[Archived] More Madness From Mcclaren

[philipl]

In terms of raw talent the Croatians are excellent- they are so confident on the ball.

I have seen quite a lot of Dynamo Zagreb because they have drawn German clubs in Eurpoean competition and I get German sports free here.

Zagreb's results have been a mixed bunch bit they have given the Bundesliga clubs a hell of a fright in every game and the Croatian internationals have been the outstanding players on the field on either side. The Croatians in the EPL are not doing badly either- Corluka and Krancjar are amongst the stand out players at two clubs going really well- there is a huge EPL tug of war over Modric whilst there is no England defender anywhere nearly as good as Simic of AC Milan

This is not a one off as Croatians are alwaus superb ball players- I would argue that Zvonomir Boban was the single most gifted player in Serie A in the '90s. That is not just me saying that, Ray Wilkins used to have commentating orgasms about the things Boban could do. I'll never forget a wildly driven cross ball which Boban chest trapped with immediate total control, the ball dropping gently to his feet- "ahhh, like a slumberland mattress" was the comment.

[Rovermatt]

Boban was a genius. As was Prosinecki. And Suker. And Boksic.

[philipl]

And all 4 of those with Shearer and Gascoigne would be first on the team sheet of an imaginary Anglo-Croatian team of the '90s.

I'd drop Boksic into the hole behind Shearer and Suker and let the mayhem begin!!

Edited November 27, 2007 by philipl

[thenodrog]

You do understand this is a team game? Raw talent is irrelevant it is the team performance that counts. You have rated Gerrard as a world class player, and I imagine would say the same about Lampard. Stick those two pieces of raw talent into the same midfield and they both disappear for 90 minutes. Therefore the raw talent is wasted, one of them has to be dropped to allow the other to flourish. Talent alone is not enough.

The attacking midfielder with most genuine class for International level competition imo is Joe Cole. So best advice is to drop both Gerrad and Lampard. One of em is sure to retire in a hissy fit so the selection problem for which one gets in the 22 man SQUAD will be resolved.

[Ronin]

Remember ol 'Stevie G' threw a hissy fit after getting subbed in the Liverpool derby, so imagine him getting dropped by England!

[Bazzanotsogreat]

You do understand this is a team game? Raw talent is irrelevant it is the team performance that counts. You have rated Gerrard as a world class player, and I imagine would say the same about Lampard. Stick those two pieces of raw talent into the same midfield and they both disappear for 90 minutes. Therefore the raw talent is wasted, one of them has to be dropped to allow the other to flourish. Talent alone is not enough.

In my original post which Paul decided to pick on, I stated that Croatia are currently a better Team than England, and that England’s problems was not a lack of talent. There failings are down to a lack of Team ethos, willingness, poor coaching/tacticss and an unfounded celebratory status that most seem to enjoy too much. Their problem is not talent as suggested rather the above issues.

PhilipL, You do realise that out of those players I listed none of them play for Dinamo Zagreb?, so it goes to show that you have decided that they are better players o the basis of 180 minutes of football against a disjointed and disinterred England team

[philipl]

d'oh.

You challenged me whether I had seen the croatian players at their own clubs so I explained that I had accidentally seen quite a lot of Dynamo Zagreb who supply virtually all the Croatia-based Croatian internationals this season.

I didn't think I would need to explain that this season I have also seen at least one game each of Arsenal, Manchester City, Portsmouth, AC Milan, Borussia Dortmund, Werder Bremen, Hamburg, Hertha Berlin, Schalke 04, Monaco, Real Bettis, Shakhtar Donetsk and Spartak Moscow where the other Croatian internationals play, but seeing it is you Jason, I have just done so. I am nice that way.

I have also seen Croatia in other international matches not against England and seen them live at the National Stadium in Malta.

[Bing]

Well I don't think Gerrard is a top international, more of a run all day, good PL player. You have taken my point completely the wrong way round. I said the TEAM, I even put it in big letters for the hard of hearing. There are some good, even international class players in the team, but it is a very poor TEAM and it's a team game.

I absolutely agree.

