[Archived] Killing Us!

[Paul]

Talking to an avid City fan last night.

Glad you mentioned that den, I was on the point of booking a train to Birmingham for Sunday. I knew the next home game was City but hadn't realised it was on Sunday. It comes to something when an ST holder doesn't know when we are playing.

Does anyone know why the UEFA cup games don't show on the official site fixture list?

I see Wigan has moved to a Sunday, so out of 11 home games to 30th December we have 4 that are at 3.00pm Saturday KOs. Also just noticed we only have 8 home games in the second half of the season. Poorly balanced, should be 10 and 9, not 11 and 8.

[DP]

Talking to an avid City fan last night. He tells me City have lost 5000 fans off the gates, over the past two seasons.

Remember when City got relegated 2 seasons running and the board reduced ticket prices to £10? They were still one of the best supported teams in the country, and of course they played some entertaining football and won a fair bit. Now it's simply a case of a hard work ethic and survival in the prem. Nothing else matters. I'm not surprised they've lost a lot of fans, and that goes for a number of teams in that mid-table group.

Maybe it's since they extended old Trafford.

Probably a better reason though...

Edited September 12, 2006 by DP

[Alan75]

My biggest fear over recent years that irreparable damage had been inflicted on what was the people’s game, appears regrettably to be coming true.

After Rovers finishing 6th in the league last season and qualified for Europe, alarmingly only 22,000 turned up at Ewood for the opening game of the season against Everton, whilst 3000 less turned up for the following game against Champions Chelsea.

In my opinion, one of the main factors for the decline in attendances has been the advent of live television broadcasting of games, both legal and illegal. Premier league clubs sold their souls to the TV companies, for the financial rewards which many a club now or soon will have to rely on to keep them afloat. As a town team, with a low population to call on Rovers are one of the first clubs to be affected by the trend of declining gates.

Whilst the TV companies have ploughed millions into the game, it has not actually been the clubs that have benefited financially but the players and their agents. With the sound of TV cash jingling in the clubs bank account, players have reaped the rewards, demanding higher and higher wages and bonuses. They are no longer sportsmen but entertainment personalities. When I say entertainment, I do mean it in the broader term, as the game has now become a tactical mine field with limited entertainment. Certain players have become house hold names, not because of their performances on the field but because of TV appearances on quiz and chat shows, attendances at film premiers or headlines on red top tabloids. Even their wives are now becoming house hold names. One of those even admitted on live tv that she didn’t realise that the teams changed ends at half time, to a point that she mistakenly cheered when her husband conceded a goal.

The on field entertainment is quickly disappearing, the enfaces being on the tactical science, with any natural talent now being drummed out of players. The magic of wingers dribbling through defences and cutting the ball back from the bye line for a big centre forward to thunder a crashing header into the back of the net has long disappeared. In fact a centre forward who jumps more than 2 foot in the air or bumps into a defender, is more likely to be red carded than be applauded for his efforts. The days of crunching tackles have long gone; in fact the art of tackling has disappeared from the game, as the game increasingly becoming a non contact sport. The only players who now benefit are those whose acting ability surpasses their playing ability.

Whilst the saturated TV coverage of the game has been a major catalyst in declining gates, the clubs have a lot to answer for, by allowing governing bodies to continue changing the rules of the game and players to dictate wage demands.

The high wage demands has already priced a lot of clubs out of the market in buying British players, resulting in an ever increasing influx of foreign players, Rovers being no exception. Against Chelsea, Rovers had only 1 Englishman, 1 Welshman and 1 Irishman on the field at the start of play. This influx of foreign players if not already, has to affect the national team.

If clubs had not capitulated to high wage demands, in excess of £25,000 per week for an average premiership player, then ticket prices could have been maintained at an affordable level for the working man, earning less per annum than the average player earns per week. And this too many fans are the cause of declining gates.

Whilst there is a love for the club, there is no affinity with the players, fans can’t even pronounce players names let alone get into conversation with them. Players are so detached from the fans these days how can a loyalty be developed. The days of long term service to a specific club have long gone, as players and their agents act as mercenaries to the highest bidder.

Football is becoming the status symbol of the rich, with the more fashionable clubs concentrating on executive boxes and corporate hospitality. The prawn sandwich brigade as Roy Keane once stated.

How can a working man on the minimum wage justify paying a days pay to watch a game when the average player, whose turned up to the ground in a top of the range BMW, often bearing sponsorship logos, is earning in excess of £1000 for warming the bench.

