Wrestling Entertainment - we know, you don't have to tell us!

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

He can afford it imo. WWE need him far more than he needs them, thanks to the Shield being one of the best-loved Stables in mainstream wrestling.

#SierraHotelIndigoEchoLimaDelta

Yeah for sure, I bet he's getting paid as much if not more at AEW than he was getting at WWE, combined with much more creative freedom and the ability to wrestle in places like NJPW and it's a no brainer. I found it hilarious when he revealed that he got just $500 for doing the "Shield" special before he left - basically a final middle finger from WWE - then Vince called him very soon afterwards and wanted him to do the European tour! The more I hear about Vince the more I'm genuinely worried he has some kind of neurological issue that nobody is willing to investigate. His decision making is just so weird, random and illogical that it does make you wonder how mentally with it he really is. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

I am around half-way through it. Interesting to listen to a big name WWE guy being so honest. It sounds like the biggest problem is Vince. WWE has amazing talent doing their best, but Smackdown and Raw are absolutely rubbish most of the time. I wouldn't even watch them now. I watch Wrestling with Wregret and that does for my updates. 

AEW is definitely good for the business. They are building a nice roster. I think it's promising that, for example, when Moxley came out at the PPV, he destroyed Omega. That might suggest egos won't be running the show there. 

Of their roster MJF looks like a great heel. Luchasaurous looks really cool. I have seen bits of Joey Janela in the past and there is a great documentary about him on youtube by Kenny Johnson called "please don't die Joey Janela". The bump, well I wouldn't even call it a bump, the death defying stunt he did in CZW was absolutely terrifying. I think he will be an interesting character going forward. His valet is very easy on the eyes too. Hangman Pages entrance music and video is one of the best since Stone cold. His clothesline is ridiculous as well. Him v Jericho for the title should be good. I would actually like to see Jericho win it and have a run as an uber heel who thinks he is the main draw. Ideally if he gets some muscle as bodyguards.

Finally, they need to do stables well again. WWE have made an absolute mess of the concept. They have fucked it up so badly that I don't think they can fix it. In pretty much any fans top 5 moments in wrestling, you will have; DX, NWO or the horsemen.  Plenty of other great stables over the years too. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[Bigdoggsteel]

Not sure about Jimmy Havok though. Personally death match stuff just isn't my thing. Pretty safe to say AEW will be PG or whatever the kid friendly term is, so he won't be doing the gorey stuff. His look just doesn't do it for me. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[Miller11]

Wow! Only just stumbled across this thread! Clearly should have ventured away from the footy forums before now! 

3 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Of their roster MJF looks like a great heel. 

I’ll go out on a limb and say he’s the best heel in the business at this current point in time. I saw him wrestle for PCW about 12 months ago and bumped into him in a takeaway after the show... I gave him some stick about having a fake Burberry scarf... he went into a full blown heel promo. Never broke character once, even when I bought him a pint in the pub later... I congratulated him on this and he asked me what the f*** I was talking... consummate heel, didn’t miss a beat!

[DE.]

5 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

AEW is definitely good for the business. They are building a nice roster. I think it's promising that, for example, when Moxley came out at the PPV, he destroyed Omega. That might suggest egos won't be running the show there. 

One of the big things about AEW is that they've said wins and losses will matter, and they are committed to clean finishes, especially on their PPV events. That's why they waited for Moxley to attack after the match, rather than during it. They could have had Moxley cost Omega the match as an out to keep Omega looking strong, but they had a clean finish and left the attack for afterwards. If they stick to that philosophy then they're already going a long way to righting the wrongs both WWE and WCW perpetrated with so many bullshit finishes that fans have come to expect it. Keeping egos in check might be difficult, but on the other hand when PAC (Neville from WWE) said he couldn't put over Omega (he was originally scheduled to beat Hangman Page at Double or Nothing then lose to Omega at the next PPV) due to being the Dragon Gate champion, AEW removed PAC from the PPV and scrapped the match. They could have again done the match and had some kind of BS finish like a DQ or countout, but they prioritised giving the fans proper finishes over nonsense, and I like that a lot. 

