as being the main promotional tool. It needs to be re-invented both to be more effective in its own right and also be less of a barrier to price-based promotional activity.

Why is there minimal added value for season ticket holders beyond price - a benefit easily eroded by Sky messing around with the playing schedule and also a millstone that hampers attracting new customers?

Starwood Hotels are pursuing a regular visitor strategy that offers exclusive access to events e.g. Victoria's Secret fashion shows in their W hotel chain. Regular visitors get less upset if some walk-in got a good price for the night as price is no longer the main benefit of being a Starwood Preferred Guest.

Why not have monthly meet the player sessions available only for season ticket holders; free upgrades to boxes/lounges - they're never full anyway; exclusive use of the shop (ha!) at certain times; 2 months head start on owning new design playing kits etc. etc. as the main benefit?

I for one refuse to accept that either the club have done all they can or that the Blackburn public are to blame. Williams and Finn get renumerated at the level of a fairly large, professional company which for me means that they should be expected to have a sophistiocated approach to growing the business and also be accountable for results, no matter how challenging the circumstances.

In my corporate career I never got paid as much as they do, despite being on the board of a company with 6 times the turnover as BRFC, but I was expected to be employing best practice capabilities and to be wholly accountable for outcomes.

[Paul]

No it shouldn't, as long as the ST was more competitively priced per game than the individual/block ticket. (I still think that needs to be examined independently if the average take is only 13 quid per game)

387440[/snapback]

Exactly, protecting the value of the ST is crucial. As soon as the club begin to bundle tickets in some form the value of the ST is undermined. I believe anything less than either a full or half ST would have a damaging impact on ST sales.

[AggyBlue]

pursuing a regular visitor strategy that offers exclusive access to events e.g. Victoria's Secret fashion shows

387442[/snapback]

I second that. Put me down for the front row

[dave birch]

Exactly, protecting the value of the ST is crucial. As soon as the club begin to bundle tickets in some form the value of the ST is undermined. I believe anything less than either a full or half ST would have a damaging impact on ST sales.

387444[/snapback]

Why should the ST be undermined by bundling? If the price of the bundled tickets is set at or just below the normal "buy on the day" price, then there's got to be profit.

Where's the profit in not selling them at all?

Is it better to have someone pay 13quid for a seat than not have the 13 at all, and if someone is prepared to pay 30quid per match for a six ticket bundle, then the Rovers should be snapping their hand off?

[RevidgeBlue]

I just wanted something that wrapped up nicely and looked a bit like a proper prezzy.

387378[/snapback]

Would you have bought a 6 game card at full face value in a fancy presentation box with maybe a signed team photo or something similar?

[stuwilky]

Why should the ST be undermined by bundling? If the price of the bundled tickets is set at or just below the normal "buy on the day" price, then there's got to be profit.

Where's the profit in not selling them at all?

Is it better to have someone pay 13quid for a seat than not have the 13 at all, and if someone is prepared to pay 30quid per match for a six ticket bundle, then the Rovers should be snapping their hand off?

387451[/snapback]

On a singular basis, yes. It would seem to make sense.

The danger is substitution. With moveable kick off times, with the fact that many many season ticket holders dont manage to get toall the games for one and another reason if there was a 10 match package over the season they might not buy a ST, similarly for a 5 match "package".

Initially I was a great supporter of the idea of bundling, but having heard concerns from several sources I am not so sure. I like the idea of doubling (eg Cat A and Cat in the BBE Lower for a combined price of £50 rather than £57) - and I apologise if my additions is wrong, God knows what match day prices are now!

[American]

Exactly, protecting the value of the ST is crucial. As soon as the club begin to bundle tickets in some form the value of the ST is undermined. I believe anything less than either a full or half ST would have a damaging impact on ST sales.

387444[/snapback]

Totally disagree with that one, Paul. Many professional clubs over here have partial season ticket packages, usually about 1/4 of the games, combo of the good teams and some of the less attended ones. They also allow priority for that same seat for playoff games (equivalent would be home cup matches).

An example might be a 6 match package with tickets to see Arsenal, United, Liverpool, Fulham, Portsmouth and Spurs.

Works quite well over here and might be successful there if BRISA brought it up to the club.

[dave birch]

On a singular basis, yes.  It would seem to make sense.

The danger is substitution.  With moveable kick off times, with the fact that many many season ticket holders dont manage to get toall the games for one and another reason if there was a 10 match package over the season they might not buy a ST, similarly for a 5 match "package".

Initially I was a great supporter of the idea of bundling, but having heard concerns from several sources I am not so sure.  I like the idea of doubling (eg Cat A and Cat  in the BBE Lower for a combined price of £50 rather than £57) - and I apologise if my additions is wrong, God knows what match day prices are now!

387466[/snapback]

I've got a bit more time to flesh this one out.

The ultimate package should be a full season ticket, this should have the greatest benefit, for obvious reasons.

At about half way through the season, you get the half season ticket, reduced benefit.

After a month or so (ie late Feb/early March), (and this is what I understand Theno to be getting at) there should be a facility to get a bundle of, say 6 or 7 games for the remainder of the season. The benefit should not be greater (%age wise) than that of a half or full season ticket.

With the "doubling of tickets, I can't see why that shouldn't work. If you double a Manu ticket with say, Sunderland. In fact the club could double tickets with any teams.

[bob fleming]

So in summary:

1. The ground is approx two thirds full this season.

2. There are six home games left and someone asked to buy a "Season" Ticket (or a little plastic card) for all six as a present, preferably with a discount.

3. The club refused.

Good business practice or bad business practice?

