[Archived] Poll - Falling Attendances.

[Paul]

Twas just one of those moments that made me laugh out loud

[thenodrog]

Very hard to argue with those figures philip. Those prices are available in the CIS and JW sections closest to the Darwen End. Question might have to be:

Why are people unaware of this?

Would it be better to offer these prices in the thick of the home support?

347618[/snapback]

Easy to argue with that though Paul. Like that widely criticised £10 ticket of a few seasons back all it would do is seiously p1ss off ST holders.

[thenodrog]

Scared now to support thenodrug on the Lancs United strategy because you are not allowing the MB to be a collection of ideas.

347555[/snapback]

mhead.........don't be scared. As I've said many times they only criticise me cos it's all they can do........ they simply do not have any other ideas! I've asked em time and again to put forward solutions and suggestions yet all I get is ever more criticism.

[waggy]

Easy to argue with that though Paul.  Like that widely criticised £10 ticket of a few seasons back all it would do is seiously p1ss off ST holders. 

347631[/snapback]

these fans are not forward thinking though,i'd rather sit in a full ground with 10k let in for nowt,because if we can intice 1 to come back it will be worth while

[thenodrog]

Why "Lancashire United" wouldn't work.

The Mechanics

Let's keep things simple and say that only two clubs want to merge, say Preston and Blackburn. How could they go about doing it? 

Well, the "easiest" option that I can see is that they both disband, resign from the league, and form a new club - Lancashire United (for want of a better name).  The problem is though that they would surely then have to start from the bottom of the football league pyramid - just like new clubs AFC Wimbledon and FC United have done.  And as Theno's suggestion is aimed at maintaining a successful team in our area what does starting at the bottom achieve?

Another far more complicated option is that one club disbands and then merges with the other.  As Blackburn are the higher-placed club, it would make sense (as much as any of this is sensible) for PNE to disband and merge with Blackburn.  The problem then is that Preston fans won't want to come to Blackburn to watch their football.  I suspect most would rather cut their own throats to be honest!

However, I guess that, in an attempt to reduce the feeling amongst Preston fans that they are simply watching a strengthened Blackburn team, Rovers could change their name to Lancashire United and play in a different kit.  This would give the impression that Lancashire United is really a new club when, in fact, it's just Rovers with knobs on.  But I think this would just alienate both sets of supporters and, rather than attracting bigger grounds and becoming more successful, we'd see far smaller crowds.  You could argue that maybe, in a generation or two, these feelings of resentment within the fans would pass, but where would the "new" club be then?  Certainly not in the top division - in fact I suspect they'd go bust long before then.

Another problem with the above is that we are getting close to franchise territory.  I'm pretty sure that after the Wimbledon/MK Dons fiasco league rules have been tightened up to prevent franchises being set up and to basically stop clubs moving to another geographical area.  So there may be rules in place that simply don't allow Preston to merge with Rovers.

The only way I could see Lancashire United possibly working is if the whole Premiership and Football League structure was changed.  In effect, all the existing clubs would have to resign from their respective leagues (or enough to bring about the change) and new leagues would be set up in their place.  Lancashire United could then apply to be in the new league, preferably in the top division.  However, there would still be huge problems.

The Ground

The new club could presumably use one of the existing two grounds to play their football on, I guess Ewood would make more sense as it's bigger, but then how many Preston fans would travel over to Ewood to watch their footy?  Not many I suspect.  So I suppose the sensible option would be to build a new ground somewhere between Blackburn and Preston e.g. BAe Samlesbury.

But who pays for this new ground?  Neither club has enough money to compete as it is so where are they going to find the extra millions needed to build a new ground?  The sales of Deepdale and Ewood would help, but I suspect that the new club would still be well short of the money they needed.

The Fans

As I've said before, if the new club has too close a tie to one of the existing clubs (e.g. plays at Ewood) then the fans of the other club won't watch them.  Football fans are too loyal and tribal for that to happen.  They would rather not watch football at all, or follow a smaller local team, than support their rivals.

