[Archived] Nicko's Thread

[Fife Rover]

So would you say that Hibs are a bigger club than Rovers, Fife?

I will answer your question with another one. Are Wigan a bigger club than say Leeds U, or Sheffield Wednesday, or even Hibs? Another one: If Rovers were to find themselves in a lower division than Burnley which would be the bigger club?

If your only criteria for how big a club is is based on the league they play in currently. or how much money they have as income from all sources then yes Wigan are bigger than all of these and a lot more besides. I don't consider Wigan to be a big club by any criteria at all, but you people are entitled to think as you will.

And to save a lot of time answering each of the others separately, I will just say this. El Tombro more or less got it right with his list of criteria that contribute to how "big" a club is, and by those Hibs has to be a bigger club than Bolton, Wigan, and (though it pains me to say it) Rovers as well.

And before the inevitable furore breaks out, I will just say this: I am willing to debate this issue on a sensible level with any who can show that they know what they are talking about in regard to the past record, present position and potential, fan base of, and ground size/capacity of Hibs versus Bolton Wanderers. If you can't be bothered to do the necessary research then don't waste my time by debating from a complete absence of knowledge.

[den]

I will answer your question with another one. Are Wigan a bigger club than say Leeds U, or Sheffield Wednesday, or even Hibs? Another one: If Rovers were to find themselves in a lower division than Burnley which would be the bigger club?

If your only criteria for how big a club is is based on the league they play in currently. or how much money they have as income from all sources then yes Wigan are bigger than all of these and a lot more besides. I don't consider Wigan to be a big club by any criteria at all, but you people are entitled to think as you will.

And to save a lot of time answering each of the others separately, I will just say this. El Tombro more or less got it right with his list of criteria that contribute to how "big" a club is, and by those Hibs has to be a bigger club than Bolton, Wigan, and (though it pains me to say it) Rovers as well.

And before the inevitable furore breaks out, I will just say this: I am willing to debate this issue on a sensible level with any who can show that they know what they are talking about in regard to the past record, present position and potential, fan base of, and ground size/capacity of Hibs versus Bolton Wanderers. If you can't be bothered to do the necessary research then don't waste my time by debating from a complete absence of knowledge.

Fife, calm down. It was you who said Hibs was bigger than Bolton, so which criteria do you use to decide a "big" club? Apparently this:

* Potential.............Hibs have potential to do what?

* Fan base............as pointed out by Scotty, they get 10000 less than Bolton and Rovers.

* Wealth................Only one loser there

* History................explain why Hibs history is greater than Bolton/rovers?

* Stature of the league they're in, or could get in.......Scottish v English?

How does that criteria make Hibs "big"?

[thenodrog]

btw.... Anybody there when we played Hibs about 30 years ago in a night match? I think we got beaten 0-1 by an Arthur Graham goal but I cannot be sure and I cannot be bothered looking it up. We were 3rd div I think and I rem they were miles better than us that night.

[Fife Rover]

Fife, calm down. It was you who said Hibs was bigger than Bolton, so which criteria do you use to decide a "big" club? Apparently this:

* Potential.............Hibs have potential to do what?

* Fan base............as pointed out by Scotty, they get 10000 less than Bolton and Rovers.

* Wealth................Only one loser there

* History................explain why Hibs history is greater than Bolton/rovers?

* Stature of the league they're in, or could get in.......Scottish v English?

How does that criteria make Hibs "big"?

I have already explained why I think Hibs are a big club. If you can't be bothered to read what I said earlier then why ask me now to repeat the criteria I have already given by putting a list of criteria of your own which I have already answered in previous posts if you care to look properly at what I say, and without your biased view that if a club plays in Scotland they MUST be inferior to any that plays in the EPL. Quite frankly it is views like this that now shows me that the Scots are right when they talk about the ignorance and arrogance of the English.

I will however answer once more in the terms you have dictated, in spite of the fact that you have chosen not to answer the two questions I put to you in the post you quoted.

Potential: Hibs are presently going very well in the SPL and at this stage no one can say they wont win it. You can't do any more than become champions in your own country, but if you consider being the English champions superior to all others then there is nothing more to say.