5 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I would actually like to see Jericho win it and have a run as an uber heel who thinks he is the main draw. Ideally if he gets some muscle as bodyguards.

I think it's highly likely Jericho will win the belt and be the first champion. It makes sense really - give the belt to the most recognisable star, who is still a fantastic heel and can work a great match (unlike Hogan in WCW, who was also a great heel but couldn't work a good match to save his life by 1996). Whoever beats Jericho for the belt, whether it be Page, Omega or somebody else, will be given a massive credibility boost when the time comes, particularly if it's clean. It's the perfect way to get the ball rolling and start out strong.

5 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Finally, they need to do stables well again. WWE have made an absolute mess of the concept. They have fucked it up so badly that I don't think they can fix it. In pretty much any fans top 5 moments in wrestling, you will have; DX, NWO or the horsemen.  Plenty of other great stables over the years too. 

The Shield is the only decent stable WWE has produced in the last decade. Their concept of a stable in recent times is just throwing a bunch of losers together (The Social Outcasts, The League of Nations, etc) and have them fed to the top babyface - generally Roman Reigns. NJPW meanwhile has a multitude of awesome stables who all have balance and a purpose. I'm thinking AEW will probably learn from that and do it a similar way. Both WCW and WWE went overboard with factions back in the day (both the nWo and the Corporation/Corporate Ministry became bloated beyond all logic) but there is a way to strike a decent balance and AEW needs to find that whilst still keeping their singles and tag team divisions strong and immune from BS finishes.

5 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Not sure about Jimmy Havok though. Personally death match stuff just isn't my thing. Pretty safe to say AEW will be PG or whatever the kid friendly term is, so he won't be doing the gorey stuff. His look just doesn't do it for me. 

Double or Nothing was TV-14 I believe, so it's possible the TV deal will follow suit and skewer a little older. With that said, WCW was technically PG throughout its entire run and it didn't stop them setting the world on fire between 1996-1998, so if AEW is PG and their PPVs are TV-14 then guys like Havoc could probably strike some kind of balance there. He doesn't do much for me either but I do appreciate having some variety. Beats the cookie cutter create-a-wrestler look of 99% of the WWE roster.

1 hour ago, Miller11 said:

I’ll go out on a limb and say he’s the best heel in the business at this current point in time. I saw him wrestle for PCW about 12 months ago and bumped into him in a takeaway after the show... I gave him some stick about having a fake Burberry scarf... he went into a full blown heel promo. Never broke character once, even when I bought him a pint in the pub later... I congratulated him on this and he asked me what the f*** I was talking... consummate heel, didn’t miss a beat!

MJF is like a much better version of EC3. He has a ridiculous amount of heel charisma and I imagine is going to be booked pretty high on the card. If Double or Nothing is anything to go by they are planning to make him a major player once TV starts in a few months. 

[Mike E]

I think they’re confirmed as TV-14, simply so they have the freedom to go ahead and make their product look more real.

I think they’ll let bits of swearing and violence occur in TV, but only when it makes an impact for the story (like Dustin, although that was a Guerrero-style botched bleed, surely? Great visual though and perfect for the story).

[Vinjay]

16 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I am around half-way through it. Interesting to listen to a big name WWE guy being so honest. It sounds like the biggest problem is Vince. WWE has amazing talent doing their best, but Smackdown and Raw are absolutely rubbish most of the time. I wouldn't even watch them now. I watch Wrestling with Wregret and that does for my updates. 

 

I don't think much of the current product either but the company is still successful. If that changes then Vince will change no doubt about that. The problem is does anyone really see WWE having much reason to change anytime soon? I don't agree with having so many people on the creative team either it's better to have 1 or 2 for consistency, etc. Plus get rid of a lot of deadwood or wrestlers not being used. In 98/99 Russo usually gave everyone a storyline and that's the way I would do it. 

