[Archived] More Madness From Mcclaren

[Rovermatt]

On the day and over the course of the group they were the better side, but are you seriously saying that you think they are the better team? If you want I'll happily place a bet with you on the world cup qualifiers.

Yes I do think they are a better team though I'm not surprised you disagree. It is many years since England have played as the Croatians did or indeed played at the level befitting their alleged station.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Yes I do think they are a better team though I'm not surprised you disagree. It is many years since England have played as the Croatians did or indeed played at the level befitting their alleged station.

Correct

Individually no they are not. That’s what the next coach faces, creating a Team of good individual players with a lack of motivation/ego problem into a proper team

[Rovermatt]

Exactly. There's no doubting the quality of England's players - Gerrard and Rooney are absolute world-beaters in my opinion - but the ability to play quality football as a team has been missing since Euro 96.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Rovermatt

[philipl]

On the day and over the course of the group they were the better side, but are you seriously saying that you think they are the better team? If you want I'll happily place a bet with you on the world cup qualifiers.

Yes Eddie, man for man Croatia are better than the players England have available at the moment.

[Blue blood]

England have played consistently poorly for over two years. Yet I have to disagree with the usual suspects when they say that other teams are SUPERIOR.

With this current crop it is not a matter of talent, because imo if you measure teams on pure talent then this squad is as good as any in Europe. What the problem with this current squad is motivation, poor coaching / tactics and too many big time Charlie attitudes (fuelled by stupidly high wages and an unfounded celebrity/pop star culture that follows them). There is also still the trait to pick players if they play for certain clubs rather than been picked on current form or actual talent.

If we can get a world-class disciplined coach, who will pick players on ability, form and most fundamentally a desire to play for their country I see no reason why England should comfortably finish top of there WC qualifying group.

Utterly agree, my thoughts exactly.

Mainly I think we need a manager who can put back the desire amongst the players. For many playing for the big 4 it really looks as if they don't care at all, they know they've better prospects of winning things with their club. Combined with big wage packets and iconic status it's hardly surprising they're not flogging themselves for england. Beckham and Richards have been two of our best players, and unsurprisingly they're the ones with most to gain from england - it's their best chance of winning something.

For me it'd have to be someone like Mourinho who will put the hunger back into the players, not put up with pre-maddona attitudes (well, if not performing) and will give us a system and get us knowing how to play it. However the FA will probably go for another yes man, albeit one with a bit more pedegree then McLaren (hardly difficult.)

[Paul]

With this current crop it is not a matter of talent, because imo if you measure teams on pure talent then this squad is as good as any in Europe. What the problem with this current squad is motivation, poor coaching / tactics and too many big time Charlie attitudes (fuelled by stupidly high wages and an unfounded celebrity/pop star culture that follows them). There is also still the trait to pick players if they play for certain clubs rather than been picked on current form or actual talent.

Sorry to pick on this particular post.

All the excuses in the world cannot hide the fact the England TEAM is crap. People can spout on all they want about talent, golden generation, this, that and the other but it all boils down to one thing. The team is rubbish and has done nothing of real note since beating Germany 5-1 six years ago. They just aren't any good, it doesn't matter, more important things happen in football but it's clear England are very poor when playing as a team.

[arealbrfcfan]

In the aftermath of all this England madness....nice to see that Carson earned himself a nice clean sheet at weekend and Gerrard scored 1 and assisted 2 goals.

[speeeeeeedie]

Team cohesion is awful. But what do you expect when the top teams have a running fued with each other; Liverpool-Man U, Liverpool-Chelsea, Man U-Arsenal (not that it matters for England as Arsenal have no-one). If you consistently pick from the top 4, which you will as invariably the better English players play for them, this state of affairs will always exist.

I did find it interesting that Ferdinand, Terry, and Ashley Cole all played at the weekend, with Bridge, Joe Cole, and Lurch getting dropped.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Sorry to pick on this particular post.

All the excuses in the world cannot hide the fact the England TEAM is crap. People can spout on all they want about talent, golden generation, this, that and the other but it all boils down to one thing. The team is rubbish and has done nothing of real note since beating Germany 5-1 six years ago. They just aren't any good, it doesn't matter, more important things happen in football but it's clear England are very poor when playing as a team.

So you dont think that the likes of Owen, Rooney, Gerrard, etc etc are not top International level players? Agreed as a team we have been pants for over 2-3 years but i believe this in not due to a lack of talent , moreover the problems i listed in my original post. You ask Bilic who he would have from England if he could and their would be very few Croatians that get into a combined XI, yet what thet have is a passionate coach, a good team ethic and a will to do well for their country. Something Engalnd have lacked since Euro 2004.

Out of the two starting XI on wens if measured in terms of raw talant only Modric, Eduardo & Kraclaer would get into a combined XI, and thats without the availaibilty of Owem , Rooney etc

[Paul]

So you dont think that the likes of Owen, Rooney, Gerrard, etc etc are not top International level players?

Well I don't think Gerrard is a top international, more of a run all day, good PL player. You have taken my point completely the wrong way round. I said the TEAM, I even put it in big letters for the hard of hearing. There are some good, even international class players in the team, but it is a very poor TEAM and it's a team game.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Well I don't think Gerrard is a top international, more of a run all day, good PL player. You have taken my point completely the wrong way round. I said the TEAM, I even put it in big letters for the hard of hearing. There are some good, even international class players in the team, but it is a very poor TEAM and it's a team game.

You Obviously dont watch much football outside of rovers ,if you honestly believe that gerrard is not one of the best players in his postion in the world

[neekoy]

Gerrard is one of the best players at club level in the world but has done nothing of note in how many years of playing with the England team.

