[Archived] Id Cards

[Hypo-Luxa]

So I was talking to a mate of mine from Liverpool and he had told me a good while back about ID cards being issued to British citizens and if you're caught without yours you could/would be brought in and questioned or fined or whatever. At the time I just thought it was a knee-jerk reaction to the Atocha railroad bombing in Madrid, but I've seen the issue come up in passing in Brit press and I wanted to know whether there was a real possibility of it passing or if it is just for the xenophobes to drool about.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[andy82]

Get real, this is England.

They will introduce them, but there will be a problem with distribution of the nnew cards, or they'll have fancy technology on them that all goes very wrong very quickly. After the first couple of months, everybody will lose interest, and it will just become something the Police use when they've run out of all other excuses/ reasons to charge people - i can imagine £50 on the spot fines being given out on a regualr basis to blacks, muslims and anyone in a hooded top.

[Gareth]

Our Dear Leader is trying his best to force them upon us, despite no clear reason as to why we need them, as even the government doesn't say they'll prevent terrorism.

The Tories are against them, so are the Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid Cymru & Norn Iron parties, as well as a lot of Labour MPs.

Once Parliament gets back of its hols, they'll be debating the amendments that the Hosue of Lords have made to the ID Cards Bill: including an amendment in to make them completely voluntary, which goes against Labour's attempts to make them mandatory after a few years.

If you want info about how it's going, look at the NO2ID website.

[Hypo-Luxa]

I've been kind of keeping an eye on the progress of the ID cards as I can see our "great and illustrious" git of a leader adopting the same plan after he sees how it goes over in the UK. Worries me because it will be just another opportunity to profile racially and with his track record of spying domestically so far, I wouldn't put it past him to adopt such a plan even IF it goes over very badly in the UK...

[arachnica]

rather scarily a family friend has been employed as the head of procurement for the new identity cards.

is it a done deal? democracy bah!

[Glenn]

I've ranted several times on here about the lunacy to the plan, so I won't again (much).

Safe to say they are going cause the very problems they are being touted as solving (solving ID fraud and terrorism), will cost a LOT more per head than is being touted (sure, the reciept may only be £35, but the tax payer will still end up stumping the extra £170 per head) and neither this government nor the previous one has been able to implement either a major working IT project (CSA, Passport Office, DSS, DWP and Air Traffic control have all been recent disasters) or a major ID checking scheme (both the passport office, the police and eduction have all admitted their vetting procedure have been shortcutted to cope with demand), and nothing on this scale has ever been attempted before.

And that's without mentioning the privacy issues.

It's a disaster in the making.

[stuwilky]

Glenn,

Can I just confirm, are you for or against the ID card scheme, i just cant pick it up from your post. ;-)

[Gareth]

According to the Sunday Telegraph the government wil give local councils the power to fine people £2500 for not having an ID card, even though they're "voluntary".

[Eddie]

I actually think ID cards are quite useful, have them here over in France and basically always have (obviously not but they have had them as long as I've been around) and I'm not sure what the problem is. It's a useful form of identification if you don't have your passport or drivers license on you and if it is the same as the French system you can use it for travel within the EU and it can fit into your wallet, which is quite nice.

Don't know what all the fuss is about really? Being put onto a government database? You're probably already on one. Waste of money? It's a proposal with quite a few benefits and so it isn't that much of a waste, no more so than most things other than health, education and the few basic fundamentals. Infringes upon your personal liberties? Not really unless you are going to do something stupid.

[andyrovers]

People have got something hide.......

[Flopsy]

its nothing to do with it - the Cards are so open to abuse by government, criminal elements or just cockups to mean that they are dangerous.

one missplaced 0 or a typo may well mean that you are tarnished with something that could well be almost impossible to correct as the ability of government departments to change information efficiently, or at all is as unlikely as Tony Blair being a socialist.

Its a stupid idea.

And I have a military ID card and am quite happy in carrying it. and i didnt pay for it either

[Eddie]

Yes Flopsy, but most don't. I think the British are overly obsessed with the potential problems there could be. The ID card will create no new risks, perhaps a new thing for criminals to use and a new area for errors to be made, but the same ones could still be done today through passports, credit cards and a variety of other databases and sources.

I'm not saying that the transition to ID cards will be entirely smooth, nor do I think you should be required to have one on you at all times or anything like that, but the actual basic concept is logical and is used throughout the world. I'm amazed in many ways that it doesn't already exist as it is more useful than a passport as it is easier to carry and than a drivers license as everyone can have one from birth.