So the new club would have to be as neutral as possible.  But even if you made the assumption that a new club (Lancashire United) playing on a new ground (Samlesbury) then had the combined fanbase of PNE and Rovers - a huge assumption to make imo - there would still be all the other problems currently affecting football attendances.  There'd still be too much footy on TV, there'd still be the likes of Chelsea and Man U way ahead of the rest, the new club would still probably charge too much to watch the team, the players would still be paid too much and act like cocks half the time.  Merging PNE and Rovers won't solve any of those problems. The whole infrastructure of the current domestic and European game would have to be changed to solve all the current problems in football.  There's no easy fix.

The Community

The biggest objection I have with a Lancashire United is the loss of Blackburn Rovers to the community of Blackburn.  The demographics of the town have changed over the years and there's no doubt that the Asian community in Blackburn don't support Rovers as much as we'd like.  However, for tens of thousands of people that live in Blackburn, Blackburn Rovers generate a huge sense of pride.  The town doesn't have a lot to shout about, but what it does have is a famous old football club that has achieved great things in the game.  If Blackburn lost this what else would it's residents take pride in? 

The same would be true for Preston as well.  Lancashire United, with its neutrality and faceless name and ground, would not generate that same sense of pride and community spirit.

347585[/snapback]

But have you ever considered the efffect of bankruptcy of any particular club in your thinking?

btw....... Nice criticism scotty. Well thought through, well laid out and far better than your normal rude put downs. I bet there was lots of earnest thought and metaphoric pencil sucking that went into that before you pushed the send button, but could you put as much effort into providing your own solution as I asked?

Did you ever suffer bad results in an exam because you did not read the question properly?

Edited September 18, 2005 by thenodrog

[Paul]

Easy to argue with that though Paul.  Like that widely criticised £10 ticket of a few seasons back all it would do is seiously p1ss off ST holders.  

347631[/snapback]

That would depend on if the ST holders did their sums, but I agree on the face of it this would irritate ST holders:

ST prices for one adult and one junior (per match = average for Adult + Junior):

CIS Matchday £15 + £5 = £20 per match PLUS £2 booking fee = £22

CIS Outer ST £250 + £85 = £335 = £17.60 per match

BBE Upper ST £385 + £70 = 455 = £24 per match

BBE Lower ST £410 + £85 = £495 = £26 per match

If one includes the discount an ST holder can get on the programme (is it £1.50?) the prices are very similar. I haven't factored in the Loyalty Discount because I don't know what it is, but it would probably bring the prices to roughly equal. I suspect you're right though the majority would look at it and be upset. Then of course there would be the whole question of the value of buying an ST in the first place.

One thing that occurs to me is could an ST be more expensive? Arguably the benefits of an ST make it worth more than a match day ticket:

Guaranteed match seat

Guaranteed cup tickets

Priority on away tickets

No weekly hassle to buy tickets

etc.

I buy STs mainly because it spreads the cost, reduces the hassle and ensures I see every game I want to be at. The cost is not the main consideration.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Paul

[thenodrog]

I buy STs mainly because it spreads the cost, reduces the hassle and ensures I see every game I want to be at. The cost is not the main consideration.

347638[/snapback]

I'd agree with that! But if you look at the poll results (the majority of which I do think were prob completed from the heart rather than the head btw....... sorry guys) you will find that we are very much in the minority.

[thenodrog]

these fans are not forward thinking though,i'd rather sit in a full ground with 10k let in for nowt,

347636[/snapback]

me too but there would be howls of outrage. Just think of the poor bergers that come to Ewood from long distance and at great expense and end up sitting next to some bloke from Mill Hill whose paid a tenner and who otherwise would be suppin ale in the Raglan?

[philipl]

What do you think is the biggest contributing factor in the alarming decrease in our crowds?

That is the question.

The 'drog argues we got the answers wrong because we used our hearts rather than our heads.

...and since when was football support a cerebral as opposed to an emotional exercise?