Someone like Vince is needed at Ewood for issues like coaching people on what to say, etc and the overall mentality of the place. If Vince was here players would be referring to the club as Rovers and there wouldn't be statements about "learning from being back in the Championship" like Bennett's the other day. 

As for AEW thought the first show was fine. Especially the Cody/Dustin match. Not entirely convinced by the other 2 announcers (by that I mean the ones not called JR) but it was the first show and they might talk over each a bit at first. JR's supposed to be the play by play man though. I would have him paired with a heel as well it's not "passe" at all.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Vinjay17

[DE.]

WWE's ratings are tanking and their TV partners are all over them for it, so there's definitely a lot of reasons for them to change. Their attendance figures are also bombing and they've considered giving up on House Shows entirely. It's exactly why they panicked and introduced the "wildcard" rule to allow the big stars on both shows, whilst also introducing the 24/7 title (apparently an idea from USA Network). 

That said they're golden for the next five years thanks to their huge FOX and Saudi Arabia deals, but there's little question the product itself and fan engagement with it is at historically low levels. They're haemorrhaging viewers and live attendees year on year, but thanks to their TV deals will continue to make money in spite of it. If you measure success solely on whether they are making money then sure, they're successful, but by practically any other metric they are failing miserably.  

[Vinjay]

Yes I'm aware of that but primarily money is the main issue for Vince. Something threatens that and things will change. The problem is I'm not sure what will happen to threaten them financially anytime soon. I certainly don't want the company to go out of business but

The only other thing would be if AEW started beating them in the ratings. I'm not convinced that will happen but aside from money issues can't think of anything else that would change anything. The talent need to be more combative as well. 

The only thing that interests me in WWE at the moment is Undertaker v Goldberg. I'm not completely convinced the Undertaker will win either so there's some intrigue there. I think it's better than Undertaker v Sting (even if the latter could still wrestle) as Goldberg's more badass/intense. There's no way Sting would have won but Goldberg might especially if they have a rematch.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Vinjay17

[Bigdoggsteel]

Some good points by all. I think we got ourselves a wrestling thread. 

Might spend more time here than the transfer one ?

I think between the kids market and Saudi Arabia, wwe are coining it in,but if they lose the "adult" market to AEW it will eventually end up doing big damage to them. Maybe not in 5 or 10 years even, but it will. 

[Mike E]

I do think AEW will really threaten WWE’s U.K. market share come autumn.

Better quality wrestling on free TV, or paying for another subscription to watch the same thing you watched for the last 20 years?

[Miller11]

I can’t see any drastic changes to WWE offering until after February next year when the XFL relaunches. I think that will start to tank pretty quickly and then Vince will be forced to do some shaking up. By that point we will have some idea of how much of a factor AEW will be a few months into their programming.

Ideal scenario would be Vince taking a back seat and concentrating on the XFL... but I can’t see that happening. Even if he did Bruce Prichard and Kevin Dunn would likely just become proxy Vinces.

[DE.]

34 minutes ago, Vinjay17 said:

Yes I'm aware of that but primarily money is the main issue for Vince. Something threatens that and things will change. The problem is I'm not sure what will happen to threaten them financially anytime soon. I certainly don't want the company to go out of business but

The only other thing would be if AEW started beating them in the ratings. I'm not convinced that will happen but aside from money issues can't think of anything else that would change anything. The talent need to be more combative as well. 

The only thing that interests me in WWE at the moment is Undertaker v Goldberg. I'm not completely convinced the Undertaker will win either so there's some intrigue there. I think it's better than Undertaker v Sting (even if the latter could still wrestle) as Goldberg's more badass/intense. There's no way Sting would have won but Goldberg might especially if they have a rematch.

With the ridiculous deal WWE has with FOX (and the Saudis) ratings could practically drop to 0 and nobody attend the live shows and WWE would still make money. Obviously their product at that point would be unsustainable for other reasons, but cash flow is not something they will have to worry about for the foreseeable future, regardless of competition elsewhere. 

