[Archived] A Quick Question...

[philipl]

Fife, I was too young to see it but, I was brought up on tales of Douglas, Dobing, Dougan, Vernon and McLeod as the best forward line Rovers had put out.

Mind you Ferguson, McEvoy, Pickering, Douglas and Herrison were the ones that immortalised themselves against Spurs and West Ham.

[bob fleming]

OK chaps. Thanks for the info. Som more questions for you old timers / people fortunate enough to have watched a golden era of football, then, 2-3-5 appears to be the formation everyone adopted and was popular with the fans as there was more attacking play.

So, who / when / which bright spark came into training one day and said "OK lads, we're not going to play 2-3-5 this weekend, we're going to try a 4-4-2 formation." Who can we blame? Did football change almost overnight? Did things go straight from 2-3-5 (as such) to 4-4-2? How did football fans react to this change? and how did this effect the fortunes of BRFC?

[AggyBlue]

Wasn't it Alf Ramsey, he didn't play with wingers.

His England team were known as the 'wingless wonders'. Because he won the world cup with that team, other managers adopted his wingerless formation.

[den]

Sorry Den but I have to disagree with your choice of Rovers best 5 man forward line. Your choice was very good, but for me a better line was Douglas, Dobing, Dougan, Vernon, McLeod. That was very good indeed, as was Mooney,Crossan, Briggs, Quigley, Langton. Fabulous!!

Yep, I accept that. I didn't see the other forward lines, but the point still stands to these whippersnappers.

From this forward line, how many had defensive duties of any kind? - Douglas, Dobing, Dougan, Vernon, McLeod

[Fife Rover]

Wasn't it Alf Ramsey, he didn't play with wingers.

His England team were known as the 'wingless wonders'. Because he won the world cup with that team, other managers adopted his wingerless formation.

Yes AggyB you are right but only to a certain extent. Alf and his ideas came along fairly well in to the "revolution". Though you could say that he was the first club manager to make his ideas and changes really work as manager of Ipswich Town when he won the English Championship, but that is jumping ahead of the story. The thing that really started the revolution was the infamous defeat of the England side at Wembley by Hungary. This was a major shock to all the football world, and led to a complete re-think of formations and tactics

Before Ramsey, Don Revie had done a lot of "experimental" work with his Leeds Utd team. He was credited with inventing and developing the idea of a deep-lying CF. This was a role he played himself as a player. But it did not become fashionable until Revie used it as manager of Leeds and made them into a really successful side that was very hard to break down. He was probably responsible more than any one else for the adoption of an ultra-defensive approach to the game. His theory was: first and foremost; dont lose the game. Defence was king. Then when you had exhausted/ demoralised your opponents, hit them on the break and get a 1 goal lead, and having done that make certain you don't lose it.

After this "success" at Leeds various managers joined in and of course Revie became England manager and changed their tactics as well. Ramsey was a man with his own ideas and he further developed the idea of defece first, win second.

I will have to stop here as this is becoming an un-researched and largely incoherent ramble, and I am in danger of descending into talking rubbish as a result. As you can imagine this is a huge subject and could well be the subject of a fairly large book. In fact I have no doubt that it already has been the subject of a large number of books by various authors, but please don't ask me to quote a list of titles as I really haven't got a clue.

Yep, I accept that. I didn't see the other forward lines, but the point still stands to these whippersnappers.

From this forward line, how many had defensive duties of any kind? - Douglas, Dobing, Dougan, Vernon, McLeod

The short answer to your question Den has to be: none of them. Having said that though, you would always get your forwards tracking back into the midfield areas when the other team was on the attack and any of them could occasionally get involved in the odd tackle here and there. But generally speaking this was not a planned tactic it was just something that happened in the "heat of the game".

Edited August 18, 2006 by Fife Rover

[AggyBlue]

Revie did adopt the 'defend at all costs' tactics that eventually earned Leeds the nickname 'Dirty Leeds'.

I wasn't aware of his formation radically changing from the traditional 5-3-2. He did play with wingers although the inside forwards did drop back into a more modern type midfield position.

[AussieinUk]

I know that is an extremely condensed version of the general tactics and strategy as used in the "old days" but it is the best I can do at this time in the morning and my cocoa is getting cold.

Thank you Fife for your time, I have a better detailed 'picture' thanks to you! .. I find it very intersting listening to the days of old - makes me envious.

[bazza]

OK chaps. Thanks for the info. Som more questions for you old timers / people fortunate enough to have watched a golden era of football, then, 2-3-5 appears to be the formation everyone adopted and was popular with the fans as there was more attacking play.

So, who / when / which bright spark came into training one day and said "OK lads, we're not going to play 2-3-5 this weekend, we're going to try a 4-4-2 formation." Who can we blame? Did football change almost overnight? Did things go straight from 2-3-5 (as such) to 4-4-2? How did football fans react to this change? and how did this effect the fortunes of BRFC?

The first club I remember adopting a 4-4-2 formation was West Ham United in the early 1960s.

I don't know who their manager was. It might have been Ron Greenwood. Or was he later?

Rovers and a lot of other clubs waited to see how things went and were quite slow to change.

I think the change for all took many seasons.

