[Archived] Andy Taylor

[stuwilky]

Finally, I admit to hardly having seen Taylor play

unless Hughes was going to sign a genuinely superior and valuable left back - but that Bruno Berner is not.

Having never seen him play, how do you know this?

[FourLaneBlue]

Whatever you think about rover6 he has put an argument forward without resorting to name-calling , ad-hominen attacks or personal insults. If you think he is wrong then why not try to debate as to why rather than just slag him off? The last two posts are just concerned with rover6.. You two just seem to keep goading rover6 yet you don´t address his points. If you think he is wrong then why not challenge what he writes rather than trying to undermine his status as a contributor to this messageboard?

rover6...you keep going on about Bruno Berner as if he is symptomatic of what Hughes perceives as dunderhead old pros being better than youngsters. Yet that is to ignore the likely reality that Hughes just bought a player who has not done too well. Do you really think Hughes bought him knowing he would not do too well? Most likely Hughes bought the likes of Mokoena and Berner hoping they would be like Warnock or Samba have been. Just because Hughes buys players from time to time who do not play like fantastic bargains does not prove the man is anti-youth...but simply that he is not infallible in the transfer market.

Edited May 9, 2008 by FourLaneBlue

[philipl]

Berner was bought at the same time as Rovers bought a highly injury-prone left back whose number of appearances at Liverpool from kid to age 25 will be eclipsed by his number of appearances for Rovers in the first week of next season.

We bought a player with 19 international caps and numerous UEFA Cup appearances as experienced cover.

Exactly what any club with serious top ten and European aspirations should do and always will do in those circumstances.

Warnock has proved a big success at Rovers, has kept fit and benefitted from regular starts (similar to Roque up front). But that was by no means certain 18 months ago and so Berner was as essential a signing as the Axe.

If both Berner and the Axe are getting close to superfluous now, it is a measure of how the Rovers are developing as a team and a squad. Young players are part of the picture if they get to the EPL level on the training pitch or out on loan- Derbyshire and Olsson are; Neillsen by repute is; Gallagher and Peter very tenuously and the rest are aspirants.

We go into the last game of the season with £2.25m and a get out of jail card for UEFA qualification resting on it. No way are youngsters ever going to be bloodied unless they are for sure going to make a positive impact. We tried a youngster against Coventry and for whatever reasons, Rovers produced the worst result since we were promoted back to the Premiership.

For all of the arguments to the contrary, Hughes is handling selection to the first team 100% correctly so far as youngsters go. Lucky breaks (combinations of senior squad injuries and suspensions) come along every season- it is about having youngsters with the skill and physical and mental strength to seize the moment when it is presented, not when they might think they are ready.

That said, there does seem to be something wrong with the running of the Academy/Reserves set up but it is a different issue from selection to the senior squad or the first team.

Edited May 9, 2008 by philipl

[rover6]

For all of the arguments to the contrary, Hughes is handling selection to the first team 100% correctly so far as youngsters go. Lucky breaks (combinations of senior squad injuries and suspensions) come along every season- it is about having youngsters with the skill and physical and mental strength to seize the moment when it is presented, not when they might think they are ready.

What if that lucky break never comes? People seem to have a very naiive faith in probability - which also, incidentally, causes some to suggest that 'referee mistakes even themselves out over a season.'

Lucky breaks do not always come and therefore, if the manager does not have a proactive policy of transitional selection of good young players, then their progress stagnates. THe more squad padders are signed, the less chance of lucky breaks.

Players who have had lucky breaks in recent years are Matt Derbyshire, Jay McEveley and Jon Douglas (out of position so not that lucky). We're talking hypotheticals here, but I believe that it stands to reason that if these guys hadn't been blessed by injuries to others and got a run in the team, they would not be where they are now - one playing England U21 footy and the other two having featured in Senior International squads. None were extraordinarily special for the reserves, by all reports.

