[Archived] "global Warming"

[Flopsy]

The state of fear got absolutely crucified by the majority of the world's scientists if I remeber rightly. Still its all about believing what you want to believe.

Taxing the stuff that pollutes the most or is most damaging is probably the only thing to do, other than banning the stuff.

But what the government has to do is to use the taxation raised towards energy conservation, cheap or free solar cells, household windturbines, improved insulation, large reductions on hybrid/electric vehicles etc etc etc.

Otherwise Phil and Mum are right - its pointless.

I for one have reinsulated the house and we have low energy lightbulbs and a fairly efficient boiler and heating system. Id be quite happy if I could afford solar cells and a house wind turbine, unfortunately I cant.

I do cycle to work does that count for anything (I promise I dont wear lycra)

[Jimbo]

As much as I'm in favour of green energy, please don't get me started on household wind turbines - these unfortunately are the snake oil of green energy generation as are solar panels - at the moment, but with investment then their efficiency should improve and then they may be viable.

A solar panel (the type makes little difference) has an efficiency of about 30%. With UK irradiance levels and a 2.8 sq/m panel this amounts to about 1,000kWh per annum which, A little over 1400 kWh per annum if one takes the figures from the table in the "How Much Heat Will I Gain?" section on http://www.navitron.org.uk/solar_collector_panel.htm and multiplies the daily figures by the number of days in a month.

with gas prices at 3p/kWh means a saving of about GBP30 per year.

If one has a solar ready cylinder and fits the system oneself then the cost of the bits is around £600, which gives a simple payback period of 14 and a bit years *at present gas prices*. If one needs to replace the cylinder then there are various options, but they will increase the payback period.

Household wind turbines on the other hand Pah ! The heap of cr*p that B&Q sells produces its full output at 12.5m/s, a "strong breeze" on the Beaufort scale. And what 12m/s wind is in MPH ........it's nearly 30MPH and almost never experienced in urban areas - at least not at the sustained levels required for power generation. If you live up on the Pennines, no trees & an unobstructed view, then maybe - even better if you live on the Fylde coast, but downtown Blackburn - forget it - Leave wind generation to the big boys - NOw if there was such a thing as rain generation then Blackburn would be quids in !!!!

[Jack]

Is what we are doing good for the earth? Probably not. Is there a major overreaction? Definitely.

Nice summary. The goverment is scare-mongering to justify taxing us to death.

[American]

The state of fear got absolutely crucified by the majority of the world's scientists if I remeber rightly. Still its all about believing what you want to believe.

Would this be the same scientists he discredited? Those who are usually wrong?

Gee, I'm shocked that they disagreed with his book.

One of your more asinine lines, Flops...

[cn_barlow]

Would this be the same scientists he discredited? Those who are usually wrong?

Gee, I'm shocked that they disagreed with his book.

One of your more asinine lines, Flops...

When it comes to science i'd believe a novelist over a scientist too American!!

Some of the rubbish on this thread is unbelieveable!

[American]

Read the book before you disbelieve it. Plenty of facts that show the other side.

Though you'll probably keep believing the hype of all of the "non-profits" like Greenpeace who make more money than a lot of corporations.

[Billinge End Blue]

<<Household wind turbines on the other hand Pah ! The heap of cr*p that B&Q sells produces its full output at 12.5m/s, a "strong breeze" on the Beaufort scale. And what 12m/s wind is in MPH ........it's nearly 30MPH and almost never experienced in urban areas - at least not at the sustained levels required for power generation. If you live up on the Pennines, no trees & an unobstructed view, then maybe - even better if you live on the Fylde coast, but downtown Blackburn - forget it - Leave wind generation to the big boys - NOw if there was such a thing as rain generation then Blackburn would be quids in !!!!>>

Up here on Revidge we'd well blessed though, surely?

How much profit are B&Q making on their £1500 solar panels and wind turbines? I know grants are available under certain circumstances but if the government were serious about home power generation, these would be subsidised to the max and require a far simpler process to install.

Every bloomin' lamp post (in a suitable location) should be built strong enough to incorporate a small wind turbine...

Better tax incentives rather than new taxes (more carrot, save the stick for the polluters)

People like old fashioned windmills...instead of a white Riverside floodlight stanchion with three blades as countryside eyesores, why not have lots of 'traditional-style' windmills across the rural landscape (water-pumping and corn grinding an optional extra)? They could help provide affordable rural housing too (with cheap power thrown in, for Windy Millers admittedly!)

Electricity, it's the future...