Gerrard has exceptional work rate and can strike the ball tremendously as witnessed at Newcastle. But in terms of making the play or being a pivotal central midfielder he falls way short. In the 2005 Champions League final, Gerrard scored an important goal but Dietmar Hamman was the player responsible for balancing Liverpool's ship and that's because Gerrard does not have the discipline or the intelligence to play effectively as one of two central midfielders.

The pundits scream blue murder when Benitez shunts him to the right but he isn't actually as good a central midfielder as either Mascherano or Alonso. Mascherano and Alonso have the ability to retain possession in midfield with intelligence passing and movement, and also to screen their defence responsibly. Gerrard is a match-winner, but he's lacking as a footballer.

He's exactly the same as Lampard. Neither have the skills to suit the international, or European, style and both have their best success when played alongside TWO midfielders with better understanding of the requirements in this regard.

[Paul]

In my original post which Paul decided to pick on,

Don't be precious I wan't picking on your post and even apologised for selecting that particular post. However it characterises the general attitude amongst fans and football professionals who seem to feel because we have some talented players we are better than many other sides. Which we clearly are not.

I stated that Croatia are currently a better Team than England

No you did not. Here is what you posted, in full:

England have played consistently poorly for over two years. Yet I have to disagree with the usual suspects when they say that other teams are SUPERIOR.

With this current crop it is not a matter of talent, because imo if you measure teams on pure talent then this squad is as good as any in Europe. What the problem with this current squad is motivation, poor coaching / tactics and too many big time Charlie attitudes (fuelled by stupidly high wages and an unfounded celebrity/pop star culture that follows them). There is also still the trait to pick players if they play for certain clubs rather than been picked on current form or actual talent.

If we can get a world-class disciplined coach, who will pick players on ability, form and most fundamentally a desire to play for their country I see no reason why England should comfortably finish top of there WC qualifying group.

In this post you do not even mention Croatia, let alone state they are a better team than England. In fact you do say "Yet I have to disagree with the usual suspects when they say that other teams are SUPERIOR"

, and that England’s problems was not a lack of talent. There failings are down to a lack of Team ethos, willingness, poor coaching/tacticss and an unfounded celebratory status that most seem to enjoy too much. Their problem is not talent as suggested rather the above issues.

Exactly, England are a poor team for all / because of the reasons you have stated.

PhilipL, You do realise that out of those players I listed none of them play for Dinamo Zagreb?, so it goes to show that you have decided that they are better players o the basis of 180 minutes of football against a disjointed and disinterred England team

It doesn't matter how one makes the decision. Personally the only Croatian I had heard of was Bilic, I still can't name any of their team. I watched the game, I look at the group results, I observe the England players reactions and listen to what they say. I read the papers and listen to the radio. Oh and I reacll England have done nothing exciting for 5-6 years. On this basis one can reach an opinion. England are out, Croatia are above them in the world rankings ( I think), clearly Croatia are either a better team or extraodinarily lucky.

[LDRover]

England are sh1te, let's move on.

[McClarky]

I think you have to judge players in the environment they play in. If you put all the Croatian players into the EPL there is little doubt that none of them would have the impact of Lampard, Gerrard, Terry etc but this doesn't mean that Lamps and co are better players. When you move up to the International game, where the pace of the game is generally more studied and there is more reliance on technique over running power, the Croatian plares on display last week were better in every dimension. Just look at the way their defenders were able to control the ball and move it out of defence without reliance on the big hoof up the park, it was a joy to watch. For too long england have relied on the big boot and this has been shown repeatedly to be not good enough. I just hope that this is a wake up call and we might see the end of the likes of Rio Ferdinand pulling on an England shirt.

We need to learn how to keep the ball in all positions. We need to presurise the opposition by keeping it when we're going forward and then when we need to kill a game we need to be good enough to keep it from them in defence, England just can't do that at the moment. As great a player in the EPL as Gerrard is for instance, when was the last time that he took time to think what he was doiing and perhaps made a sensible pass. If you constantly try and hit 60 yard balls in Internationals you lose it 9 times out of 10 and then don't get it bacl as easily as you do in the EPL.