Fan Base: I have already described this in the earlier post. They are also located in a big city, and Edinburgh is certainly bigger that Bolton or Blackburn ; in fact bigger than the two of them added together. Plus their worldwide fan base. The fact that Hibs get lower gates than Bolton or Blackburn is purely down to the Scottish public being sickened by the way football has gone. Look at the gates of every single club in the SPL and you will see that the only two clubs that ever get bigger gates than Rovers or Bolton are Rangers and Celtic, and the only reason they dont get less as well is because of "success" (glory hunters), and bigotry. The rest of Scottish fans have more or less turned their backs on the game because of the exploitation in the same way that we on BRFCS have so hotly debated and so many times.

Wealth: I have already pointed out that that is a completely false criteria on which to judge any club. If that is to be the criteria then using the same logic you could argue that every single club in the EPL is straight away bigger than any other club in England and in fact most in the world as well because the EPL with it's TV and Commercial rights generates more wealth for all its clubs than any other league in the world. Which is why I say that is not a suitable critera for comparison.

History:Read the myriads of books on this subject, and you will find that Hibs are one of the most celebrated clubs in Britain when it comes to trophys won and championships. They have won everything that it is possible to win in Scottish football and many, many times over. How many have Bolton won? Have you heard of the famous five? No? I had long before I came to Scotland.

Stature of the League: Do you really consider that to be a fair comparison to make? By that logic , ANY club in the EPL must be automatically a bigger club than any club not in the EPL. I think not!!!

[FourLaneBlue]

I'm not really interested in comparing Bolton with Hibs but am more than happy to compare Rovers with them. I'm not really interested in having a heated debate over it but am willing to have a friendly discussion if you wish.

Rovers get higher attendances, have won MORE major trophies than Hibs, are much wealthier with a far higher turnover and play in a league of higher stature. Those are facts and nothing to with bias.

The point is that there is no one specific criteria for determining the size of a club but when you add up lots of other considerations you can make a rough decision. Right now Rovers are the more successful of the two clubs in a number of ways. Hibs are having a good season so far but you don't win the league in October and they certainly won't be likely to win it at all. Why say I? Well...Hibs have not won their own league for 55 years so are unlikely to do so anytime unless something radical happens and not only that but they haven't won the Scottish Cup for over a century. I'm afraid this big and successful club isn't and hasn't really been one in reality and yes I have read a lot of football books in my time. Once again I will suggest that Aberdeen and Hearts have more bragging rights when it comes to being the number 3 and 4 teams in Scottish football.

By taking all these things into consideration then Rovers are a bigger club than Hibs. I will leave others to argue regarding Bolton as I'm not interested enough in them for that.

[S15]

Yawn, yawn f-ing yawn.

My toy's bigger than yours.

Who cares? Does anyone, really?

[nicko]

It's impossible to say which club is bigger - Hibs or Bolton. The Edinburgh club has more history, Wanderers were in the shadows for years.

But there is one point that matters and goes back to the start of this debate.

John Collins WOULD quit Hibs for Bolton if he gets the chance...and there has been an approach today.

The sad fact for most Scottish exiles - and the attraction to - is that coming to England is a move upwards.

By the way Megson would still be my favourite, but Souey is the main rival.

Think you heard that a couple of days ago...

[FourLaneBlue]

Yawn, yawn f-ing yawn.

My toy's bigger than yours.

Who cares? Does anyone, really?

Nah not really...

it's all a load of tosh actually but it doesn't stop us.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

It does appear that Hibs are the Scottish equivalent of Rovers history wise in a way.

Founded same year.

Similar record and record average crowds.

A smaller 'unfashionable' club but one that has seen more than its fair share of success in its history.

Bigger than Rovers though?....the debate will rage Fifey!

[den]

Potential: Hibs are presently going very well in the SPL and at this stage no one can say they wont win it. You can't do any more than become champions in your own country, but if you consider being the English champions superior to all others then there is nothing more to say.

That's not potential Fife.

Fan Base: I have already described this in the earlier post. They are also located in a big city, and Edinburgh is certainly bigger that Bolton or Blackburn ; in fact bigger than the two of them added together. Plus their worldwide fan base. The fact that Hibs get lower gates than Bolton or Blackburn is purely down to the Scottish public being sickened by the way football has gone. Look at the gates of every single club in the SPL and you will see that the only two clubs that ever get bigger gates than Rovers or Bolton are Rangers and Celtic, and the only reason they dont get less as well is because of "success" (glory hunters), and bigotry. The rest of Scottish fans have more or less turned their backs on the game because of the exploitation in the same way that we on BRFCS have so hotly debated and so many times.

You think it's any different in England?