[Jimbo]

It's all about efficiency - Old fashioned windmill are pretty, but their loadings are relatively low compared with the turbines currently used in 100 Kilowatt + energy generation, and they do require nice clean airflow - that's why urban wind turbines are next to useless, the houses etc create too much turbulence and slow the wind down - stick them on the coast or off-shore and you're quids in. But even then, wind isn't constant so they can never be linked directly to the mains so you then end up with banks of batteries for storage and inverters for AC generation with all the inherent losses incurred there.

Lets hope HMG actually get their act together and use any extra revenue to explore more efficient ways of generating as well as the most cost effective solution of grants for insulation and energy saving.

My personal wish would be a massive increase of funding for the JET and ITER and their exploration into fusion generation - if they can make that happen, then there will be a massive impact on greenhouse gas generation

[pg]

There is no point in showing long-range temperature data without the corresponding CO2 data.

Nasa webite which sourced the picture

Argue your way around that one.

BTW Den - thanks for the Royal Society Link.

Edited November 4, 2006 by pg

[jim mk2]

Household wind turbines on the other hand Pah ! The heap of cr*p that B&Q sells produces its full output at 12.5m/s, a "strong breeze" on the Beaufort scale. !!

Thanks for confirming what I suspected when I saw these at B & Q.

Consumer organisations should force the company to withdraw them from sale.

[bb3]

B&Q bless em,you walk in the store to be greeted by wind turbines and solar panels,they're leading the way on energy conservation.

Then in the next aisle they have a huge range of fooking patio heaters!!

I cannot think of a more pointless waste of energy.

The ad campaign is a load of tosh.

BTW would anyone care to admit that they have energy saving lightbulbs throughout the house,yet in the late summer evenings they use a patio heater?

If it's too cold to sit outdoors,put a fleece on or something,if it's still too cold then go inside!

Consuming energy to heat up your garden is utter madness.

[Alan75]

Has the world gone mad ?

The day the government published the green paper on energy saving and taxing people for excess use, in the same news item on the BBC they reported that Buckingham Palace was going to be externally illuminated with floodlights during the winter so that tourists could see the building after dark !!!!!!!!!!

How many trees did it take to publish the 70 page report ?

Whilst reading this topic I noticed the following advert on the banner at the bottom of the page.

Energysaver offer

Can anyone explain to me how buying a meter for £70 saves you 25% on your electric.?

Good shout regarding B&Q wind turbines and patio heaters.

Double glazing, triple glazing, thicker glas, insulate the roof insulate the walls, seal all drafts with man made fibres, how much CO2 is being emitted whilst processing these materials. That stop the natural material in a building breath, which results in decay.

When roof insulation was first brought in they wrapped the fibreglass quilt into every corner of the roof space then wondered why there was condensation, which lead to roof timber decay. Now when the build a roof they install ventilation grills at eves level and ventilation tiles into the roof.

Gas central heating installed in most houses resulted in the sealing off of chimneys, which caused a build up of condensation, the chimney was a natural way of removing vapour.

I better get off my soap box, Someone is taking the #### at our expense.

[bob fleming]

I better get off my soap box, Someone is taking the #### at our expense.

In England as well Alan. Who'd have thought it?

Last one to leave turn the light off will you.

[pg]

I think that all the 'green' hysteria in the UK at the moment is cunning plan to distract people for the disasterous state of their energy infrastructure... ie since privitisation average household costs for gas and electricity have been skyrocketing...

..mainly to increase shareholder value of the multinationals who now supply your energy.

But instead of looking like the greedy self-centered corporations they are who are all taking us for a ride, they start telling you that you must reduce your household energy bill to save the planet.

The government is of course happy to go along with this because it distracts people from realising what a complete balls-up the idea of letting private companies sell you energy really is.

[Jack]

Climate chaos? Don't believe it.

Link.

[philipl]

I am not a scientist but in my view much as I hope they are right, the climate change-deniers are in the same camp as the Flat Earth Society.

It is an undeniable fact that human beings have dramatically altered the face of the Earth in the last 150 years. About 50% of the tree coverage has gone, there are 10 times more of us and we are the first creature to create a deficit- about 50% of the planet's stored fossilised hydrocarbons have been consumed in the past 150 years. That's the equivalent of having a 600 million year long forest fire covering all of the Americas, Europe and Asia.