It is no wonder that supporters are going to frequent local bars to watch the game, whilst enjoying a few pints whilst still retaining funds to contribute towards their weekly rent or mortgage.

[Paul]

Well put Alan, we've been discussing these areas for what, three or four years? You'd think the powers that be would get the message after a while......................we need a hero Which is why Bellamy was so important.

My biggest fear over recent years that irreparable damage had been inflicted on what was the people’s game, appears regrettably to be coming true.

I think the damage has been done and I believe it is irrepairable. The last couple of years I've watched many kids from our village leave home for university etc. They all have been die-hard Rovers and still are Rovers fans but is their first stop Ewood Park when they are on holiday? Simply No. I was amazed to discover a lad I have taken to the ground for 11 seasons wasn't going while he was at home.

The excitment has died, increasingly I find myself sitting back in the stand thinking "go on then, entertain me." It's a natural reaction to the hype which surrounds the game. I don't believe it can be changed and the boring monstrosity the PL has become will slowly destroy itself. There is simply no excitment left in football, there always used to be a hope of winning, no matter how unrealistic you could dream but today there's nothing.

[Fife Rover]

The excitment has died, increasingly I find myself sitting back in the stand thinking "go on then, entertain me." It's a natural reaction to the hype which surrounds the game. I don't believe it can be changed and the boring monstrosity the PL has become will slowly destroy itself. There is simply no excitment left in football, there always used to be a hope of winning, no matter how unrealistic you could dream but today there's nothing.

This is so true, and it is a coincidence that you should write along these lines this particular morning Paul.

Why? Because last night I did something that I have never done before in my football-watching life. I was watching the PSV v Liverpool Champions League match on ITV and it was so boring and devoid of any excitement or goal mouth threat that after about 30 minutes or so mins with neither side looking like scoring I switched over to BBC1 to watch Crime Watch. Even as I write this now I have no idea what the result of that match was, and to be honest I dont even care. This for me, a dyed in the wool footie fanatic, is nothing less than a realisation that I have got to the end of my interest in the BIG TIME Football. I will NEVER lose my love for the Rovers, and will continue to support and watch them whenever and however the opportunity exists. But for me the pay on the gate stuff is going to be reserved strictly for the type of football where big money corruption has not yet poisoned the game, and most likely never will. That means the semi-pro and amateur games. I have often been involved at this level over the years and have always found it COMPLETELY satisfying. You soon learn to accept the lack of pretty passing and heavily coached tactical stuff and start to enjoy the sheer effort and enthusiasm that these boys put into their game. And they are not doing it for the money that's for sure! Not an aagent in sight! The feeling of INVOLVEMENT you get standing on a darkening winters day struggling to see the distant action because of the dim floodlights, the welcome pie and Bovril at half-time to warm you up, and the friendly atmosphere in the clubhouse after the game as you enjoy a pint with the lads. You cant beat it! Why don't you give it a try? You might find you like it!!

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

The feeling of INVOLVEMENT you get standing on a darkening winters day struggling to see the distant action because of the dim floodlights, the welcome pie and Bovril at half-time to warm you up, and the friendly atmosphere in the clubhouse after the game as you enjoy a pint with the lads. You cant beat it! Why don't you give it a try? You might find you like it!!

Sounds like Rovers prior to Jack putting his money in

As much as Jack gave the average Rovers fan a dream - for me we also lost a little of the magic. Don't know if it is all seater stadium, TV exposure - or just that fact that with only 7 - 8k fans at Ewood you knew there was no hangers on, nobody there just to watch Premiership football. Everybody was committed to one thing - watching Rovers. Maybe as our crowds decline we will see a return to this atmosphere - that you only really get at away games these days. Though (obviously) I hope for a trend were youngsters brought up on supporting Rovers during the "glory years" will continue to support but with a heart maybe lacking from casual supporters.

[thenodrog]

The feeling of INVOLVEMENT you get standing on a darkening winters day struggling to see the distant action because of the dim floodlights, the welcome pie and Bovril at half-time to warm you up, and the friendly atmosphere in the clubhouse after the game as you enjoy a pint with the lads. You cant beat it! Why don't you give it a try? You might find you like it!!

Done it in the 70's and 80's and all I did was dream of the old days of BRFC in the 1st Div. You are talking as most older people do Fife I'm afraid. My old man rarely went after the 60's for the same reasons. Johnny Haynes earning £100 pw put people off too if I rem correctly. All this elderly guff and rumble is quite natural and in fact appears to be hereditary.