So if you accept that a run with the first team can provide an invaluable boost to a player's career - which can be the difference between League 2 football (where McEveley was heading with his loaning club, Gillingham) and playing Premier League football, qualifying for a national team squad and earning a big money move - the question which must be asked, and I am fervently asking, can we leave this "invaluable confidence and developmental boost" that is first team involvement, to luck?

Can we afford to leave this potent developmental instrument to whim of first team injury crises? Or do we harness it and systematically promote youth players for transitional selection and see how they develop?

(Incidentally, Hughes' use of Olsson recently would appear to suggest that he is keen to give transitional selection to the guy, which is promising, but it has to be maintained And as far as I know, giving the inexperienced youngster a 15 min run out in a Premier League did not have apocalyptic effects).

Edited May 9, 2008 by rover6

[philipl]

You've answered your own point r6.

Olsson good enough, rest sadly are not.

[Eddie]

I think Rover 6's point, not that I totally agree with it, is that several players who have broken through in the end were not the ones most highely touted in the youth or reserve sides. We have to try and get youngsters a run-out, but really the only way to do is is through the cups.

[Parsonblue]

The major flaw in your argument rover6 is that your policy of 'systematically promoting' young players at the expense of more seasoned professionals may well lead to a downturn in results. The first team is a results driven business and the manager's job rests in getting the right results. It is only natural that he would want experienced cover for his first choice eleven. Berner was a better choice than Taylor to act as cover. Olsson has looked like a player who could develop into a Premiership player while playing with the Reserves. Taylor never did. Surely players should be selected on ability and not because of their age or the fact that they have come through the club's Academy.

Berner has looked a far better player than Taylor in Reserve football and, in my opinion, has done a decent job when drafted into the first team. For what he has cost us I believe he has proved good value. The same applies to Mokoena. He has been an excellent buy in terms of what he cost, the number of games he has played and his contribution to the team. When he first arrived he helped us avoid relegation and last season he was excellent after Savage was injured.

I would agree that Olsson is likely to become the backup to Warnock and or Pedersen next season and Berner might leave. However, unless we make another couple of signings in midfield then I would want Mokoena to stay, particularly if Tugay leaves. With only O'Keefe, Marrow and Hodge in the Reserves to fill the gaps in central midfield I would think it essential that Mokoena stays as he is head and shoulders above these three.

[den]

I think Rover 6's point, not that I totally agree with it, is that several players who have broken through in the end were not the ones most highely touted in the youth or reserve sides. We have to try and get youngsters a run-out, but really the only way to do is is through the cups.

We all know rover6's point Eddie. He can't unfortunately back up anything he says with names of academy players that rovers have released, that have gone on to become Prem players elsewhere. Not one.

[Eddie]

To which he will respond that had they had first team experience earlier on it may well have had a crucial impact on their development.

Just thought I would save us some time.

[den]

To which he will respond that had they had first team experience earlier on it may well have had a crucial impact on their development.

Just thought I would save us some time.

Thanks Eddie.

He can't prove that argument, nor can anyone disprove it. You would have thought though, that at least one of the young lads, having left ewood while still in their teens - and had the benefit of exposure to another clubs coaching/first team, would have made it back to the Prem - wouldn't you? It hasn't happened in the last ten years at least.

[stuwilky]

Whatever you think about rover6 he has put an argument forward without resorting to name-calling , ad-hominen attacks or personal insults. If you think he is wrong then why not try to debate as to why rather than just slag him off? The last two posts are just concerned with rover6.. You two just seem to keep goading rover6 yet you don´t address his points. If you think he is wrong then why not challenge what he writes rather than trying to undermine his status as a contributor to this messageboard?

Without understanding what the argument that is being put forward is, or its foundation. Its difficult to reply soundly.

However, I'll say what Ive said dozens of times about the academy....

In my Opinion

..The issue is not the lack of the youngsters we have being blooded into the first team.

The issue is that we are not getting in good enough youngsters, or they are not being developed well enough to break into the first team.