I think in this country we make the mistake of assuming that a player is the best in Europe/World just because they are the best in our league but this just isn't the case., as has been shown in each major tournament over the last 40 years or so.

[tony gale's mic]

bbc sport is reporting that the sun claim jose has invited fa to talk about manager's job. could be claptrap, theyre in the process of writing the story up right now...

[tony gale's mic]

football365:

Jose Mourinho is ready and willing to talk to the Football Association about the vacant England manager's role.

The former Chelsea boss has emerged as the fans' favourite to take over the reins from Steve McClaren, who was dismissed last week after his failure to lead England to the Euro 2008 finals.

FA chief executive Brian Barwick is set to begin his hunt for England's new boss within the next week - and contrary to an apparent consensus that he would not be tempted by the job, Mourinho admits he would welcome an approach.

"You will have to speak to the FA to see if they are interested in offering me the job," he told The Sun.

"I cannot say what I think until they say they are interested. Tell the FA to come and get me.

"We will have to wait and see, but I rule nothing out."

[thenodrog]

I think you have to judge players in the environment they play in. If you put all the Croatian players into the EPL there is little doubt that none of them would have the impact of Lampard, Gerrard, Terry etc but this doesn't mean that Lamps and co are better players. When you move up to the International game, where the pace of the game is generally more studied and there is more reliance on technique over running power, the Croatian plares on display last week were better in every dimension. Just look at the way their defenders were able to control the ball and move it out of defence without reliance on the big hoof up the park, it was a joy to watch. For too long england have relied on the big boot and this has been shown repeatedly to be not good enough. I just hope that this is a wake up call and we might see the end of the likes of Rio Ferdinand pulling on an England shirt.

We need to learn how to keep the ball in all positions. We need to presurise the opposition by keeping it when we're going forward and then when we need to kill a game we need to be good enough to keep it from them in defence, England just can't do that at the moment. As great a player in the EPL as Gerrard is for instance, when was the last time that he took time to think what he was doiing and perhaps made a sensible pass. If you constantly try and hit 60 yard balls in Internationals you lose it 9 times out of 10 and then don't get it bacl as easily as you do in the EPL.

I think in this country we make the mistake of assuming that a player is the best in Europe/World just because they are the best in our league but this just isn't the case., as has been shown in each major tournament over the last 40 years or so.

Good post. Gerrard and Beckham keep on and on trying to play killer defence splitting passes every tim they get the ball which rarely work. But because they are supposedly 'big' players it encourages the entire team to play the same way. The result of course and which was starkly illustrated the other night after Crouch had equalised when every time we got the ball we immediately gave it back to the opposition. In fairness Beckhams cross for Crouch was sublime but the rest was Park football at it's finest.

Edited November 27, 2007 by thenodrog

[philipl]

This is an eye opener from the Guardian:

Platini has long argued for a control on foreigners in the Premier League, and gave one telling statistic to illustrate the problems that England's national team faces. "If you do not have so many players what can you do?" he said. "There are 95 registered Brazilian players in the Champions League, 94 French players and 45 English players. When you have twice as few players as other countries it is difficult."

For the record, there are no Brazilian teams playing in the Champions League and four English teams registered 100 players between them. I am surprised the number of English players is as high as 45; are there any English players in the Rangers or Celtic squads?

[neekoy]

As for you Neekoy you are a poster I respect in the main, but why do you support an English club? when you clearly have such a dislike for anything English. As soon as England loose at anything you are their running them down.

Quite untrue Bazz, I love a lot of things English, film, art, tv, literature, comedy, footballing passion of their supporters, backpacking brit women, country landscapes, history ect.

I simply pointed out that the players weren't that good, to which a number of quite parochial Engish supporters agreed.

Besides, Rovers are part of the League that is played in England. I am a massive traditionalist and Rovers to me symbolises football honesty and integrity and history above all else.

There is nothing about Rovers there is not to be proud of and I couldn't imagine supporting another team so wholeheartedly.

