Spain 4 Ukraine 0

[gazsimm]

What is a Gazsimm? A bleedin' clairvoyant, that's what!

Not even Villa and Torres' mums would have predicted that one. Mind you, Ukraine were dreadful. My 0 - 2 was just wishful thinking. Now I'll have Marca, AS, the whole world and his perro telling me that Spain will make history and win the world cup by playing beautiful footy and winning every game a trillion - nil.

wish i put a bet on that now lol

[RoyRover]

That was the best performance that we have seen from any team so far. Spain were brilliant today against a very strong Ukranian side. For too long Spain have underachieved and hopefully now, they will play the way they should. After the performance they will be full of confidence and can carry this form on. When you look at the team, it's arguably the best team at the World Cup. The midfield is brilliant, Marco Senna does the defensive duties, while Alonso and Xavi spray passes about, while Luis Garcia drifts around Villa and Torres. The formation works brilliantly, and with the full backs bombing down the line, they have plenty of width. They also look so strong in defence. When you think that they can afford to leave the likes of Reyes, Raul, Albelda, Fabregas, Marchena, Canizares, Salgado and Joaquin out of the first team then the Spanish must have the best squad in Europe if not the world.

[frosty]

Maybe this will be Spain's year

[Rover4ever]

Just to think that some here were dismissing Spain as weaker than Englandrolleyes: , when by all accounts they are at least as strong. By their performance today, Spain should be considered greater favorites to reach the final, unless they meet an in-form Brazil of course.

[Eddie]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. They were only playing Ukraine and everything went their way. Scrappy first goal, huge deflection on the second and a wrongfully given penalty for their third, not to mention the number of times that the Ukraine got through their offside trap only to be incorrectly given offside. They are always a good side, but much like England they always fall short, I think they will do better than usual but I can't see them winning it or making their final, while I don't believe you can say their squad of players is as good as the England team.

[RoyRover]

while I don't believe you can say their squad of players is as good as the England team.

I think you can say that quite easily.

[Drakefyre]

But what was Iker Casillas thinking?

[Ozz]

It's not how you start, it's how you finish. Winning 4-0 and playing like the footballing version of the Harlem Globetrotters in a group match still only gets you three points. Put it this way, they can only get worse. The darkest hour is just before dawn, and you cant beat an egg with out making an omelette. All's fair in love and war, and at the end of the day Brian, it's a game of two halves.

[Rover4ever]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. They were only playing Ukraine and everything went their way.

while I don't believe you can say their squad of players is as good as the England team.

Only Ukraine? You mean the first European team to qualify for this World Cup from a group having the European Champions, Denmark, and Turkey?

And who did England play and yet scrape through 1-0?

Casillas > Robinson

Defence England>Spain

Midfield: Xavi, Fabregas, Alonso, Senna, Albelda = Lampard, Gerrard, Beckham, Cole

Attack: Villa, Torres, Reyes > Half-Fit Owen, Rooney & Crouch

Do you still think Spain is not as good as England?

[Rovermatt]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. They were only playing Ukraine and everything went their way. Scrappy first goal, huge deflection on the second and a wrongfully given penalty for their third, not to mention the number of times that the Ukraine got through their offside trap only to be incorrectly given offside. They are always a good side, but much like England they always fall short, I think they will do better than usual but I can't see them winning it or making their final, while I don't believe you can say their squad of players is as good as the England team.

That would be the Ukraine that qualified first out of UEFA?

And their squad is patently better than England's. Indeed the Spain squad is consistently superior to most rivals. The problem is that they never perform. I can't see them breaking tradition this year. It was a good start but they'll soon bomb out as usual.

[Eddie]

That would be the Ukraine that qualified first out of UEFA?

And their squad is patently better than England's. Indeed the Spain squad is consistently superior to most rivals. The problem is that they never perform. I can't see them breaking tradition this year. It was a good start but they'll soon bomb out as usual.

Ukraine may have qualified first but you aren't going tell me that you expect them to get any further than the second round? Serbia and Montenegro finished above Spain in qualification and only let in one goal but you aren't going to say that they are one of Europe's finest, nor will you hold it against Spain that they didn't win their group.

