Wrestling Entertainment - we know, you don't have to tell us!

[Mike E]

21 hours ago, Miller11 said:

I’ve just watched the pre show from double or nothing... if that Battle Royal is anything to go by, their TV show is going to be disastrous!

I’ve no doubt the rest of the show picked up significantly, but even for a battle Royal this was dire.

Firstly the good - MJF and Hangman Page. Two stars. One heel one baby face. Any positives in this match revolve around these two. Seeing Billy Gunn and Glacier was fun.

Now for the negatives... Joey Janella is a dick who wrestles “invisible men” and always seems intent on crippling himself. He lit a cigarette which got stapled to his head by Jimmy Havoc (thankfully the iffy camerawork and chaotic approach to the match meant the camera missed it). Some guy called Orange Cassidy kept his hands in his pockets and slowly and gently kicked Tommy Dreamer in the shins. It appears that’s his schtick. Nonsense like that appeals to a very small minority of fans who are vocal on twitter and in tiny venues where this very indie stuff is normally played out. It will turn potential new fans off quickly. Shit like that, and the gushing reactions of a few, always smacks of people being in on a big private joke.

The rest was just people sitting all around the ring, patiently waiting for their spot. Brian Pillman Jr was criminally underused. 

This should have been an attempt to grab a few last minute PPV buys... a casual/lapsed WWE fan would dismiss this instantly.

I liked that it gave almost everyone in it a solid ‘highlight’ of some sort, but that also played into it’s downfall. A good way to introduce most of a brand new undercard for most though.

DoN itself was frenetic, and fast-paced, with sheer variety of match type.

To get a 5-star match out of Cody vs Dustin (Goldust) just shows you how badly WWE dropped the ball 3 years ago with those two.

Young Bucks vs Lucha Bros was a great tag match, Omega v Jericho was great. Moxley’s debut was perfect.

I think they will aim to be a show that offers ‘something’ for every wrestling taste, whereas WWE do that by splitting levels. Main roster offers one thing, NXT another, 205 another.

I reckon I can live happily with the cast of AEW and an hour of NXT.

[Bigdoggsteel]

On 03/06/2019 at 01:30, Miller11 said:

I’ve just watched the pre show from double or nothing... if that Battle Royal is anything to go by, their TV show is going to be disastrous!

I’ve no doubt the rest of the show picked up significantly, but even for a battle Royal this was dire.

Firstly the good - MJF and Hangman Page. Two stars. One heel one baby face. Any positives in this match revolve around these two. Seeing Billy Gunn and Glacier was fun.

Now for the negatives... Joey Janella is a dick who wrestles “invisible men” and always seems intent on crippling himself. He lit a cigarette which got stapled to his head by Jimmy Havoc (thankfully the iffy camerawork and chaotic approach to the match meant the camera missed it). Some guy called Orange Cassidy kept his hands in his pockets and slowly and gently kicked Tommy Dreamer in the shins. It appears that’s his schtick. Nonsense like that appeals to a very small minority of fans who are vocal on twitter and in tiny venues where this very indie stuff is normally played out. It will turn potential new fans off quickly. Shit like that, and the gushing reactions of a few, always smacks of people being in on a big private joke.

The rest was just people sitting all around the ring, patiently waiting for their spot. Brian Pillman Jr was criminally underused. 

This should have been an attempt to grab a few last minute PPV buys... a casual/lapsed WWE fan would dismiss this instantly.

I think Orange Cassidys stick is funny when you see it first, but I don't see any longevity in it. I hope not anyway 

[Bigdoggsteel]

I see online as well there is something of a backlash against Jim Cornette for comments he made about Sonny Kiss. Now I haven't seen Sonny Kiss before so don't know much about his? work, but that spot with Tommy Dreamer was not what I like in wrestling. Whatever about Orange Cassidys stick, the "butt bump" or whatever it's called looked ridiculous. Tommy Dreamer is excellent at self-promotion to stay relevant and fair play to him for that, he is a wrestling legend, but I can't believe he got involved in that nonsense. 