Wealth: I have already pointed out that that is a completely false criteria on which to judge any club. If that is to be the criteria then using the same logic you could argue that every single club in the EPL is straight away bigger than any other club in England and in fact most in the world as well because the EPL with it's TV and Commercial rights generates more wealth for all its clubs than any other league in the world. Which is why I say that is not a suitable critera for comparison.

History:Read the myriads of books on this subject, and you will find that Hibs are one of the most celebrated clubs in Britain when it comes to trophys won and championships. They have won everything that it is possible to win in Scottish football and many, many times over. How many have Bolton won? Have you heard of the famous five? No? I had long before I came to Scotland.

It's not that impressive Fife.

Stature of the League: Do you really consider that to be a fair comparison to make? By that logic , ANY club in the EPL must be automatically a bigger club than any club not in the EPL. I think not!!!

[thenodrog]

Fan Base: I have already described this in the earlier post. They are also located in a big city, and Edinburgh is certainly bigger that Bolton or Blackburn ; in fact bigger than the two of them added together.

Speaking a few years ago whilst on holiday in Tenerife to an 'Abbs' fan and he corrected me in no uncertain terms that Hibs were not an Edinburgh team but were actually a team from Leith.

[American Rover12]

It does appear that Hibs are the Scottish equivalent of Rovers history wise in a way.

Founded same year.

Similar record and record average crowds.

A smaller 'unfashionable' club but one that has seen more than its fair share of success in its history.

Bigger than Rovers though?....the debate will rage Fifey!

you know I was thinking the same thing

[philipl]

Actually Rovers have a much more impressive honours list than Hibs.

Both clubs have a fair amount of ancient history but Hibs are as bad as Newcastle in terms of doing nothing in my lifetime.

The Trotters outgun Hibs both in terms of record crowds and current stadium capacity whilst on current turnover Hibs are probably about one third that of Bolton. If you divide Edinburgh in half (probably being generous to Hibs as Hearts in my experience are THE Edinburgh team far more than either of the Old Firm can claim ascendancy in Glasgow), then both Bolton and Hibs probably have a natural hinterland of 250,000 and the same potential in terms of crowds. Bolton are about twice as effective as Hibs at turning affinity into bums on seats. A totaly random but useful indicator, I have met Bolton and Hearts fans on my travels but I can say I have never met a Hibs fan.

Hearts fans tend to regard Hibs as the country cousins from Leith (or docks scum).

Player-wise and managerially, everyone from Hibs would be at the Rebok like a flash given the chance but apart from a few Trotter Reserves, nobody at Bolton would consider moving to Easter Road.

Sorry Fifer but your argument has very little validity. A more accurate comparison for Hibs would be with Cardiff City.

One comparison has struck me. The way Bolton have gone about replacing Little Fat Sam has been an utter shambles compared with the way Rovers replaced Souness (who went at the timing of his choice, not the club's) about this time three years ago.

[nicko]

One comparison has struck me. The way Bolton have gone about replacing Little Fat Sam has been an utter shambles compared with the way Rovers replaced Souness (who went at the timing of his choice, not the club's) about this time three years ago.

Well that is not exactly historically accurate...

Rovers spoke to at least four bosses at the time before they picked Mark Hughes. It's called an interview process, which is what Bolton are doing.

[philipl]

Of course Rovers looked at many candidates. There were about 50 which were not discarded immediately, a long list and then perhaps a dozen who were met and four who were looked at very seriously.

However, the press coverage was not full of stories of Rovers being rebuffed in approaches for other people's managers.

At the very least, the way Rovers went about its selection/interview process was far more professional in terms of guarding and projecting the club's image in the media.

[nicko]

The press coverage was not full of stories of Rovers being rebuffed in approaches for other people's managers.

That's not a mark of anything.

Rovers were also in contact with Iain Dowie, Gordon Strachan and - maybe not sniggering so much now - Craig Levein. There was another, but I can't remember who. They spoke to them all and chose Mark Hughes. It took them about a fortnight, maybe even more. There was plenty of guesswork at the time, I will include myself in that category, and Hughes was probably a surprise.

Bolton may have been officially blocked in moves for some of their targets, but you would be naive to think it has ended there. Others who have not even been serious candidates have got themselves free publicity out it it. Like the guy who put the 'ham' in Birmingham.

The fact that some of the press don't have a clue about who REALLY is on the short-list is not Bolton's fault.