I still do not think that Spain's squad is as good as England's. They have a very good squad, but I think that England have the better defense and midfield. Very little seperates the keepers and up front I would rather have any strike force with Rooney in it, especially when you throw in Owen.

[Rovermatt]

The Ukraine walked their group. They may not be world beaters but they are a solid European outfit-certainly not deserving of an 'it's only Ukraine' label.

It was only Paraguay.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Rovermatt

[USRoverME]

Terrible refereeing decision for the penalty and sending off

there were a few dodgy offsides calls that went against Sheva in the first half as well that killed a few quality chances

It's not how you start, it's how you finish. Winning 4-0 and playing like the footballing version of the Harlem Globetrotters in a group match still only gets you three points. Put it this way, they can only get worse. The darkest hour is just before dawn, and you cant beat an egg with out making an omelette. All's fair in love and war, and at the end of the day Brian, it's a game of two halves.

I'm still trying to find a cliche I can add to this post... but I'm stumped!

[Rovermatt]

It's missing a 'sick as a parrot'.

Shoddy.

[Eddie]

The Ukraine walked their group. They may not be world beaters but they are a solid European outfit-certainly not deserving of an 'it's only Ukraine' label.

It was only Paraguay.

It was only Paraguay, which is why I didn't get so excited as to think we had already won the World Cup. The Ukraine are a decent outfit, but after beating them 4-0 in a game that certainly didn't deserve to be 4-0 you aren't suddenly transformed from a good team with a chance to shoe-in favourites for the semis.

[Rovermatt]

I'd have to agree.

I can't see them breaking tradition this year. It was a good start but they'll soon bomb out as usual.

[RoyRover]

Ukraine may have qualified first but you aren't going tell me that you expect them to get any further than the second round? Serbia and Montenegro finished above Spain in qualification and only let in one goal but you aren't going to say that they are one of Europe's finest, nor will you hold it against Spain that they didn't win their group.

I still do not think that Spain's squad is as good as England's. They have a very good squad, but I think that England have the better defense and midfield. Very little seperates the keepers and up front I would rather have any strike force with Rooney in it, especially when you throw in Owen.

England topped their group but lost to Northern Ireland in the process, so does that mean that Northern Ireland are better than England?

As for the strength of the teams, England and Spain look quite similar on paper, but Spain have greater depth in quality. Casillas and Canizares are two world class keepers, while Robinson (yet) and James aren't. England have a stronger defence, the midfields look equal, while Spain have more going forward than England. If Rooney and Owen were fit then you'd say that it would be alot more even. It's what Spain have on the bench that makes them a better squad, with far better midfield options. Joaquin is a world class winger, while Lennon looks like a talent, but hasn't had a chance to prove it. Reyes is a better bet than Downing is at this level at the moment. Carrick and Hargreaves aren't in the same class as Fabregas and Albelda. Spain can bring Raul off the bench, while England have an affective striker in Crouch. At the back England have the ability to bring in Carragher and Campbell. I'd have either of those two over Salgado, while I'd prefer Marchena to Campbell.

[Eddie]

Whatever, let's just see who gets further. There is no doubt in my mind that England have the better team, a better first 11 and a better squad. No, the fact that Northern Ireland beat England doesn't makethem better, that is actually exactly my point in terms of this knee-jerk reaction to a decent performance making people think Spain are suddenly one of the best sides. Spain are a good side with some very good side with some very good players, don't get me wrong, but still behind the likes of Brazil, England and Argentina.

[Drakefyre]

I don't understand how you can possibly lump England in with Brazil and Argentina when they looked the third best team in their group.

[Perth_Rover]

I don't understand how you can possibly lump England in with Brazil and Argentina when they looked the third best team in their group.

The main thing spain have over england is the midfield balance. Xavi and Xabi work much better together then lampard and gerrard, as the england pairing play to simliar to work work together effectively enough to win the tournement

[Rovermatt]

Whatever, let's just see who gets further. There is no doubt in my mind that England have the better team, a better first 11 and a better squad. No, the fact that Northern Ireland beat England doesn't makethem better, that is actually exactly my point in terms of this knee-jerk reaction to a decent performance making people think Spain are suddenly one of the best sides. Spain are a good side with some very good side with some very good players, don't get me wrong, but still behind the likes of Brazil, England and Argentina.