The 'drog also bases his argument on: "But have you ever considered the efffect of bankruptcy of any particular club in your thinking?"

As I have pointed out, I have no problem with Blackburn Rovers absorbing any other football club and playing in blue and white halves as Blackburn Rovers at Ewood Park. That is what the 'drog is arguing for as well if you spot the caveats he lets creep in from time to time.

Now tell me, which clubs in Lancashire are today in imminent danger of bankruptcy?

[bellamy11]

Oh right.  That's umm err ....a very good joke guys...... and very relevent to the topic too.

hardly worth 3 smilies though Paul.

347628[/snapback]

About as relevant as quoting (well, paraphrasing) Shakey. If you sat enough monkeys at enough typewriters then eventually they'd write Shakespeare. Perhaps that's what's happened with the Lancashire idea? For all the fact that you've at least come up with some kind of suggestion, it doesn't make it a very good one and people shouldn't be allowed to criticise - much the same as you feel justified in mocking BRISA without coming up with your own suggestion or adding your own input. One rule for one, eh?

What a piece of work is man!

[Simon Says]

Are those figures taking into account any promotion/relegation influence?  The fact that 2nd div (old git) have lost Sunderland and West Ham's home gates would surely have some negative effect.

347517[/snapback]

The figures Gordon are based on the equivalent matches from last season and so don’t include matches involving Wigan, Sunderland, West Ham, Norwich, Crystal Palace or Southampton.

Yet there is still a drop of 7%. Why? Reasons put forward for a drop in the Premiership include a lack of competition, Sky TV, boring tactics and of course money.

Well nobody could say the Championship is predictable. Any team could come up or go down. TV? Well Sky cover a lot of games but the majority of matches still kick off on a Saturday afternoon or a Tuesday or Wednesday evening. Boring tactics? Again doesn’t really apply as most games are arguably more entertaining. So the bottom line must be money. A bit like in the Premiership the supporter seems to be fair game. They are squeezing us until the pips squeak.

[thenodrog]

For all the fact that you've at least come up with some kind of suggestion, it doesn't make it a very good one and people shouldn't be allowed to criticise - much the same as you feel justified in mocking BRISA without coming up with your own suggestion or adding your own input.

347647[/snapback]

1. Where have I mocked BRISA?

2. Deeyell Bellamy! The last 2 pages are based on my suggestions!

[thenodrog]

Yet there is still a drop of 7%.  Why?  Reasons put forward for a drop in the Premiership include a lack of competition, Sky TV, boring tactics and of course money.

Well nobody could say the Championship is predictable.  Any team could come up or go down. 

347651[/snapback]

Maybe the fact that fans know that any team can come up .........and then are 90% sure that they' have a humiliating season before going straight back down again and usually potless to boot.

[Flopsy]

can i vote for all of the above

[G Somerset Rover]

Just over 20k, it was Bellamys home debut, the return of Souness and Shearers last ever aoppearance (cup permitting) at Ewood Park. Admitedly having commitments and living in Somerset I couldnt make it...but this is bad and it'l get a hell of a lot worse. I seriously doubt if we'll even get 27k+ against the likes of Utd and Chelsea. Fans want entertainment, wins and goals..and this is why they're turning away in my opinion. We have to show more ambition on the pitch.

[roversWASmylife]

Not surprised about the attendance.

Tickets are a bit pricey, it's a 2pm kick off on Sunday and the game is televised on Paper View, allowing people to watch it at the pub.

Why should people pay £30 + and whatever else they spend at the footy when they can spend £10 or so in the pub and watch it there.

[Rovers_4_life]

Well surely the club can't expect to fill the stadium every week whilst were paying lots of our hard earned cash to watch that shower of sh!te every week.

The only way to bring the crowds back is to play attacking, exciting football and to win games. Not playing 4-5-1 and hoping we nick a goal every now and again.

[den]

Well surely the club can't expect to fill the stadium every week whilst were paying lots of our hard earned cash to watch that shower of sh!te every week.

The only way to bring the crowds back is to play attacking, exciting football and to win games. Not playing 4-5-1 and hoping we nick a goal every now and again.