I'd be surprised if AEW can beat Raw or Smackdown in the ratings, but that shouldn't really be their aim. All they need to do is create a good wrestling company that makes money and pulls a respectable viewership. The rest will take care of itself. They need to ignore WWE for the most part and blaze their own trail. There's already huge interest in them, far more than the likes of TNA/Impact have or ever had, so momentum is on AEW's side. If they start off strong there's no reason they can't build something very big which may one day in the distant future be a genuine challenger to WWE. In the meantime if they can just hang in the same space as WWE whilst maintaining a healthy product financially then that's a serious achievement.

As for what interests me in WWE right now - the Firefly Fun House and old content from the WWE Network. That's pretty much it. Raw and Smackdown are just awful, boring shows and I can't even put them on as background TV anymore. 

I have no desire to see WWE disappear, but they need to realise they are on a dangerous path right now. 

23 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Some good points by all. I think we got ourselves a wrestling thread. 

Might spend more time here than the transfer one ?

I think between the kids market and Saudi Arabia, wwe are coining it in,but if they lose the "adult" market to AEW it will eventually end up doing big damage to them. Maybe not in 5 or 10 years even, but it will. 

WWE are good for the next 5 years, but if they're in bad shape by the time their FOX deal expires then it could all collapse very quickly irrespective of what happens with AEW. If ratings and live audience continue to decline as they have been we could be looking at sub 1.0 ratings for Raw in a few years time, and WWE being forced to move to smaller arenas due to dwindling crowd size. Basically a repeat of WCW when it was dying. FOX would then inevitably drop them and the offers from other networks would be way below what the company is traditionally used to. If AEW is still around by then and doing well then we could definitely see a genuine paradigm shift.

Just now, Mike E said:

I do think AEW will really threaten WWE’s U.K. market share come autumn.

Better quality wrestling on free TV, or paying for another subscription to watch the same thing you watched for the last 20 years?

Sky Sports have already dropped WWE due to lacklustre ratings, and they won't get as many viewers on BT. I imagine AEW will instantly be bigger than WWE in terms of pure viewership % in the UK as soon as they launch.  

[Mike E]

‘Paradigm shift’, you’ve been watching Jon Moxley this week haven’t you?

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

‘Paradigm shift’, you’ve been watching Jon Moxley this week haven’t you?

Moxley and AEW have been saying it for the last two weeks, I guess it's become embedded into my brain  good advertising I suppose!

[DE.]

Apparently Double or Nothing did 98,000 buys, which is damn impressive for a company that doesn't even have TV. From recollection All In did around 40-50k buys, so momentum is building fast.

[Bigdoggsteel]

It's amazing that Vince runs a billion dollar business with such an old school approach. Only leads me to thinking they could be making even more money. 

I think he has some issues alright, but, as moxley said, he will die in the hot seat. Big Moxley fan now! Shoot/heel/honest promos that don't come along too often. 

 

[DE.]

CM Punk said in his pipebomb promo that "Vince is a millionaire who should be a billionaire", and he was spot on. He is undoubtedly the greatest promoter in the history of the business, but he peaked nearly twenty years ago, and there was a period between 1991-1995 where things were tanking just as bad as they are today. 1995 WWE was absolutely terrible. WCW pushed Vince outside of his comfort zone and he thrived on that. I don't think he has the same mindset nowadays. He's been stuck in his comfort zone for close to two decades now, and WWE has been slowly going down the entire time. I don't think they're close to the bottom yet, and Vince isn't at his desperation point. Why he's authorising mentions AEW on live TV, however, I can't fathom.

[Mike E]

98k buys is an amazing first effort! Looking at up to £3.9m on the first go (although that assumes all American buys, which were £40 rather than our £15).

[Norbert Rassragr]

When I used to watch wrestling when I was about 11, you had all sorts of crazy characters like Papa Shango, Ultimate Warrior. British Bulldog and so on. Do they still have such wierdoes or are they all just big macho guys in pants and women with thighs of steel and big tits?

[Miller11]

I’ve just watched the pre show from double or nothing... if that Battle Royal is anything to go by, their TV show is going to be disastrous!