Whether they get it right or not will be judged when they make their choice and how he does.

I don't see anything wrong with what they are doing just now.

[nicko]

Of course Rovers looked at many candidates. There were about 50 which were not discarded immediately, a long list and then perhaps a dozen who were met and four who were looked at very seriously.

However, the press coverage was not full of stories of Rovers being rebuffed in approaches for other people's managers.

At the very least, the way Rovers went about its selection/interview process was far more professional in terms of guarding and projecting the club's image in the media.

Just checked back and it was around ten days between Souey going and Sparky coming.

That makes more than a meeting-a-day by your reckoning.

This concept that everything Rovers do is somehow better than everyone else's does not do you any favours. It's a well-run club, but lets not give it magical powers.

[philipl]

I am only jotting down my recollection of what John Williams told the LET about the process the club went through when interviewed a couple of weeks or so after Sparky was appointed. No doubt there are more people than immediately obvious within the club and Trust who could conduct initial screening meetings so a dozen could be processed very quickly. Some were probably seen as a matter of courtesy or good order in the off-chance that they might turn out to be a good candidate- I can think of two former players who would immediately come into that category.

In addition, Mike Newell was reported to have been amongst those met but I don't know at which point he ceased being a candidate.

For the most part, the Rovers had the luxury of dealing with lists of people who had approached the club about the managerial vacancy, albeit many with the caveat that it would need clearance from their then current employers.

Mark Hughes has said he made certain the club knew the moment the vacancy occurred that he was seriously interested in the position.

[nicko]

SHAMELESS SUNDAY PEOPLE PLUG...

There should [hopefully] be some info on the new takeover interest tomorrow. I would have to confess there are plenty of areas to be filled in before the whole picture emerges, but there is something going on.

It's one of those exercises where you write what you know and and hope somebody else can put a name and details to it. I think it worked before.

There should also be a pretty major clue about who the next Bolton boss is going to be, although I suspect that will become a bit more apparent during the day.

[Sandiway Blue]

SHAMELESS SUNDAY PEOPLE PLUG...

There should [hopefully] be some info on the new takeover interest tomorrow. I would have to confess there are plenty of areas to be filled in before the whole picture emerges, but there is something going on.

It's one of those exercises where you write what you know and and hope somebody else can put a name and details to it. I think it worked before.

There should also be a pretty major clue about who the next Bolton boss is going to be, although I suspect that will become a bit more apparent during the day.

Give us a clue nicko,i fancy a trip to the bookies

[nicko]

Give us a clue nicko,i fancy a trip to the bookies

I think I mentioned the three front runners the other day...and I believe the order may prove to be right.

Don't go daft and put too much on it, but it's a decent hunch.

[nicko]

This one seems to be close to happening...

http://www.burnleyexpress.net/burnley-fc/S...ttle.3393747.jp

[thenodrog]

Actually Rovers have a much more impressive honours list than Hibs.

Both clubs have a fair amount of ancient history but Hibs are as bad as Newcastle in terms of doing nothing in my lifetime.

Thats cos scottish football has to it's obvious detriment been dominated by the big two. Ours to our detriment now is equally dominated by a big 3 or 4. I would imagine that from now on the smaller less fashionable cannon fodder clubs in both countries will both win nowt which will serve to equalise your stats. And prob mirror the crowds too. The big 4 will always sell out but the public will eventually be put off by the futility of supporting an unfashionable club...... given that even the likes of the Mags, Spuds, Everton, Villa are always likely to fall into that category. The consequences of the 'Snouts in the trough' mentality prevalent all through the games administrative bodies will be far reaching.

[roversmum]

Well that is not exactly historically accurate...

Rovers spoke to at least four bosses at the time before they picked Mark Hughes. It's called an interview process, which is what Bolton are doing.

They wasted time. I knew immediately Souness disappeared down the road that there was only one choice -

I spoke to Sparky when he was on his way out of the ground at the end of the season after playing his last match for Rovers. I had a gut feeling then he would be back somehow.

[Fife Rover]

Speaking a few years ago whilst on holiday in Tenerife to an 'Abbs' fan and he corrected me in no uncertain terms that Hibs were not an Edinburgh team but were actually a team from Leith.

Hibs ground (Easter Rd) is approx 1/2 mile from Princes St, and while you do admittedly have to walk a little way down Leith Walk to get to it, the ground is approx 3 miles away from the centre of Leith.