I mean there are gay wrestlers like Velveteen Dream and Parrow, who are tough and dish out beatings. Butt bumping is just silly and doesn't get the one doing it over as far as I am concerned. 

[Miller11]

3 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I see online as well there is something of a backlash against Jim Cornette for comments he made about Sonny Kiss. Now I haven't seen Sonny Kiss before so don't know much about his? work, but that spot with Tommy Dreamer was not what I like in wrestling. Whatever about Orange Cassidys stick, the "butt bump" or whatever it's called looked ridiculous. Tommy Dreamer is excellent at self-promotion to stay relevant and fair play to him for that, he is a wrestling legend, but I can't believe he got involved in that nonsense. 

I mean there are gay wrestlers like Velveteen Dream and Parrow, who are tough and dish out beatings. Butt bumping is just silly and doesn't get the one doing it over as far as I am concerned. 

I listened to Cornette’s review the other day. I’d put the backlash down to Joey Ryan trying to stir things up, furthering his ongoing feud with Cornette. To paraphrase, Cornette’s comments were along the lines of “then came a guy dressed like a drag queen called Sonny Kiss who I have never heard of” he also later used the term transvestite, which I’m sure some will take exception to. Cornette hates sillyness in wrestling regardless of race, gender, sexuality... Joey Ryan with multiple agendas for me.

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 minute ago, Miller11 said:

I listened to Cornette’s review the other day. I’d put the backlash down to Joey Ryan trying to stir things up, furthering his ongoing feud with Cornette. To paraphrase, Cornette’s comments were along the lines of “then came a guy dressed like a drag queen called Sonny Kiss who I have never heard of” he also later used the term transvestite, which I’m sure some will take exception to. Cornette hates sillyness in wrestling regardless of race, gender, sexuality... Joey Ryan with multiple agendas for me.

Ya, I didn't really try and find out what happened. I have in the past and the sum of the reasoning equated to around the same as this incident by the sounds of it. 

In fairness, drag queen and transvestite are pretty bang on descriptions...unless he doesn't enjoy dressing as a woman, in which case, he just shouldn't do it

Does Cornette do videos or is it just his podcast?  I never really found him that interesting, or maybe it's his accent. Something just doesn't do it for me 

Edited June 4, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[Miller11]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, I didn't really try and find out what happened. I have in the past and the sum of the reasoning equated to around the same as this incident by the sounds of it. 

In fairness, drag queen and transvestite are pretty bang on descriptions...unless he doesn't enjoy dressing as a woman, in which case, he just shouldn't do it

Does Cornette do videos or is it just his podcast?  I never really found him that interesting, or maybe it's his accent. Something just doesn't do it for me 

It was on his podcast. I listen to it pretty regularly, and I’m a big fan of his and lean more towards his old school philosophy - he disliked the battle Royal even more than I did!  And his rants on Trump, Russo... anyone who has annoyed him are gold! They usually break down the podcasts into YouTube videos. I highly recommend one called Cornette to Russo: Put up or shut up

Bruce Prichard’s podcast used to be awesome, but since he’s back in the WWE fold its a lot tamer.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Miller11 said:

It was on his podcast. I listen to it pretty regularly, and I’m a big fan of his and lean more towards his old school philosophy - he disliked the battle Royal even more than I did!  And his rants on Trump, Russo... anyone who has annoyed him are gold! They usually break down the podcasts into YouTube videos. I highly recommend one called Cornette to Russo: Put up or shut up

Bruce Prichard’s podcast used to be awesome, but since he’s back in the WWE fold its a lot tamer.

Can you see Cornette talking or is it just the audio? 