It just seems like the scare mongerers are out on this one and everyone is paying attention, I'm not exactly sure why.

[andyrovers]

its nothing to do with it - the Cards are so open to abuse by government, criminal elements or just cockups to mean that they are dangerous.

one missplaced 0 or a typo may well mean that you are tarnished with something that could well be almost impossible to correct as the ability of government departments to change information efficiently, or at all is as unlikely as Tony Blair being a socialist.

Its a stupid idea.

And I have a military ID card and am quite happy in carrying it. and i didnt pay for it either

372957[/snapback]

I too have a Military ID card and am quite happy with that. However some Banks etc dont recognise it as a legal document dispite it saying so on the back, plus it has a photo/signature/DOB.

[SouthAussieRover]

Do your driving licences carry a photo of you (just out of interest) like they do here?

[andy82]

Do your driving licences carry a photo of you (just out of interest) like they do here?

373110[/snapback]

Yes. Although mine seems to carry a picture of Eminem, rather than me. What was i thinking 8 years ago with that bleach?

[blue phil]

I've ranted several times on here about the lunacy to the plan, so I won't again (much).

Safe to say they are going cause the very problems they are being touted as solving (solving ID fraud and terrorism), will cost a LOT more per head than is being touted (sure, the reciept may only be £35, but the tax payer will still end up stumping the extra £170 per head) and neither this government nor the previous one has been able to implement either a major working IT project (CSA, Passport Office, DSS, DWP and Air Traffic control have all been recent disasters) or a major ID checking scheme (both the passport office, the police and eduction have all admitted their vetting procedure have been shortcutted to cope with demand), and nothing on this scale has ever been attempted before.

And that's without mentioning the privacy issues.

It's a disaster in the making.

372683[/snapback]

Great news IMHO . If this plan of New Labour's - which is on a par with the poll tax in terms of sheer political stupidity - becomes big news just before the next election , it will mean the end of Blair /Brown or whoever is in charge . Mind you the Tories are that daft they'd probably endorse the idea - in the spirit of concensus of course ....

[Flopsy]

Its all one happy family, its a poor show when the Tories seem to be united (a front im sure) and the Libs and Lab are determined to pull themselves apart

[Glenn]

Yes Flopsy, but most don't. I think the British are overly obsessed with the potential problems there could be. The ID card will create no new risks, perhaps a new thing for criminals to use and a new area for errors to be made, but the same ones could still be done today through passports, credit cards and a variety of other databases and sources.

The problem is "single point of failure". With computer passwords, most people realise that setting all your password (or pins) to the same value is a bad idea (even if they still do it) because if one is compromised, they all are.

Now instead of passwords, think ID cards (driving licence, birth cirtificate, passport, National Insurrance) and rather than protecting them with a user configurable "key" (such as pin, password or even signature) they are protected with something that CAN'T change (biometric data, well unless you replace your hands and eyes).

Under the new scheme, once your ID card becomes compromsed, not only do they own every little bit of your life (rather than a small section), but you can never "reclaim" it, you can't simply "change the pin", your life is comprimised for ever.

I'm not saying that the transition to ID cards will be entirely smooth, nor do I think you should be required to have one on you at all times or anything like that, but the actual basic concept is logical and is used throughout the world. I'm amazed in many ways that it doesn't already exist as it is more useful than a passport as it is easier to carry and than a drivers license as everyone can have one from birth.

I actually quite agree with that in some ways, properly implemented and secured they would be very handy. The problem is their ease of use (and peoples complete trust in the data they represent) is their downfall. Whilst being very anti the current ID card proposal, I will actaully carry one, because I believe it may prove useful. However, I object to being FORCED to carry one, especially if I don't wish to avail myself of services that require it.

It just seems like the scare mongerers are out on this one and everyone is paying attention, I'm not exactly sure why.

372973[/snapback]

Because it will cost the tax payers a huge amount of money and solve none of the problems it claims (it will in fact make many worse).

... and the problem is not enough people are scared yet. AND THEY SHOULD BE.

As Phil says. This is going to be this government's Poll Tax, I'm just hoping that people like stand.org.uk no2id and privacyinternational can make everyone see the problems BEFORE it becomes law (and more importantly, the money is spent).

[Glenn]

. Mind you the Tories are that daft they'd probably endorse the idea - in the spirit of concensus  of course ....