I get tired of it's not the players, it's the management, it's the tactics, it's the training regime, it's the pitch, it's too much football . The players are simply not that good. Individually, as a team, whatever.

Ask Bilic who he would have from the England team and he would pick one or two players that would strengthen. In fact they just did them twice, why we he need to change anything?

England haven't beaten a team ranked above them in a competitive match for over 5 years. Surewly with the WEALTH of supposed talent they would manage at least ONE measly little victory?

Edited November 26, 2007 by neekoy

[philipl]

Agreed neekoy.

Croatia at international level are man for man better than England all over the park.

How many times have players really looked brilliant and huge prospects for international level but never find a performance for their country?

We have half an England team full of those characters at the moment.

[jim mk2]

I've just stopped laughing.

Thankyou to Mr McClaren and his overpaid superstars for saving us from watching you in Euro 2008.

Here's to a technically superior group of teams hopefully entertaining us come next June.

Said the Englishman.

[waynerovers]

i've been following this forum for the last five years and i have a lot of respect for the opinions i've read but i'm sure you'll all understand how angry i am at the england result tonight, i'm in thailand and before the match i spoke to a scottish man and said that it would be a joke if england qualified and scotland didnt but no way did i expect england to lose to croatia at home its beyond belief the only good thing that can come out of this is we get a good manager ie mourinho.

ps i never thought i would see the day that england would fail to qualify for a major tournament, its beyond comprhension, when this group was drawn i said to my friends that there was no point in watching this qualifying campaign because the group was too easy

An hour after this message i fell though a roof and broke my back

[Paul]

You Obviously dont watch much football outside of rovers ,if you honestly believe that gerrard is not one of the best players in his postion in the world

No I don't for a whole variety of reasons. As for are England any good or not, see neekoy's post just above who sums it up very well. There are 3 or 4 England players who give their all, the rest just turn up and make the right noises before going home while another manager gets sacked.

[SouthAussieRover]

Said the Englishman.

Your point being?

It at least gives me authority to talk about my previous country.

[philipl]

An hour after this message i fell though a roof and broke my back

That's terrible.

I hope you are on your way to recovery.

And don't do a Steven Reid and rip your cruciate as soon as you recover from your back injury.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Agreed neekoy.

Croatia at international level are man for man better than England all over the park.

How many times have players really looked brilliant and huge prospects for international level but never find a performance for their country?

We have half an England team full of those characters at the moment.

You know much about the likes of Srna , Simunic, Pletikosa or Leko or are as you as usual basing your evidence on two games that you have watched. Until you have seen players play on numerous times for country or club I cant see how people can make such massive assumptions . Yes as a team Croatia have been better, but measured on raw talent they are not as good as the English.

Look at Man City they are above Chelsea in the league , yet would you say they are better individually ?

As for you Neekoy you are a poster I respect in the main, but why do you support an English club? when you clearly have such a dislike for anything English. As soon as England loose at anything you are their running them down.

Agreed we as a sporting nation could take some lessons from the Australians in terms of preparation, mental attitude & pride at representing your country.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Bazzanotsogreat

[Flopsy]

but mention bodyline and they get their corks in all of a quiver

For what its worth, I think Croatia has better players man for man, because they beat England twice.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

but mention bodyline and they get their corks in all of a quiver

For what its worth, I think Croatia has better players man for man, because they beat England twice.

So when we did the double over United recently, we can claim to have better players?

[Blueboy Downunder]

Look at Man City they are above Chelsea in the league , yet would you say they are better individually ?

bazza, football has never and will never be about individuals. somebody else mentioned it the word "team", and man for man, croatia go together far beter than we do to create a groupd of players who play far better together as a group/team. i hate that we have not qualified for the euros, but if our individual players are that good, why then have we not beaten a ranked team (above us) in over 5 years...that in itself is a damning indictment on our game at the national level. also, somebody on here wanted to stop blaming the management, in a way yes i agree....but football, IMO, has always been about how a player is coached and the decisions that a manager makes, have a direct impact on how the team perfoms on a game day and also how many points they go towards getting after the game has finished.

we draw level at 2-2 last week, and it was screaming out for a player to come on (probably hargreaves) and just sit infront of our defence and control the flow of the game when we have posession of the ball and to also win back the ball, when they are attacking. last week, we where out coached and as a result were outplayed.

[Ronin]

Could always bring up Greece, Denmark winning the Euros as an example perhaps? Not really any standout players (or at least as I can remember), compared to other players from the other nations, but they played very well as a team, something that England consistently fail to do well.

[Paul]

Yes as a team Croatia have been better, but measured on raw talent they are not as good as the English.

You do understand this is a team game? Raw talent is irrelevant it is the team performance that counts. You have rated Gerrard as a world class player, and I imagine would say the same about Lampard. Stick those two pieces of raw talent into the same midfield and they both disappear for 90 minutes. Therefore the raw talent is wasted, one of them has to be dropped to allow the other to flourish. Talent alone is not enough.

[Rovermatt]

As for you Neekoy you are a poster I respect in the main, but why do you support an English club? when you clearly have such a dislike for anything English. As soon as England loose at anything you are their running them down.

Agreed we as a sporting nation could take some lessons from the Australians in terms of preparation, mental attitude & pride at representing your country.

The support of any English club in no way equates to support of the English national team. To make that leap is nonsensical.

Yes as a team Croatia have been better, but measured on raw talent they are not as good as the English.

Bringing raw talent into it is irrelevant. Raw talent does not win you games or tournaments. In any case, the Croatians exhibited talent beyond anything England have produced (Wayne Rooney aside) in a very long time.