Dave has got it right above. The club should be taking full advantage of the position they are in this week and try and shift some more tickets for the remainder of the season (or at the very least, if a potential customer rings up, be in a position to sell). It's been 8 years since we've been this high in the league. Maybe it'll be another 8 years before we're in a position to capitalise on it.

[Alan75]

To read some of the comments here, you would think that the club are sitting on their arses and doing nothing.

Club Press Release.

Don't miss the chance to come and support Rovers against Villa on Saturday 11th March, Kick Off 5:15. Robbie and the rest of the players are hoping to see a big crowd down at Ewood that will help spur them on their quest to qualify for Europe.

KIDS FOR A QUID

Adult tickets cost from £15 while for juniors it's just £1 in all areas of the ground, except for the Jack Walker upper central.

Log-on to https://eticketing.co.uk/blackburnrovers/index.asp and book your tickets now!

BORO - SAT 18TH MARCH 3PM

Middlesbrough tickets are also available on the e-ticketing site. Adult tickets from £15 and Junior tickets £5 in all areas except JW Upper Central. Adults can get a fiver off this game and Juniors can come in for free by joining the Rovers membership. See below for more details.

HALF PRICE MEMBERSHIP

If you're not already a member, why not join the Rovers 'Proud to be a Rover' membership scheme. Adult membership costs £10 and you will get a fiver off the Villa match ticket.

Proud to be a Rover benefits:

£5 off Villa and Wigan or Boro match this season (i.e. two £5 match vouchers)

Exclusive 04/05 Season goal highlights DVD

Rovers Fan pack

Discount at Blues and on Away travel

Ticket priority on games

Tickets to Members exclusive events* (Audience with Mark Hughes, etc)

Junior Young Rovers membership costs only £5 and you will also get free entry to Wigan or Boro match this season.

Young Rover benefits:

Free entry to Wigan or Boro match this season (i.e. One free junior B match ticket)

Membership card

Birthday card from the players

Rovers goody bag (stationery set, Rovers wall chart,etc)

Chance to become a Player escort*

Discount on Rovers Soccer Schools and Away travel

Tickets to Members exclusive events*

HOW TO JOIN

You can join the membership scheme by logging onto https://eticketing.co.uk/blackburnrovers/index.asp (Released Wed 1st March)

Alternatively email marketing@rover-mail.co.uk for more membership benefits.

[dave birch]

And, if the person receiving the "present" of six games thinks, "hey, this is good fun. I want to come more next time round. I might bring a mate."

Potential sale, potential double sale, full year.

Alan75, no doubt the club is doing a lot, but is it focused right, is it maximising its efforts to get those bums on seats that Hughes wants to get off seats?

[Alan75]

Alan75, no doubt the club is doing a lot, but is it focused right, is it maximising its efforts to get those bums on seats that Hughes wants to get off seats?

387498[/snapback]

dave, after a recent insight on the running of the club, I believe the club are explosing all avenues for improving ticket sales and are really focusing their attention on attendances.

They are also open minded and ready to consider any new idea to boost ticket sales.

[thenodrog]

Exactly, protecting the value of the ST is crucial. As soon as the club begin to bundle tickets in some form the value of the ST is undermined. I believe anything less than either a full or half ST would have a damaging impact on ST sales.

387444[/snapback]

SO WHATS THIS NEXT QUOTE ABOUT.....................?

To read some of the comments here, you would think that the club are sitting on their arses and doing nothing.

Club Press Release.

Don't miss the chance to come and support Rovers against Villa on Saturday 11th March, Kick Off 5:15. Robbie and the rest of the players are hoping to see a big crowd down at Ewood that will help spur them on their quest to qualify for Europe.

KIDS FOR A QUID

Adult tickets cost from £15 while for juniors it's just £1 in all areas of the ground, except for the Jack Walker upper central.

Log-on to https://eticketing.co.uk/blackburnrovers/index.asp and book your tickets now!

BORO - SAT 18TH MARCH 3PM

Middlesbrough tickets are also available on the e-ticketing site. Adult tickets from £15 and Junior tickets £5 in all areas except JW Upper Central. Adults can get a fiver off this game and Juniors can come in for free by joining the Rovers membership. See below for more details.

HALF PRICE MEMBERSHIP

If you're not already a member, why not join the Rovers 'Proud to be a Rover' membership scheme. Adult membership costs £10 and you will get a fiver off the Villa match ticket.

Proud to be a Rover benefits:

£5 off Villa and Wigan or Boro match this season (i.e. two £5 match vouchers)

Exclusive 04/05 Season goal highlights DVD

Rovers Fan pack

Discount at Blues and on Away travel

Ticket priority on games

Tickets to Members exclusive events* (Audience with Mark Hughes, etc)

Junior Young Rovers membership costs only £5 and you will also get free entry to Wigan or Boro match this season.

Young Rover benefits:

Free entry to Wigan or Boro match this season (i.e. One free junior B match ticket)

Membership card

Birthday card from the players

Rovers goody bag (stationery set, Rovers wall chart,etc)

Chance to become a Player escort*

Discount on Rovers Soccer Schools and Away travel

Tickets to Members exclusive events*

HOW TO JOIN

You can join the membership scheme by logging onto https://eticketing.co.uk/blackburnrovers/index.asp (Released Wed 1st March)

Alternatively email marketing@rover-mail.co.uk for more membership benefits.

387496[/snapback]

THAT SHOULD P1SS OFF MORE ST HOLDERS THAN ENOUGH!

LOSE / LOSE SITUATION EH?