Have you watched Wrestling with Wregret? 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Ya, the battle Royal wasn't great when you look at the quality of other matches. I just wonder is it kind of a try out for guys to see who else will be offered contracts? I think a lot of them aren't signed to AEW

I actually like humour and silliness in wrestling, but some of the stuff that is being passed off now under this guise is just trying to create outrage to increase publicity. I don't like WWE at all now, I barely watch it, but I find R-truth funny. He lost the title to Jinder Mahal the other day on a golf course(before immediately winning it back). It was humorous, firstly why was Mahal in wrestling gear? Secondly the way Truth escaped was funny, clinging onto the back of the golf cart. The title has a stupid name and a stupid design, so WWE did manage to balls it up, but Truth is doing his best with it.

I went off on a bit of a tangent there   

[DE.]

As usual Cornette's comments were taken out of context so social media could revel in some good old 'outrage!'. It's pathetic how people can't even be bothered to check the source material before making judgements. It was exactly the same when Dave Meltzer was accused of body shaming Peyton Royce. It was obvious if you listened to the Observer show that he was talking about her breast enlargement changing her style somewhat, a valid enough observation. Granted he didn't word it in the best way but the context was obvious if you bothered to actually listen to the whole thing - but of course everybody picked up on one line, out of context, assumed he was talking about her weight and piled on because there's nothing like a public shaming to get people's blood pumping. It wasn't just fans either, it was wrestlers too. This behaviour has always been around but it's magnified through social media and is really irritating. 

I don't agree with everything Cornette says, but he isn't homophobic. It's nonsense to even suggest it.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, DE. said:

As usual Cornette's comments were taken out of context so social media could revel in some good old 'outrage!'. It's pathetic how people can't even be bothered to check the source material before making judgements. It was exactly the same when Dave Meltzer was accused of body shaming Peyton Royce. It was obvious if you listened to the Observer show that he was talking about her breast enlargement changing her style somewhat, a valid enough observation. Granted he didn't word it in the best way but the context was obvious if you bothered to actually listen to the whole thing - but of course everybody picked up on one line, out of context, assumed he was talking about her weight and piled on because there's nothing like a public shaming to get people's blood pumping. It wasn't just fans either, it was wrestlers too. This behaviour has always been around but it's magnified through social media and is really irritating. 

I don't agree with everything Cornette says, but he isn't homophobic. It's nonsense to even suggest it.

Annoys me too. It's up there and somewhat similar to numb nuts who jump straight to the comments section of an article and comment based off what the headline is. It happens all the time on basically every type of story. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Do you know what annoys me in wrestling? Crap finishers. AJ styles "styles clash" makes no sense and arguably ruins one of the best wrestlers of this generation.

Discuss 

[Mike E]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Do you know what annoys me in wrestling? Crap finishers. AJ styles "styles clash" makes no sense and arguably ruins one of the best wrestlers of this generation.

Discuss 

Not only is it a weak-looking finish, it’s bloody dangerous when it goes wrong! I don’t think it’s actually killed anyone who forgot to tuck their chin yet, but it’s broken many necks!

[Miller11]

32 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Can you see Cornette talking or is it just the audio? 

Have you watched Wrestling with Wregret? 

Most are just audio. Prichard did a series on the Network though which are basically rehashed versions of his old podcasts but filmed. Surprising how candidly he spoke considering the platform... his impressions of various people are always good value.

Yeah, I’m a big fan of Wrestling with Wregret. There is a lot of bad wrestling related content on YouTube these days, but Brian Zane is always a highlight.

I think comedy is definitely an essential part of wrestling. Bobby Heenan on commentary, The Rock in general, Kurt Angle, Edge and Christian, Regal, Kevin Nash doing paparazzi productions on TNA, Jay Lethal V Ric Flair, DX and nWo skits, Booker T and Goldust, Jericho’s list and the 1004 holds... all these are among the best things I’ve seen in wrestling. It’s the invisible handgrenades, invisible man, hands in pockets soft kicks, tampons in the mouth and dick flips that I can’t be doing with. I don’t find them either funny or entertaining. Quite the opposite. I think they are damaging. On a slightly related note, Janela is being praised for a hard hitting and brutal match in an arena, a takeaway and on the streets of Coventry over the weekend... against a 15 year old girl. Don’t know where to start with the issues I have with that.

