[Archived] Blackburn Rovers Independent Supporters Asscn

[Paul]

Tris has a very good point here.

Could someone answer two questions:

1. Why was Tris excluded, as described above?

2. Has there been a vote to send someone to the FSF?

For BRISA to work, it has to have the confidence of the members, and more importantly, potential members. It cannot be allowed to become an exclusive club.

362174[/snapback]

1. There is a forum on the BRISA web site called "Committee". The only people who have access to that forum are those on the committee. Tris, at his own choice as far as I am aware, is no longer a committee member. If Tris wants to rejoin the committee he's very welcome. The "committee forum" exists so the committee can discuss the boring day to day workings of BRISA - like meeting dates, newsletter content, membership badges, having a go at each other when we don't agree etc. Do you want all this public? After the effort I have put into talk with Tris about just this matter I am utterly astonished by his reaction.

2. The committee agreed Scott would represent BRISA at the FSF initially. Then, as we have said endlessly, there will be an AGM at the end of this season. At the AGM the entire committee wil stand down. The membership who are present at the AGM will then be free to elect a new committee. Naturally we will find a method for those who cannot be present at the meeting to cast a vote.

We don't even know when the next FSF meeting is, how long it takes to join etc. The application forms require us to name a representative. This is about FILLING IN A FORM or even a storm in a tea cup.

BRISA is NOT an exclusive club. I cannot repeat often enough EVERYONE is welcome to EVERY meeting. We had TEN new members present last Thursday. That's people who had never been to a BRISA meeting before.

Still I don't believe some people will be satisfied until they are reading every last bit of mundane crap we post in the committee forum.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Paul

[dave birch]

Thanks for the prompt reply, Paul.

I don't think that too many on this (or any other board) would be aware of your discussions with Tris. So his points seem to be fairly reasonable to someone new to the discussion. His reaction may have been over the top, but your response cleared the air in that respect.

As for point 2, is it not a little early to be joining FSF? Shouldn't BRISA learn to walk, before it starts running with the more established groups? Let BRISA find it's own agenda, then join, and then present the issues which affect our team the most.

[stuwilky]

As for point 2, is it not a little early to be joining FSF? Shouldn't BRISA learn to walk, before it starts running with the more established groups? Let BRISA find it's own agenda, then join, and then present the issues which affect our team the most.

362183[/snapback]

That was my concern dave initially, but having spent a little time chatting to Mark Longden at the launch night he couldn't enthuse enough about it.

One of the big things he talked about was support, some of these folks have been doing it for years, others have just taken the reigns from the predecessors etc.

Anyway Im waffling. Peer support was something he mentioned, through mediums such as the FSF we have, on tap, a network of advice from other supporters.

Possibly something we could get elsewhere without the FSF, but not as easily.

[Paul]

Thanks for the prompt reply, Paul.

I don't think that too many on this (or any other board) would be aware of your discussions with Tris. So his points seem to be fairly reasonable to someone new to the discussion. His reaction may have been over the top, but your response cleared the air in that respect.

As for point 2, is it not a little early to be joining FSF? Shouldn't BRISA learn to walk, before it starts running with the more established groups? Let BRISA find it's own agenda, then join, and then present the issues which affect our team the most.

362183[/snapback]

No one is aware of anyhting I may or may not have said to Tris....unless he chose to share it.

As for the FSF. Yes we are learning to walk and making mistakes as we go. For that reason alone I think we should join the FSF. There are people in this organisation who can help and guide us. BRISA will take more from the FSF than it contributes in the foreseeable future.

[SouthAussieRover]

Oh dear.

Might be requesting my fiver back if this is how it's going to be.

A bit too much spitting the dummy/throwing the toys out of the pram for my liking

When do the current committee propose to hold the first formal elections re a democratically elected committee?

Edited November 20, 2005 by SouthAussieRover

[Alan75]

When do the current committee propose to hold the first formal elections re a democratically elected committee?

362198[/snapback]

Taken from the Q&A Section of the BRISA Web Site.

BRISA Q&A

All members of BRISA will be able to stand for election to the committee. There are no barriers. The current interim committee will stand down in the summer and an AGM will be held to elect a new committee.

The idea of a BRISA came about through informal discussions between various supporters at matches. A separate ISA forum was created on BRFCS.com to discuss ideas and proposals, and various members who had shown a previous interest in the topic were given access to the forum.

As these discussions took take shape it was decided we should hold a more formal meeting (at The Fernhurst on 28/01/05) where ideas about how best to set up an ISA could be debated. Anyone who had access to the ISA forum on BRFCS.com was invited to attend the meeting, six of us did, so this became the initial steering group!