The science of carbon dioxide trapping heat is very basic and unchallengeable. The figures for the composition of the troposphere and atmosphere are a matter of data records and historic fact. The climate warming-deniers have to explain why these two simple phenomena are not responsible for the shift in average sea and air temperatures which are also fact. Metatrends in global temperatures are also a fact so they have to explain why a meta rise in temperatures is conveniently happening now to mask the impact of industrial man as opposed to any other time.

In a minimax regret scenario, Stern has to be taken seriously and acted upon. EVEN IF CLIMATE WARMING THEORY IS WRONG, the impact of implementing Stern would be worth it in terms of reduced disease from pollution, protection of bio-diversity and conservation of hydrocarbon reserves.

[dave birch]

Climate chaos? Don't believe it.

Link.

Explain the link you provided.

I can see two ways, what about you?

[Cheshireblue]

The problem you have is that even the tree hugging organisations can't agree on how best to help the earth.

Case in point - an old acquiantance of mine has a business building wind farms. He bought the rights to about 20 sites in various parts of north wales (including certain remote parts of Snowdonia where it is just about always windy) to build "proper" wind farms, the sort that actually generate real power that would keep towns lit. Each wind turbine was several million pounds and were coming from Sweden, as they were the only company that could make them big enough.

After getting through the local community (they objected because they were apparently unsightly - even though they could not actually see them from their homes) every single one of his applications was rejected because some Bird lobbiest claimed that the turbines were a danger to bird life.

The government has told all power companies that they need to get 10% of all of their energy from renewable sources, then they throw out wind turbine applications (the only renewable energy source that even stands a chance of working) due to the danger to birds.

You'll excuse me if i don't therefore give two hoots about jumping in my gas guzzling motor and driving half a mile to the shops.

The government can create all the hysteria they like. They have zero credibility and frankly, nobody really believes them anyway. We all know that it is just another excuse to hike up taxes to pay for their other failings.

[blue phil]

I am not a scientist but in my view much as I hope they are right, the climate change-deniers are in the same camp as the Flat Earth Society.

It is an undeniable fact that human beings have dramatically altered the face of the Earth in the last 150 years. About 50% of the tree coverage has gone, there are 10 times more of us and we are the first creature to create a deficit- about 50% of the planet's stored fossilised hydrocarbons have been consumed in the past 150 years. That's the equivalent of having a 600 million year long forest fire covering all of the Americas, Europe and Asia.

The science of carbon dioxide trapping heat is very basic and unchallengeable. The figures for the composition of the troposphere and atmosphere are a matter of data records and historic fact. The climate warming-deniers have to explain why these two simple phenomena are not responsible for the shift in average sea and air temperatures which are also fact. Metatrends in global temperatures are also a fact so they have to explain why a meta rise in temperatures is conveniently happening now to mask the impact of industrial man as opposed to any other time.

In a minimax regret scenario, Stern has to be taken seriously and acted upon. EVEN IF CLIMATE WARMING THEORY IS WRONG, the impact of implementing Stern would be worth it in terms of reduced disease from pollution, protection of bio-diversity and conservation of hydrocarbon reserves.

So I take it you'll not be flying the distances between your two homes ?

[Jack]

Coming up after Doomwatch... the end of the world.

Link.

I was just reading this and thought it was quite funny. Hope you like it.

[Flopsy]

good old littlejohn.

Ive only been around 28 years can anyone older remember the last time we reached the last week in November and there was still a lot of deciduous trees with green leaves on?

[broadsword]

Probably last year.

[Jack]

good old littlejohn.

Ive only been around 28 years can anyone older remember the last time we reached the last week in November and there was still a lot of deciduous trees with green leaves on?

Don't worry about it, nature can look after itself.

[Flopsy]

im sure it can. But unfortunately we dont seem to be able to do the same

[Paul]

every single one of his applications was rejected because some Bird lobbiest claimed that the turbines were a danger to bird life.

One of my oldest friends has a windfarm in Argyll, as an aside it is a thing of great beauty and to stand below these trubines is quite awesome, anyway I digress. The farm has been in place for perhaps seven years now and a second one is going through planning.

This part of Argyll is famous for eagles and during the 6 year planning ordeal the bird lobby (RSPB I think) protested the turbines presented a hazard to the eagles. The arguement was, and I'm not joking, the birds might fly into the turbines and presumably get shredded. After one meeting the bird lobby man took my friend to one side and whispered "Between you and me we think the eagles will fly round the turbines, not straight through them!"

The turbines are there and there are shredded eagles all over the place......................

I love wind farms, apart from the global warming bit, I feel they add a strange beauty to our world.