I too am bored with that Champions League crap but imo that is down to the ceding, league format and the fact that partaking clubs really dont need to be Champions. Liverpool in fact have NEVER been Champions of the Prem. It's all crap and its designed solely to stop the big clubs from exiting early. I went out with 10 mins to go and I still do not know the result now! It really doesn't matter much does it? A return to a genuine knock out format would correct most of that

Excitement in the Prem is on the wane for the same reason. We can all make a damned good pot at naming the top 2 and the bottom 2 now. The playing fields must be levelled before interest will return.

Blue Phil jokes that it is Jan and I who fuel the players exhorbitant wages but thats largely bllox! Its the people who subscribe to Sky sports and the couch potatoe ale can pub watchers who are doing that if only they had the intellect to see it.

Edited September 13, 2006 by thenodrog

[Tris]

Well put Alan, we've been discussing these areas for what, three or four years? You'd think the powers that be would get the message after a while......................we need a hero Which is why Bellamy was so important.

Hero? Craig Bellamy??

But he epitomises the overpaid thug that Alan refers to!

With his Bentley Continental and his Ferrari and his impending assualt case, not to mention the guilty plea for failing to produce an insurance document at the court hearing for that offence earlier in the year.

He's not a hero. He's a gifted footballer, but he's not the sort of hero I think you're looking for Paul.

Edited September 13, 2006 by Tris

[thenodrog]

Well said Tris. An injection of reallity serum to this thread was well overdue.

[Flopsy]

I dont go anymore because I cant afford the fuel and the ticket - I can manage one but not both.

I've been a few times to watch Warwickshire play in all formats of the county season, this summer and really enjoyed it. Given a choice to pay £50 to go and watch rovers (fuel and ticket). Or £50 to watch cricket (Bus, ticket, lager and food) I'd go for cricket nearly everyday.

[sleepyjack]

I probably missed someone else posting this.

The 'most dedicated' football fans spend nearly £100,000 following their team during a lifetime.

BBC

[daren]

Contrast all that that with Barcelona. Barcelona paid UNICEF €1.5 million for the next five years for the use of their logo. All the players are contributing a percentage of their wages. Even if it's only 1%, what's that going to come to? I'm sure none of them are caught for a fiver.

Given that this is the first logo that Barcelona have EVER put on the front of their jersey, and that ManU get £50 something million (note the pounds) it's not unreasonable to assume Barca could have made in excess of €60 million (note the euro again) per year on a shirt sponsorship deal.

They also put on one hell of a show last night, as they usually do. A shining light of example.

As someone pointed out recently, wages were on a downward trend (simple economics taking their toll) recently. Then Roman bought Chelsea, sparking another feeding frenzy by players and their agents.

Edit:

As an aside, giving out about Sky and all that is all very well, but spare a thought for myself in Ireland, the Norwegian lads, and the dedicated chaps on the board from Hong Kong and the UAE. You lads living in, about, or within reasonable travelling distance of Ewood can do things like get season tickets, but for us it's a major logistical undertaking, with associated planning and expense to get to Ewood for any game in a season. If it wasn't for television we'd see even less of Rovers than we do! And that chap who mentioned his £100 pound overhead, well done for making the effort! And I'll see you all at some stage in the new year.

Edited September 13, 2006 by daren

[CAPT KAYOS]

Some excellent posts and reasoning above folks - Alan 75/Paul I doff my cap to you guys.

TND Think I can see the reasoning behind some of your posts now

This to me typifies it to me though from the link to the Guardian from Paul's post

'Once upon a time when Spurs issued their fixture list, my diary revolved around it and I'd go to 40 games a season'

Obviously for me it was Rovers but I think you get the gist - interesting also the post from Jon the Rovers fan

[roversWASmylife]

I don't hear anyone ranting over the price of an ST at Ewood but I would flatly refuse to pay £36 to watch, week after week. Very occassionally I might be persuaded to pay that but not on a regular basis.

It's all be done to death; KO times, Sky, uncompetitive leagues, prices, player's wages and attitudes. I don't think the clubs realise just how bored and disillusioned fans have become. The PL must be the classic example of how not to run professional sport. It simply isn't the great league the PL would have us believe.

As I'm not a season ticket holder this year, I've been to one game so far this season, Everton at home and that costed me £36. I didn't know the cost of the ticket as I went and got my ticket at aboout 6.30pm that evening but since I was there I thought I might as well.

City at home this weekend, I'm not going, won't pay £30+ and extra costs a few pints etc when I can happily watch the game for nothing. I'll go to the Wigan game as it'll be my last one I'll have chance to go to one for a while.