On what basis can you put England on a par with Brazil and the Argies?

Edited June 15, 2006 by Rovermatt

[RoyRover]

Whatever, let's just see who gets further. There is no doubt in my mind that England have the better team, a better first 11 and a better squad... behind the likes of Brazil, England and Argentina.

Fair enough, you think that England have a better first 11, but how can you as someone who clearly knows about football, think that England have a better squad and have no doubts about it? How can you think that Aaron Lennon is better than Joaquin, that Downing is better than Reyes, that Crouch or Walcott are better than Raul, that Carrick is better than Fabregas, that Hargreaves is better than Albelda and that James is better than Canizares? These guys on the Spain bench are all proven world class players, while their English counter parts aren't.

If you weren't English, then you'd be as shocked as the rest of us when you saw someone writing that the English bench is stronger than Spains and that England can be considered in the same context as Brazil and Argentina. Not so long ago Spain and England played a friendly match and granted that it was only a friendly, but neither team was hanging back, both teams were pretty much at full strength and I think Spain only won 1-0, but there were very few people on this board, who didn't agree that Spain took the absolute pish out England that night.

I agree with you when you say that we'll see who gets further, because for all I know Spain could go out in the second round and England could go as far as usual and drop out at the quarter finals, but lets not kid ourselves to think that if England get a stage further that they have a squad better than Spain's when on paper.

Edited June 15, 2006 by RoyRover

[Eddie]

I'm not actually really English, so I can look at it from a decently objective stance. Raul isn't the player he was, Reyes has yet to become the player he could be and based on what they have actually produced for their club sides Downing is the better player, Jaoquin is about as overrated as they come and though a good player I would struggle to choose between him and Lennon to be honest and I believe that Lennon will be the better player, I don't think that much of Canizares but I don't think that much of James either, both are alright, while Fabregas will be a better player than Fabregas I would rather have Carrick now than Fabregas.

England's fully fit starting 11 is in my opinion far superior to Spain's and I am not sure that any Spanish player, with the possible exception of keepers would be chosen of their English rival. The only other area I would think of is in central midfield where they might choose for a different combination for tactical reasons, but even there I am not sure.

As for England looking the third best team in their group, you are joking right? Which of the other three are the two that looked better? You can't say Paraguay, England may not have imrpessed for most of that match but Paraguay didn't look like they were going to score despite the fact that England for whatever reason chose to sit back in their own half. While Brazil looked pretty ordinary themselves, I actually didn't realise before that game that Brazi wore red and white and not yellow. As for how I can lump England, Brazil and Argentina together it is on the simple fact that basically every position in the England first 11 is occupied by a world class player. There is a very good reason why England are so highly thought of by their opposition and rivals and why even the foreign media think so much of them and it isn't because of British hype.

When you break down the top 10 teams in this tournament is very difficult to seperate them when you just look at it on paper. I could easily argue with you that France have a wonderful first 11 and squad and should be ranked up their with the best, but you won't have it, had they thrashed Switzerland 4-0 then maybe you would.

[neekoy]

As for how I can lump England, Brazil and Argentina together it is on the simple fact that basically every position in the England first 11 is occupied by a world class player.

You a f'n kidding right?

Robinson, Neville, Ferdinand, J Cole, Crouch? Add to that Owen and Beckham aren't the players they once were (using your Raul arguement) and A Cole out of form you have left Gerrard, Terry and Lampard which would be counted as world class players.

The first seven I mentioned wouldn't get a look in the run on team if they were spanish.

[Eddie]

Ferdinand and Neville are world class, you'd struggle to name a better right back then Neville even though he often isn't that highly thought of. Joe Cole is improving at an amazing rate and even though I wouldn't put him as World Class now, he soon will be. Crouch I'm not considering to be in the first 11. Owen showed this season in the Premiership and last season in La Liga just how good he is, give him more than a game of football and he'll show it again. Beckham is playing very well at the moment, I have a lot of friends in Spain, several of whom are Real Madrid supporters and they all had him down as their best player this year, I think given who is in their side that makes him World Class. Robinson isn't World Class, but he isn't far off, he is a very good keeper and I probably don't class him at that level simply because he hasn't played enough games in big competitions to prove it. Ashley Cole is the best left back in the world, no two ways about it for me.