347783[/snapback]

I've got mixed feelings on this 4-5-1 thing. OF COURSE it would be far better to play 4-4-2 and win, but unfortunately, I don't think we have the players in midfield that would give the defence any kind of reasonable protection.

[Modi]

I've got mixed feelings on this 4-5-1 thing. OF COURSE it would be far better to play 4-4-2 and win, but unfortunately, I don't think we have the players in midfield that would give the defence any kind of reasonable protection.

347784[/snapback]

The best sort of protection the defence can have is a goal or two lead.

4-5-1 against Arse, ManUre, Chelski & Liverpool. Against the rest, we should chance our hand.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Interesting that nobody has noticed the alarming drop in away support. Newcastle have in previous seasons taken the vast majority of the away end. This year huge gaps - believe me this isn't just a Rovers problem. As someone on the forum has already mentioned - a sides drop in away support is a good barometer for future home support. Watch their crowds start to fall away. Slowly at first - Cup competitions etc, the people will start to realise they can pick and choose matches and it will gather pace.

Owen's first match away from home - and they can't take up their allocation - for a City 10*'s the size of Blackburn that is disgraceful

[den]

The best sort of protection the defence can have is a goal or two lead.

347789[/snapback]

Wish I could agree with that, Ed.

[Paul]

Interesting that nobody has noticed the alarming drop in away support.

347799[/snapback]

I posted elsewhere that a drop in support starts with the away fans and filters through to the home support. It takes time though. It's about two or three years back people first started to mention a drop in Rovers away support, and now we are seeing the very serious decline in home attendance.

.....and after today all the talk and ideas in the world won't have any effect. JW may well decide to stop spending money on promoting ticket sales as it will cut costs for the club.

[1864roverite]

today saw

3198 barcodes in the ground, thats a massive drop on the 5900 from last year and is easily the worst ever support they have ever brought to Ewood for many a year.

spekaing to lads in the pub who came down but remained in the pub, its the cost, the current playing standards and the fact that they had about 10 pints each whilst we were in the ground costing them approx 15£ whilst a ticket was £28 and the beer in the ground is nearly £3 a pint

says it all

something has to give

[sharptommy]

I think that £30 for a ticket is crazy. Like someone else said, why not get a few pints and watch it in a full pub which would have better atmosphere than a half filled stadium only to watch rovers stick bellamy up front on his own (?????) in a 4-5-1 crapper than crap formation. Rovers played long balls down the middle in the hope of getting a goal from a corner (tbf they looked fairly dangerous) but there is no way I will pay the same money to watch the same crap again.

someone argued they dont have the players to play 4-4-2 but the defence would be the same, MGP, tugay and (mokena or sav) and bentley would be more attacking with bellamy and (jansen, kuqi, dickov) up front. I rememebr rovers were absolutely brillaint to watch a only 3 years back when duff and gillespie were tearing down the wings with dunny and flitcroft in the middle. (think we finished 6th that year). they couldnt have done worse today anyhow!!!

until teams like rovers change their style or the FA imposes points bonuses for goals scored, football will be a log waiting to be flushed!

[Alan75]

Interesting that nobody has noticed the alarming drop in away support.

347799[/snapback]

Front page of this site NEWS. Newcastle Preview.

In this corresponding fixture last season between Rovers and Newcastle, Ewood Park experienced it's biggest games of the season, 29271, when Newcastle brought with them a following of nearly 7000 supporters. However at present the Barcodes have only sold in the region of 2500 tickets for Sunday's game, which is extremely disappointing for a club that proud themselves on having the best supporters in the country.

I'm not suggesting that Newcastle fans are less passionate about their club, than they were last season, it's more likely that they are being influenced by the cost and indifferent form of their team.

Unless clubs wake up to the fact that negative displays, rearranged kick off times to accommodate TV coverage and pricing policy, then I fear that the national game will become a televised sport requiring sound effects and computer graphics in order to achieve an atmosphere.