I see Wigan has moved to a Sunday, so out of 11 home games to 30th December we have 4 that are at 3.00pm Saturday KOs. Also just noticed we only have 8 home games in the second half of the season. Poorly balanced, should be 10 and 9, not 11 and 8.

Since we're in UEFA we all knew that some games were going to be moved. But I didn't know it was so many, hence why one of my mates who works on Sunday's, didn't renew his season ticket and goes when he feels like it now.

[Roaming Rover]

I think many of us can relate to this

I went to an FC game last season and even though I wanted them to lose as they are still part of Man U it was a fantstic experience. The buzz in the pub, everyone standing for 90 mins with non stop singing. The fans relationship with the players, management and even stewards and ball boys was something long sonce gone in top flight football.

If they went a goal down, they didn;t moan they just sang 'you'll wish you'd never scored' to the opposition and as in the god old days it created some fantastic banter.

[Paul]

He's not a hero. He's a gifted footballer, but he's not the sort of hero I think you're looking for Paul.

Tris, yes of course you're quite right. Bellamy wasn't a hero of the sort I think of but he was important.

When Hughesy signed Bellamy I shrugged my shoulders and thought so what? Here we had a notorious footballer with, I thought, relatively little ability, known mainly for his antics. Now he may be a thick little whatsit but over the season at Ewood I grew to be excited by the prospect of him being in the team, when we had the ball and it might go to Bellamy I felt excitment. It wasn't just me and it was/is important. There is no excitment in our team at the moment.

I've seen two games and I'm fed up already. We've 11 home PL games by Christmas meaning the second half of the season will be spread all over the place. Chances are Rovers will be stuffed on Thursday which leaves a possibility in the League Cup (don't know what its called now), providing the big four field reserves, and maybe the FA Cup. The feeling I get from the team is we are in for a season of couldn't care less.

It's not so long ago I'd post on here about how we need to get behind the players etc, Alan was the same. Equally I used to be sad enough to work out where we would be if we won and other results went a certain way. Now? Well every club in our position is left with nothing but mediocrity.

Fife - I watched five minutes of Liverpool and gave up. As for Chelsea, Ballack scored a penalty and Mourhino ranted at the press about Lampard. Can anyone tell me who they played and the result? I don't know.

[RevidgeBlue]

Sounds like Rovers prior to Jack putting his money in

As much as Jack gave the average Rovers fan a dream - for me we also lost a little of the magic. Don't know if it is all seater stadium, TV exposure - or just that fact that with only 7 - 8k fans at Ewood you knew there was no hangers on, nobody there just to watch Premiership football. Everybody was committed to one thing - watching Rovers. Maybe as our crowds decline we will see a return to this atmosphere - that you only really get at away games these days. Though (obviously) I hope for a trend were youngsters brought up on supporting Rovers during the "glory years" will continue to support but with a heart maybe lacking from casual supporters.

I have to strongly disagree with that, I've watched us at the lowest level we've ever competed at (old division three, League one now) and old division two inbetween. Ggenerally what was on offer on the pitch in terms of entertainment and off the pitch in terms of facilities was pretty dire compared with 1990 onwards. They weren't the "good old days" at all.

OK, maybe some years we had a realistic chance of winning promotion, and at the moment we won't win the championship, but these days the equivalent is sneaking into 4th spot and facing a different grade of opposition like Barcelona in the Champions League. We also now have two fairly realistic chances of winning a domestic cup every year which we never had in the "good old days"

Having said that, you get good and bad matches at every level and it is patently obvious when a player or group of players is not giving their all. Paul is right when he says we need a hero like Bellamy, if he produces the stuff of wonderment on the pitch for Blackburn Rovers - who cares what scrapes he gets into in his private life?

You need that sort of figure at whatever level you're at, be it Tony Field, Roger Jones, Duncan McKenzie, Noel Brotherston, Simon Garner, Alan Shearer, Damien Duff, Craig Bellamy. Someone the fans can identify with (whilst they're still at your club these days) who has you on the edge of your seat in anticipation, wondering what they're going to do next - even if they haven't done anything yet.! I don't think we have anyone of that ilk at the club at the moment.

As for dropping off of fans, I don't suppose our rate of "churn" is much different to anyone else's - just that we haven't got the same number of fans to replace those who drop off having understandably got brassed off with prices, silly kick off times, a*******s like Ashley Cole etc.

[mjs]

They weren't the "good old days" at all.

They might not have been in terms of quality, but I enjoyed them much more than I enjoy the current era of a game that is way over-hyped, over-exposed and full of greed.

I accept that things move on with time, but they don't always necessarily move in the right direction.