I’ve no doubt the rest of the show picked up significantly, but even for a battle Royal this was dire.

Firstly the good - MJF and Hangman Page. Two stars. One heel one baby face. Any positives in this match revolve around these two. Seeing Billy Gunn and Glacier was fun.

Now for the negatives... Joey Janella is a dick who wrestles “invisible men” and always seems intent on crippling himself. He lit a cigarette which got stapled to his head by Jimmy Havoc (thankfully the iffy camerawork and chaotic approach to the match meant the camera missed it). Some guy called Orange Cassidy kept his hands in his pockets and slowly and gently kicked Tommy Dreamer in the shins. It appears that’s his schtick. Nonsense like that appeals to a very small minority of fans who are vocal on twitter and in tiny venues where this very indie stuff is normally played out. It will turn potential new fans off quickly. Shit like that, and the gushing reactions of a few, always smacks of people being in on a big private joke.

The rest was just people sitting all around the ring, patiently waiting for their spot. Brian Pillman Jr was criminally underused. 

This should have been an attempt to grab a few last minute PPV buys... a casual/lapsed WWE fan would dismiss this instantly.

[Miller11]

4 hours ago, Norbert Rassragr said:

When I used to watch wrestling when I was about 11, you had all sorts of crazy characters like Papa Shango, Ultimate Warrior. British Bulldog and so on. Do they still have such wierdoes or are they all just big macho guys in pants and women with thighs of steel and big tits?

They have cut down on the crazy characters dramatically. And the tits as well.

[Norbert Rassragr]

That's a shame as it all adds to the 'theatre' of the event when the Undertaker (who I know is still going despite being 72) fights a guy who is all made up like a Turkish sultan or a lord of the rings style tree man. 

[DE.]

The cartoony gimmick era of the WWE nearly ended up killing it. It was only when they got away from that around the 96/97 period that the company caught fire and became huge again.

10 hours ago, Miller11 said:

I’ve just watched the pre show from double or nothing... if that Battle Royal is anything to go by, their TV show is going to be disastrous!

I’ve no doubt the rest of the show picked up significantly, but even for a battle Royal this was dire.

Firstly the good - MJF and Hangman Page. Two stars. One heel one baby face. Any positives in this match revolve around these two. Seeing Billy Gunn and Glacier was fun.

Now for the negatives... Joey Janella is a dick who wrestles “invisible men” and always seems intent on crippling himself. He lit a cigarette which got stapled to his head by Jimmy Havoc (thankfully the iffy camerawork and chaotic approach to the match meant the camera missed it). Some guy called Orange Cassidy kept his hands in his pockets and slowly and gently kicked Tommy Dreamer in the shins. It appears that’s his schtick. Nonsense like that appeals to a very small minority of fans who are vocal on twitter and in tiny venues where this very indie stuff is normally played out. It will turn potential new fans off quickly. Shit like that, and the gushing reactions of a few, always smacks of people being in on a big private joke.

The rest was just people sitting all around the ring, patiently waiting for their spot. Brian Pillman Jr was criminally underused. 

This should have been an attempt to grab a few last minute PPV buys... a casual/lapsed WWE fan would dismiss this instantly.

I didn't think the Battle Royal was that bad, but I agree that overall the pre-show did nothing to entice people unfamiliar with AEW to purchase Double or Nothing. Plus the commentary was really bad. It picked up when JR joined for the main show, but mainly only because Marvez had less to say. Excalibur is great but he needs a decent partner to bounce off, and Marvez isn't that person. 

Meltzer suggested that the attitude within AEW was that WWE die-hards wouldn't be interested in DoN anyway, so the pre-show wasn't really designed to pull fans who knew nothing about AEW in. With that said I'm not sure what the point of the pre-show was at all, other than to give a ton of wrestlers a payday from being on the event.  

[DE.]

I noticed ITV uploaded their "before the bell" documentary/promo for AEW, it's a great watch:

 

Obviously ideally better watched before Double or Nothing, but still a great introduction to AEW for anybody who doesn't really know much about it, or much about the guys behind it.