[Miller11]

Just now, Mike E said:

Not only is it a weak-looking finish, it’s bloody dangerous when it goes wrong! I don’t think it’s actually killed anyone who forgot to tuck their chin yet, but it’s broken many necks!

You aren’t wrong there. Lionheart - Scottish wrestler, really good hand, seasoned pro broke his neck v styles in Preston a few years back. Just tucked his head instinctively.

[Miller11]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Do you know what annoys me in wrestling? Crap finishers. AJ styles "styles clash" makes no sense and arguably ruins one of the best wrestlers of this generation.

Discuss 

Agreed. I’d add Miz’s Skull crushing finale to that list very near the top.

Two of my favourite ever finishers - Jake Roberts DDT, and Rick Rude’s Rude Awakening. Executed perfectly and with decent psychology behind them, and the physics of them make sense.

Sadly these days finishers (perhaps aside from the RKO) aren’t protected... on any given Raw people kick out of them. Not to mention most matches now contain at least 3 spots that would have resulted in an injury angle even as recently as the attitude era. To quote Cornette “nowadays the most deadly move is a school boy roll up”.

[DE.]

There are some rubbish finishers out there. The Styles Clash is OK as a set up move but not so much as a finisher, I also think it's a little too dangerous. 

Rey Mysterio's 619 always used to bug me as a crap finisher. Also Roman Reign's Superman Punch is spammed to the point of dilution, and the spear is such an uninspired and boring finisher. Rhyno made it work with the gore, which often looked brutal, but few other wrestlers make it look particularly devastating. Even Edge never really pulled it off in a convincing way.

Most great finishers are the ones that - logically - target the head. Not punches as there are tons of punches in an average match, but finishers like the stunner, the tombstone piledriver, the curb stomp, various implementations of DDT's, etc. That said, one of the weakest finishers ever was Hogan's leg drop and that didn't seem to make much of a dent in his career (although it ruined his back) so I guess it's all about perception in the end. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

I know but when hogan used the leg drop, times were different. 

I think finishers must be protected. This stuff of kicking out of 5,6,7 F-fives is stupid. I mean where does it end? I think Reigns kicked out of 5, so when they want to get the next Reigns over, what will happen? Will they have him kick out of 10?

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

31 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Most are just audio. Prichard did a series on the Network though which are basically rehashed versions of his old podcasts but filmed. Surprising how candidly he spoke considering the platform... his impressions of various people are always good value.

Yeah, I’m a big fan of Wrestling with Wregret. There is a lot of bad wrestling related content on YouTube these days, but Brian Zane is always a highlight.

I think comedy is definitely an essential part of wrestling. Bobby Heenan on commentary, The Rock in general, Kurt Angle, Edge and Christian, Regal, Kevin Nash doing paparazzi productions on TNA, Jay Lethal V Ric Flair, DX and nWo skits, Booker T and Goldust, Jericho’s list and the 1004 holds... all these are among the best things I’ve seen in wrestling. It’s the invisible handgrenades, invisible man, hands in pockets soft kicks, tampons in the mouth and dick flips that I can’t be doing with. I don’t find them either funny or entertaining. Quite the opposite. I think they are damaging. On a slightly related note, Janela is being praised for a hard hitting and brutal match in an arena, a takeaway and on the streets of Coventry over the weekend... against a 15 year old girl. Don’t know where to start with the issues I have with that.

Intergender doesn't do it for me either. A spot now and again, fine, but full blown matches? No. It's just another side effect of PC culture. 