Edited August 18, 2006 by bazza

[dave birch]

Thanks, Fife, for reviving many memories at Ewood.

The best, for me, was the 7-2 drubbing of Spuds. Went to the reverse game when we got touched up 4-1.

[den]

So Mr Fleming, why do you want to know?

Writing a book?

[bob fleming]

Writing a book!? "Blackburn Rovers legend Ronnie Clayton wore the number 4 shirt." There's not enough material for that den. The sequel "Blackburn Rovers legend Bryan Douglas wore the number 7 and number 10 shirts" would flop as well.

Florida Rover asked me (obviously thinks I'm clued up or I'm getting on a bit ) but didn't want to start a new thread. Which I'm glad we did as it's been a good read. He's thinking of doing the retro shirt thing. Which is a good idea for the "club shop" really - selling the Toffs shirts but with "CLAYTON" "4" on the back etc etc

So, in what year did Rovers first go to 4-4-2?

Edited August 18, 2006 by bob fleming

[den]

You could have been writing a book.

Chapter one. "Blackburn Rovers legend Ronnie Clayton wore the number 4 shirt."

Chapter two. "Blackburn Rovers legend Bryan Douglas wore the number 7 and number 10 shirts"

Chapter three. "Don Revies' dirty Leeds and their deep lieing centre forward adopt change in tactics"

Chapter four. "Alf Ramsey claims credit for wingless wonders, when it was Revies idea all along"

Chapter five. "How Blackburn rovers fell from grace because they changed to 4-4-2"

How much material did you need? You can't kid me Mr Fleming.

Anyway, back to the topic. I already got told off for railroading your review.

[Fife Rover]

You could have been writing a book.

Chapter one. "Blackburn Rovers legend Ronnie Clayton wore the number 4 shirt."

Chapter two. "Blackburn Rovers legend Bryan Douglas wore the number 7 and number 10 shirts"

Chapter three. "Don Revies' dirty Leeds and their deep lieing centre forward adopt change in tactics"

Chapter four. "Alf Ramsey claims credit for wingless wonders, when it was Revies idea all along"

Chapter five. "How Blackburn rovers fell from grace because they changed to 4-4-2"

How much material did you need? You can't kid me Mr Fleming.

Anyway, back to the topic. I already got told off for railroading your review.

This sounds like a damned good idea Den. Bob writes a book using me as the "Ghost" author, you act as the publisher and you both get rich!

Don't forget the royalties to the "Ghost" though!

Edited August 18, 2006 by Fife Rover

[bob fleming]

This sounds like a damned good idea Den. Bob writes a book using me as the "Ghost" author, you act as the publisher and you both get rich!

[Mr Burns] Excellent [/Mr Burns]

Fife, can you get cracking on this? I'll expect the first five chapters, as above (with the exception of Chapter Three - amended to "Don Revies Dirty Leeds and their cheating no good centre half Jack Charlton") on my desk by Monday 9.00am.

(BTW - Chapters One and Two will need some padding out, just put some stuff in there about Dougan and Cup Final tickets or something)

[Fife Rover]

[Mr Burns] Excellent [/Mr Burns]

Fife, can you get cracking on this? I'll expect the first five chapters, as above (with the exception of Chapter Three - amended to "Don Revies Dirty Leeds and their cheating no good centre half Jack Charlton") on my desk by Monday 9.00am.

(BTW - Chapters One and Two will need some padding out, just put some stuff in there about Dougan and Cup Final tickets or something)

OK, Bob. So that will be chapters 1 and 2 consisting mainly of expletives and other profanities. Will do.

Oh and by the way we have still to agree on the royalties.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Fife Rover

[Ianrally]

I cant remember exactly when Duggie changed from playing OR to IL but I was around at the time it happened which makes it post-55 ( when I left the Navy). I have a feeling it was early 60's because he was still OR when we won promotion at Charlton in 1958 (that was the most exciting match I have EVER witnessed) so I would guess it was about 1960 when he was initially tried out at IL to cover a crisis when Vernon was not available and was an immediate success in that position also......................

On the day we won promotion against Charlton, was Duggie not playing for England against the "auld enemy" at Hampden or am I getting mixed up? Date of Scotland v England was April 19th 1958. England won 4-0. Duggie got one, Ronnie was also playing, Billy Wright was captain.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Ianrally

[Fife Rover]

On the day we won promotion against Charlton, was Duggie not playing for England against the "auld enemy" at Hampden or am I getting mixed up? Date of Scotland v England was April 19th 1958. England won 4-0. Duggie got one, Ronnie was also playing, Billy Wright was captain.

I am afraid that you must have got your dates mixed up Ian. Duggie was definitely playing at Charlton on that day 26/04/1958. He scored Rovers 4th goal from a penalty.

[Florida Rover]

Seeing as I'm the gutless wonder who didn't want to post the question,Bob, but seeing how entertaining this thread has become (all off a request for two numbers!!) can I have a cut of the royalties from the book?

Florida Rover

[philipl]

Seeing as I'm the gutless wonder who didn't want to post the question,Bob, but seeing how entertaining this thread has become (all off a request for two numbers!!) can I have a cut of the royalties from the book?

Florida Rover

Chesh will write a contract for one of the corgies to come and pee on your front garden. Is that royal enough?