This steering group increased in size as BRISA got closer to it's official launch. After the launch, all those steering group members who wanted to continue running BRISA formed the interim BRISA committee.

As stated earlier, this interim committee will stand down at the AGM in the summer and a new committee will be elected. All BRISA members will be able to stand for this election.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

I must admit reading the last page or two has caused me concerns,infighting already?

[SouthAussieRover]

Thanks Alan75.

Sounds like things may need to be brought forward on the election front though

[Mattyblue]

I cannot state enough that BRISA is working extremely harmoniously considering how much we are trying to get through and the varying opinions being expressed.

People have to get to grips with the fact that this is an INTERIM period, I feel it would be unwise to set up an elected committee at this stage because nobody really has an idea of how much work is involved (if I sound like a Soviet dictator promising free and fair elections at some distant point, I apologise!).

I would all hope that we all want BRISA to to be a success, so instead of petty squabbles and political point scoring why don't we all have a bit of patience and get behind the project at this challenging but also very exciting time.

[Manchester Blue]

Paul I understand your annoyance but I really don't think your stance is helping one bit. The nature of BRISA and indeed of any committee is that you are there to be shot at. It must be immensley frustrating to put as much effort in as you have only to take criticism but that is the nature of what you are doing. If you respond with sarcasm and snappy replies you will only help undo the hard work you have all put in.

Keep up the hard work.

[Paul]

I quite agree MB

[Tris]

I must admit reading the last page or two has caused me concerns,infighting already?

362210[/snapback]

I don't think anyone should be concerned - and infighting is far too strong a word to cover what is an open and necessary discussion.

BRISA has got off to a fantastic start - way better than was hoped - and that is thanks to the efforts that everyone has put in, and also thanks to the principles which define how BRISA works.

BRISA absolutely has to stick to those principles of being open and democratic.

For me, it is not democratic for the committee to be nominating individuals to represent the membership on a national body at this early stage. Does BRISA even have a defined agenda on national issues yet?

It's that simple. Before deciding who goes to FSF meetings (which according to the summary of Thursday's meeting quoted above has already happened), let's ensure that the membership ( a ) has approved any agenda or position, and ( b ) has mandated the individuals concerned to represent them.

For what it's worth, I think Scott will get that mandate when the time comes and will do a decent job, but just now we're trying to run before we can walk.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Tris

[stuwilky]

It's that simple.  Before deciding who goes to FSF meetings (which according to the summary of Thursday's meeting quoted above has already happened), let's ensure that the membership ( a )  has approved any agenda or position, and ( b )  has mandated the individuals concerned to represent them.

362276[/snapback]

I am under the impression both of those have already happened?

Certainly from my understanding of comments above.

[MCMC1875]

Re Tris posts:

02:12 I was going to say 'put up or shut up'.

18:37 Hang on, is this a different poster?

Edited November 20, 2005 by MCMC1875

[Kiwiwannabe]

As you were at the meeting, and I presume you have the minutes, you will know who took responsibility for that. I suggest you ask that person directly as I am not going to name names.

Again if you waited till the minutes you would see the depth of discussion that took place regarding communication with those who do not have internet access AND thos who are NOT members. You've the jumped the gun and your assumption is 100% wrong.

362176[/snapback]

I took responsibility for arranging the phone number. I actually wrote up the minutes from that meeting and the number is included on the minutes. The number has been available from that date and is still available now. It appears that it has been overlooked/forgotten when flyers, etc were designed.

[Ste B]

but just now we're trying to run before we can walk.

362276[/snapback]

I don't disagree with anything else you put on the post above, but I would suggest that we are taking things at the correct pace. At this moment, the ISA have given Scott a mandate to investigate what is involved in joining up with the FSF, and to take the intial discussions forwards. There are a lot of questions to be asked, and eventually a lot more to be put to our membership. Scott having done 99% of the previous work on this subject in my opinion is the logical choice to carry this forward. In a short period of time, we will provide a manner of allowing ALL members to exercise their democratic rights on such issues.

[American]

As a dues paying member, I believe that the committee stuff should be open to all.

The "committee forum" exists so the committee can discuss the boring day to day workings of BRISA - like meeting dates, newsletter content, membership badges, having a go at each other when we don't agree etc. Do you want all this public?

If this is going to be an open organization, yes, I do. Proposed content, badges, etc. different opinions (having a go) should be open to the membership to know about.

Would I read it? Probably not. Would I feel better about the organization knowing nothing is being hidden? Yes.

[Scotty]

As a dues paying member, I believe that the committee stuff should be open to all.