[AggyBlue]

They weren't the "good old days" at all.

Oh yes they were and all for the cost of some loose change.

[Fife Rover]

They weren't the "good old days" at all.

The days you refer to as the "good old days" RB were in the 70's and yes they were OK, but even then the rot had well set in compared to the real "good old days" of the 40', 50's and 60's. I and a few others on here can remember them well, and sorry though I am to have to say it, but if you have not experienced these times you cannot begin to imagine what it was like then. The changes that came about in the 60's were so far reaching in every single aspect of life that there is NO WAY that you CAN compare the times prior to the times post 1960 ish. Obviously football is only a tiny part of that revolution, and it is the ONLY part that need concern us here. I am certainly not claiming that everything was better before the revolution but although people were poorer and working and living conditions generally worse for the majority I still feel that at that time the overall feel good factor was greater. Maybe we just expected less out of life in those days!

There is absolutely no doubt at all that professional football from the end of WW2 to the late 60's was undoubtedly better from an entertainment and value for money aspect. There was a seemingly endless stream of really talented and gifted British footballers from all the home countries who played not just for the handfull of "Big Clubs" that you have now. You found international players at every level of the game right down to the 3rd division, and they all got paid exactly the same wages regardless of club. Also this max wage was not a lot more than a skilled craftsman in industry got, so the ordinary man did not feel he was being taken for a mug, and the admission price was usually around the price of a pint of best ale. For this you got superb non-orchestrated football served up by naturally gifted and talented players who did not need to be told how to play or how to foul and cheat either.

Yes RB, those WERE the "good old days" and you youngsters simply have no reference point with which to compare them.

Edited September 13, 2006 by Fife Rover

[tonygreenbank]

If Karl Marx were alive he would be telling us that the premiership has within it "the seeds of its own destruction"! Next year each club will get £30m each from the New Deal. How much of that will gp towards subsidising entry prices? Not much I expect. It could cost £40 a ticket next season which would be a disaster seeing that you can watch the match for 2 pints in the local.The game has to address some serious issues and I might suggest that ticketing is a high priority.I do not believe for one minute that we have "lost" thousands of fans;they cannot afford to watch the game but still have an interest in how the Rovers get on. The club and the Board do a great job such as free entry for the second leg of the Salzburg game but they are competing against an ever increasing wave of multi-millionaire owners who have no love of the game but only profit motives centred now on players rather than clubs.Lets hope we can stay in the prem this season

[stuwilky]

As I'm not a season ticket holder this year, I've been to one game so far this season, Everton at home and that costed me £36. I didn't know the cost of the ticket as I went and got my ticket at aboout 6.30pm that evening but since I was there I thought I might as well.

City at home this weekend, I'm not going, won't pay £30+ and extra costs a few pints etc when I can happily watch the game for nothing. I'll go to the Wigan game as it'll be my last one I'll have chance to go to one for a while.

Since we're in UEFA we all knew that some games were going to be moved. But I didn't know it was so many, hence why one of my mates who works on Sunday's, didn't renew his season ticket and goes when he feels like it now.

But you ignored my excellent advice to purchase a young adult season ticket.

You could have gone to every game you were around for and have been quids in if you'd have made about half a dozen of them.

[blue phil]

Because last night I did something that I have never done before in my football-watching life. I was watching the PSV v Liverpool Champions League match on ITV and it was so boring and devoid of any excitement or goal mouth threat that after about 30 minutes or so mins with neither side looking like scoring I switched over to BBC1 to watch Crime Watch.

Bad choice - I switched over to watch the Egyptian docu/drama , much more entertaining

[Fife Rover]

Bad choice - I switched over to watch the Egyptian docu/drama , much more entertaining

I watched that as well Phil through the modern wonder of a Sky+ box!

[blue phil]

Blue Phil jokes that it is Jan and I who fuel the players exhorbitant wages but thats largely bllox! Its the people who subscribe to Sky sports and the couch potatoe ale can pub watchers who are doing that if only they had the intellect to see it.

On the contrary - both are to blame , those who pay Sky and those fools who happily pay £36 to watch a bunch of ponces prance around a field . At least those who watch in the pub are only paying for their ale - the landlord is paying SKy !

Where me and you differ , Gordon , is that you defend the high gate prices . I don't , not just because of the cost , but because in the long run it is not the answer - it just makes the problem worse . If you want to watch football at a full ground these days then the only solution is to charge affordable prices for the whole family . Supply and demand . Sooner or later even the paymasters Sky will realise that no-one wants to watch games with no fans (except for your goodself and Jan of course )