I like watching women's wrestling. I like men's wrestling. It feels now if you say you don't like Intergender you are being anti women. I now it's fake, but do I have to suspend belief to the point where 5 foot tall women are beating 6 foot 5 men 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Final wrestling peeves I can think of today and it's a pure WWE issue. 50/50 booking, champions losing non title matches CONSTANTLY and no respect being shown to tag teams. 

Look at the revival and Bayley and Sasha banks, ideal teams to hold the belts for a long time after eventually winning them. What happens? They repeatedly lose non title matches before dropping the belts after about 2 months. It just really shows that the creative process there is shite. 

[DE.]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I know but when hogan used the leg drop, times were different. 

I think finishers must be protected. This stuff of kicking out of 5,6,7 F-fives is stupid. I mean where does it end? I think Reigns kicked out of 5, so when they want to get the next Reigns over, what will happen? Will they have him kick out of 10?

When Hogan first started out, sure, but by the mid-90's his leg drop finisher already looked really lame - even more so by the 2000s when he was somehow still going. Obviously by the end he could no longer do the leg drop, I think he just used the big boot which was an equally underwhelming ending to a match.

Kicking out of finishers should be a very rare occurrence, and definitely shouldn't happen more than once. It used to be a 'holy shit' moment when a finisher was kicked out of, but nowadays it's just expected that a finisher isn't necessarily going to end the match, save for a few that have been protected like the RKO and the Curb Stomp. Roman kicking out of all those F5's against Brock turned that WM match into a parody. The crowd were just laughing and chanting bullshit. You can only go so far with this stuff before you stop suspending your disbelief and roll your eyes at the absurdity of the booking. It's just how WWE is though, they just can't restrain themselves and run everything into the ground. Their booking in the past few years has also so often been a middle finger to the fans. "You don't like how strong we book Roman? Fine, he'll lose, but WE'LL MAKE HIM LOOK EVEN STRONGER IN DEFEAT!". Yeah, cool. Ruin your WM main event just to stick it to your own fans. When you think about it, it's total lunacy, but that's what happens when you combine an egomaniac like Vince McMahon with a monopoly on the business. That's why the success of AEW is so important. Vince needs to learn to respect the fans again, and the only way he'll do that is if there's competition that actually gives those fans a genuine, accessible alternative.

[DE.]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Final wrestling peeves I can think of today and it's a pure WWE issue. 50/50 booking, champions losing non title matches CONSTANTLY and no respect being shown to tag teams. 

Look at the revival and Bayley and Sasha banks, ideal teams to hold the belts for a long time after eventually winning them. What happens? They repeatedly lose non title matches before dropping the belts after about 2 months. It just really shows that the creative process there is shite. 

50/50 booking and champions constantly losing non-title matches are two of the absolute worst parts of WWE booking, and it's been going on for years, to the point where nobody gives a shit about any of the secondary titles nowadays. 

If I can add one more pet peeve - the stale and constantly repeated formula of two wrestlers having a promo, some kind of confrontation happening where the heels gain an advantage, then the odds get evened up and out of the break... IT'S A TAG TEAM MATCH PLAYA. They've gone to this well so many times in the past couple of years alone that it might as well be mandatory for Raw to start that way now. Even this week you had Roman/Drew, followed by the Revival & Usos coming out and yeah, you guessed it, back from the break and it's a six man tag. So, so boring.

[Mike E]

Hogan’s finisher made no sense to me. Arms like pythons, surely a choke hold would’ve suited him better, or an elbow drop?

The best finisher ever is the Stone Cold Stunner. Easily. The guy kick provides the cue for fan and wrestler, easy to pull off (sit down) and easy to sell (fall back) without actually hurting anyone.

My favourite ‘stunnee’ was Scott Hall in the brief, awful WWE NWO run. Rock oversold it far too much.

Modern finishers, I struggle with. I like Moxley’s (so glad to call him that again) Dirty Deeds, as it harks back to Jake The Snake’s DDT rather than just being your usual WWE watered down one.