The insistence of some parties that we use players that are not good enough as cover having never seen them, and with evidence pointing to them struggling at lower levels never mind in our first team squad is just a bit bizarre.

Edited May 9, 2008 by stuwilky

[American]

Again, playing Olsson for 15 minutes didn't kill us and didn't cost us any positioning or money.

Playing Pedersen constantly has.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Whatever you think about rover6 he has put an argument forward without resorting to name-calling , ad-hominen attacks or personal insults. If you think he is wrong then why not try to debate as to why rather than just slag him off? The last two posts are just concerned with rover6.. You two just seem to keep goading rover6 yet you don´t address his points. If you think he is wrong then why not challenge what he writes rather than trying to undermine his status as a contributor to this messageboard?

rover6...you keep going on about Bruno Berner as if he is symptomatic of what Hughes perceives as dunderhead old pros being better than youngsters. Yet that is to ignore the likely reality that Hughes just bought a player who has not done too well. Do you really think Hughes bought him knowing he would not do too well? Most likely Hughes bought the likes of Mokoena and Berner hoping they would be like Warnock or Samba have been. Just because Hughes buys players from time to time who do not play like fantastic bargains does not prove the man is anti-youth...but simply that he is not infallible in the transfer market.

The point here FLB is that many of us have tried to argue with r6, and to be honest there is no point. He has made all kind of wild criticisms of Hughes personally and the club in general, which shift over time.

He ignores the posts made by Den, Philip, myself and many others. There's no evidence he's ever been to Ewood, or seen any of the players he champions actually play.

I'm just very, very bored of self-importance and ignorance. I can cope with one of those, but both at the same time are unbearable.

[AggyBlue]

He ignores the posts made by Den, Philip, myself and many others. There's no evidence he's ever been to Ewood, or seen any of the players he champions actually play.

I'm just very, very bored of self-importance and ignorance. I can cope with one of those, but both at the same time are unbearable.

Sounds like he's not the only one who's full of self importance and ignorance.

He has a different opinion than you do, get over it FFS.

[Paul Mellelieu]

[

Edited May 10, 2008 by Paul Mellelieu

[stuwilky]

Again, playing Olsson for 15 minutes didn't kill us and didn't cost us any positioning or money.

Playing Pedersen constantly has.

Agree with you on Martin, who bought when he was 17 (?). He impressed, and gets offered occasional first team chances.

And as for Pedersen, agree wholeheartedly! But thats a different issue entirely!

Edited May 10, 2008 by stuwilky

[den]

Sounds like he's not the only one who's full of self importance and ignorance.

He has a different opinion than you do, get over it FFS.

190 posts on the Andy Taylor topic and this is your second one. Was the first one as interesting?

[AggyBlue]

190 posts on the Andy Taylor topic and this is your second one. Was the first one as interesting?

Hey Stalin, you tell me, you've obviously checked.

I suppose you'd rather I post the same point over and over and over and over like some others

[den]

Chill Aggy.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Hey Stalin, you tell me, you've obviously checked.

I suppose you'd rather I post the same point over and over and over and over like some others

Which is what r6 does.

[T4E]

Which is what r6 does.

Perhaps so, but he always does it in a respectful and articulate way. Which is more than can be said for the responses he elicits.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Perhaps so, but he always does it in a respectful and articulate way. Which is more than can be said for the responses he elicits.

That's ######!

[American]

Agree with you on Martin, who bought when he was 17 (?). He impressed, and gets offered occasional first team chances.

And as for Pedersen, agree wholeheartedly! But thats a different issue entirely!

But is it? Why not play Treacy as a sub, as he can't do any worse? And if he does do worse, then you know in the summer to go find another left midfielder for cover.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I sincerely hope that when the benches are expanded to 7, the extra slots are used for youth players who can be thrown on at the end of a 2 or more goal match.

[herbergeehh]

I agree, though we don't have a lot of them.. 2 or more goal matches, that is.

[American]

I'd like to know how playing Taylor today would have been worse than playing Reid....