373223[/snapback]

To be fair, they started the whole damn ball rolling. ID cards were one of the major factors behind me moving my vote to Lib Dem at the last election.

[Glenn]

Do your driving licences carry a photo of you (just out of interest) like they do here?

373110[/snapback]

Yes. Kind of.

The UK driving licence is now in two parts (an ID card part and the old paper part). Neither part is "legal" without the other (although some place will accept the ID part as ID, but only places like libraries and pubs, places like banks still require both bits).

Sadly, both are both easily and cheaply forged (well cloned, somebody elses details with your pic on the ID card) and available (I'm told the going rate is just £50.).

[Glenn]

People have got something hide.......

372945[/snapback]

Too right.

Would you be happy publishing every detail of your life into (effectively) the public domain ?

[Eddie]

It's an ID Card Glenn. It won't be telling people who you sleep with, what you do on weekends and if you happened to do drugs while you were in high school. I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Tiny little card that you stick in your pocket and will offern another form of identification that everyone will have and is also a new government database. It will cost a bit just like everything else and I can understand being opposed to the cost but beyond that don't really understand the problem. Works fine in several other major countries and you never hear a complaint.

My only slight problem would be that I don't think they should be optional, defeats the purpose, and I don't think you should have to pay for them when you pick them up. I know through tax payments you'll pay for them anyway but it would make more sense to me if it was just done quietly that way rather than make you stump up the cash on the day which will prevent many people from taking them and also will make people more opposed as they actually have the pleasure of handing over the money.

[Flopsy]

1) It's an ID Card Glenn. It won't be telling people who you sleep with, what you do on weekends and if you happened to do drugs while you were in high school. I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

2) and is also a new government database. It will cost a bit just like everything else

3) and I can understand being opposed to the cost but beyond that don't really understand the problem. Works fine in several other major countries and you never hear a complaint.

4) My only slight problem would be that I don't think they should be optional, defeats the purpose,

373424[/snapback]

1) It could be

2) That is the reason why 1) is a possibility - the government database could well end up having your school records, any police records you might have (even if sentence has been served or you were subsequently found not guilty), it could have records of all your dealings with local councils or central government complaints, trouble making (ie pointing out that the council is rubbish) any medical records, mental illnesses, depresion, once had an asthma attack at age 4 or had a visit to the VD clininc at uni, any family medical details or criminal records. Its is open to abuse due to a) cock up criminal activity (hacking into the system or civil servants being paid for information) c) comercial activity - the government might sell information to companies such as insurance or health companies.

3)name 2 that have actually implemented this type of ID card with this type of data. Or in fact an ID/Passport/Driving Licence Card in the past 10 years

4) If its optional its crap - we either all have it or its not a legal document

[Gareth]

An updated version of the London School of Economics’ report on ID Cards has been published.

Includes this on page iii):

We are extremely concerned at the ongoing culture of secrecy endemic in the planning of the identity cards proposals. The Home Office has conducted most of its work in a covert fashion, refusing to disclose information that would inform debate, and conducting negotiations in a closed environment. This process is inimical to the creation of trust. This situation also makes further research on the proposals impossible.

We find it incomprehensible that Parliament has been denied crucial information about costs. We cannot see a justification for any claim of commercial secrecy and believe this assertion is misleading.

We are mystified as to why, after three in the planning, no government department has either signed up to the scheme or has provided published material on costs and benefits. We conclude that there still exists widespread uncertainty and scepticism about the proposals to an extent that may make the scheme unworkable at a level that goes beyond even that predicted in our first report.

The main part is that they predict they'll cost £500.00 each!

[broadsword]

If you could offer compelling evidence that there is a genuine need for them, Eddie; and that this government, which likes to come out with directives, prosposals etc, but which couldn't execute a 3-point turn, will implement them properly, then maybe I'd be in favour.

But as it stands, I don't think they'd do any good as a counter-terrorism measure, and the govt will of course make a complete balls-up of the whole thing. All these civil servants my tax money pays for and they couldn't manage to slap each other arses without some diagrams.

I also resent being tracked on databases, which is why I don't have loyalty cards and try to pay cash when I can - maybe I'm just being narky.

Glenn mentioned Air Traffic Control and "disaster waiting to happen" in one post (shudder). The bloody morons used a hard-to-read font on the ATC screens, so that sometimes ATC's have directed aircraft towards each other.

This govt really does need a health warning. The only thing they are good at is spending tax-payers' money.