I actually have some form of support for a lot of other teams in different leagues but nothing that compares to my love for this club.

[neekoy]

For the record, there are no Brazilian teams playing in the Champions League and four English teams registered 100 players between them. I am surprised the number of English players is as high as 45; are there any English players in the Rangers or Celtic squads?

Knowing Platini he probably thinks Scots, Welsh and NI are English.

Edited November 28, 2007 by neekoy

[Rovermatt]

This is an eye opener from the Guardian:

Platini has long argued for a control on foreigners in the Premier League, and gave one telling statistic to illustrate the problems that England's national team faces. "If you do not have so many players what can you do?" he said. "There are 95 registered Brazilian players in the Champions League, 94 French players and 45 English players. When you have twice as few players as other countries it is difficult."

For the record, there are no Brazilian teams playing in the Champions League and four English teams registered 100 players between them. I am surprised the number of English players is as high as 45; are there any English players in the Rangers or Celtic squads?

Lee Naylor plays for Celtic.

[LeftWinger]

Celtic:

Lee Naylor

Rangers:

Ugo Ehiogu

Man Utd:

Scholes

Ferdinand

Brown

Simpson

Carrick

Rooney

Neville

Foster

Hargraves

Eagles

Chelsea:

Lampard

J.Cole

A.Cole

Bridge

Sidwell

Wright-Phillips

Terry

Liverpool:

Carragher

Gerrard

Crouch

Pennant

Arsenal

Walcott

Struggling now though

[philipl]

Thanks- looks like Platini is not counting CL registrations but perhaps total professional player registrations at CL qualified clubs (over 18).

I cannot see how he gets to 95 Brazilians otherwise either. In fact this points to the reserves across Europe being packed with Brazilian and French talent with local youngsters as much frozen out as Brits are in the UK.

[M-K]

This site says there are just 26 English players. I think Platini has been misinformed or misquoted:

Reuters blog link

[up and rover]

may be its the total in UEFA (both cup and league) competitions not the champions league as suggessted

[RoyRover]

Reading some of the stuff on here is quite staggering. Not even a week after England had their asses handed to them by the Croatians, we see people coming out with daft comments about talent, players and who the better team is. The simple fact of the matter is that England are a second rate international side. Yes, they have a lot of big name players, who performances in the Premiership would make you think that they could perform on the international stage, but this isn't the case. The style of the Premiership allows players like Lampard and Gerrard to perform to their best, but international football as we all know is different game and England's best find it very hard to come up to the levels of teams like Croatia. There are a number of players on the Croatian team that you could argue would get into the England side like Stipe Pletikosa, Dario Simic, Vedran Corluka, Dario Srna, Luka Modric and Niko Kranjcar. They are all quality players, who even though don't live the celebrity lifestyle of their English counterparts, showed last week what talented players they are. They perform both in their domestic leagues and at international level and in this case have the talent and ability to embarrass England at Wembley.

A top European manager could improve England's fortunes, but it could take a while for players to get to the levels of the bigger nations in their style of play, when they have been playing such agricultural football for so long. They have a decent group for the World Cup, but for some people to dismiss Croatia so soon after a drubbing and predict an easy ride after such an abject qualifying campaign smacks of arrogance and over confidence, which is one of the main factors which has lead to the recent demise in English football. The sooner that players, coaches and fans accept that England are a long way off the genuine big boys of world football, the sooner they can set about trying to match them and get to the level that they believe they should be.

Edited November 28, 2007 by RoyRover

[McClarky]

On numbers of English playters in the CL, on at least 2 occasions this season there have been more Scottish than English players playing in the CL over a round of games. Now that is embarrassing. Scotland have actually benefited from having the plug pulled by the TV companies as it forced the top clubs to bring through players and look closer to homw for signings which has meant an overall more competetive league and higher standard of player. Nobody saw this coming a couple ofyears ago mind.

[broadsword]

It made me laugh, and summed things up when Owen said that no Croatian player would get in the England team.

Even after 12 games where we finish out of the places, they still are deluded enough to think they're better. It's incredible. A few reality checks are needed.