If this is going to be an open organization, yes, I do. Proposed content, badges, etc. different opinions (having a go) should be open to the membership to know about.

Would I read it? Probably not. Would I feel better about the organization knowing nothing is being hidden? Yes.

362478[/snapback]

That may well be the case American but, to be blunt, it isn't going to happen.

If BRISA is going to work the committee have to be able to make the mundane decisions on their own. We simply haven't got the time to debate every little thing to death.

All the major organisational and issue decisions will be made at the BRISA meetings. Anyone can attend these meetings. We will also try to get the agenda for these meetings out as early as possible so that anyone who is unable to attend can contribute any comments or ideas they may have in advance. The only things that will be decided in the committee forum are the day-to-day trivialities that any organisation faces.

To put this into perspective, almost every other ISA site I've seen doesn't even have a members forum. We do. In fact, in comparison to most other ISA's, we're very open. However, we also need the authority to make simple decisions if we are going to succeed. I believe most, if not all, committee's act in this way.

Finally, as has been stated previously, all the BRISA members will get a chance to judge us at the AGM in the summer. If you don't think we're doing a good job then you'll get the chance to vote someone else onto the committee. In the meantime, I hope that all our members can show a bit of faith in us and wait to see what we can achieve in the coming months.

[Glenn]

That said. We do make every effort to discuss the non-trival stuff in the open section but if people want to know the weigth of the paper to be used in the newsletter, technical problems with moving our membership database from MySql to outlook and wether a regional unit can be called a branch or a cell then fair enough, we can talk openly about that to.

The problem comes with things such as our personal phone numbers and holiday plans, pin numbers for the BRISA voice mail and banking details. For obvious reasons these are things known the those with access to the committee forum, for not really suitable for distribution far and wide.

Also, actual decisions tend to be made in meetings rather than the forum (that way everything is above board, democratic and documented).

[Paul]

I sympathise with American's view but we have to be realistic on this. There will always be a need for a private area. I'm very happy for everyone I have met to have my home address, mobile number, private e-mail but I don't want to expose this info to the WWW. Those on the committee are constantly swapping this sort of thing, talking by text, phone etc and it's a lot easier if we have one area to do this.

Another example would be if the committee wishes to approach a certain member to do a particular job because we know he/she has the required skills. We can hardly discuss that in public without putting the individualk in an impossible position.

[American]

I think when there is an elected committee, then there should be a private area. But until you all step down and elections are held, all should be in public.

[SouthAussieRover]

I think when there is an elected committee, then there should be a private area. But until you all step down and elections are held, all should be in public.

362531[/snapback]

That was something I was musing over earlier this evening.

One may well be interested to see who's put in the hard yakka on all the itsy bitsy stuff viz a viz someone who pops up and stands for election come season end.

Just a thought.

[den]

That was something I was musing over earlier this evening.

One may well be interested to see who's put in the hard yakka on all the itsy bitsy stuff viz a viz someone who pops up and stands for election come season end.

Just a thought.

362534[/snapback]

How you're going to judge the individuals, I don't know. How you're going to judge any nominee, I don't know.

A couple of personal thoughts to share with you all - I might get told off here.

1] All of the committee are going to stand down and some of them will stand for re-election, that's how it is. Thinking about that, if all of the current people [i don't like the word committee] are replaced by the nominnees' in one go, then chaos could/would prevail. Isn't that why most committee members stand for re-election on a rota basis?

2] Can't remember the second point.

So before you all jump in with a cry of "FIX", It's never been mentioned before, even on the committee forum.

[Ste B]

One may well be interested to see who's put in the hard yakka on all the itsy bitsy stuff viz a viz someone who pops up and stands for election come season end.

Thats a fair point, but basing such a view on what you see on an internet forum doesn't truly reflect the amount of work that a person puts in.

Likewise, theres certain things that committee members may talk about before and after matches which will not get as far as the forum, ie discussions between us all in a pub before/after matches. Some of which because its tedious, boring, some because alcohol doesnt exactlt fuel good ideas, and others because it needs more work before you suggest it to wider audiences.

Theres going to have to be some sort of allowance given to let the committee get on with things, and obviously everybody will have to justify what they have done when it comes to any elections.

Perhaps there is an argument that threads on the committe forum should or shouldnt be disclosed after a period of time, but do people really want to know about the relative merits of .doc or .pdf attatchments etc.

[BRFC4EVA]

Quick question about becoming a member. You know on the address part when you sign up online, should i put my home address or my university address which im currently at, baring in mind i'll be the only family member joing up!

Cheers