[Bigdoggsteel]

14 hours ago, DE. said:

When Hogan first started out, sure, but by the mid-90's his leg drop finisher already looked really lame - even more so by the 2000s when he was somehow still going. Obviously by the end he could no longer do the leg drop, I think he just used the big boot which was an equally underwhelming ending to a match.

Kicking out of finishers should be a very rare occurrence, and definitely shouldn't happen more than once. It used to be a 'holy shit' moment when a finisher was kicked out of, but nowadays it's just expected that a finisher isn't necessarily going to end the match, save for a few that have been protected like the RKO and the Curb Stomp. Roman kicking out of all those F5's against Brock turned that WM match into a parody. The crowd were just laughing and chanting bullshit. You can only go so far with this stuff before you stop suspending your disbelief and roll your eyes at the absurdity of the booking. It's just how WWE is though, they just can't restrain themselves and run everything into the ground. Their booking in the past few years has also so often been a middle finger to the fans. "You don't like how strong we book Roman? Fine, he'll lose, but WE'LL MAKE HIM LOOK EVEN STRONGER IN DEFEAT!". Yeah, cool. Ruin your WM main event just to stick it to your own fans. When you think about it, it's total lunacy, but that's what happens when you combine an egomaniac like Vince McMahon with a monopoly on the business. That's why the success of AEW is so important. Vince needs to learn to respect the fans again, and the only way he'll do that is if there's competition that actually gives those fans a genuine, accessible alternative.

Prime example of this 2 weeks ago. Brock comes out pretending that the MITB briefcase is a boom box. The next week the briefcase is an actual boom box. So stupid. Looked back to normal this week going off a picture I saw on Twitter, so they either changed it because of fans saying it was stupid, in which case(pardon the pun) should they not have known this would be the reaction? There are many examples of this,  a character organically does something and then the WWE ruin it by absolutely hammering it to death. Moxley mentioned in his interview that VKM is obsessed with props. You could see his fingerprints all over the stupid beatbox briefcase. I actually liked the idea for MITB, but now it has been made into a shit show as well. 

[Mike E]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Prime example of this 2 weeks ago. Brock comes out pretending that the MITB briefcase is a boom box. The next week the briefcase is an actual boom box. So stupid. Looked back to normal this week going off a picture I saw on Twitter, so they either changed it because of fans saying it was stupid, in which case(pardon the pun) should they not have known this would be the reaction? There are many examples of this,  a character organically does something and then the WWE ruin it by absolutely hammering it to death. Moxley mentioned in his interview that VKM is obsessed with props. You could see his fingerprints all over the stupid beatbox briefcase. I actually liked the idea for MITB, but now it has been made into a shit show as well. 

But it’s such GOOD SHIT!

[DE.]

To be honest I was expecting Firefly Funhouse to have taken a turn for the worse by now, but by the sounds of it the entire concept and production has been left to Bray and some people he's working with. No VKM fingerprints and it shows, as it's the best thing on Raw every week without fail. Nothing on that segment is run into the ground, every week it's something new and fresh. Other than "YOWIE WOWIE", which is pretty funny, nothing is rehashed or repeated. It's going to suck when Bray returns to Raw and finds himself neutered and ruined again by Vince and the creative team. 

I can't believe they teased Brock cashing in his MITB briefcase for THREE WEEKS and failed to deliver in all of them. Another example of running something into the ground with bad results. That shit should have been done and dusted by the second week, cash in or not.

Oh, and I've just thought of another peeve. Shane McMahon as a wrestler. Just stop already. He's an entertaining promo and I wouldn't be against him competing in one-off matches where he gets A LOT of help from outside to try and compete, but trying to make him out to be on the same level as normal wrestlers over recent years has just been pathetic. The WM match with the Undertaker was the worst example of this, but in every match his punches look ridiculous, his wrestling skills are adequate at best and he's blown up and turning purple after a couple of minutes. I can't take any match with Shane in seriously.