Wrestling Entertainment - we know, you don't have to tell us!

[DE.]

1 minute ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

What has happened NXT? I don't watch any shows in their entirety. Just highlights really. 

In Impact, I think Moose has potential to be a star. Eric Young is good and that new bodyguard he had is a scary looking individual. Their team would actually fit in well in NXT. 

Do you watch Cultaholic on YouTube? Watched a good one last night. One of the lads applied to be a writer for WWE. Maybe I enjoyed it too much cos I'm a HR/Recruitment nerd 🤣 It was interesting to see the process 

Vince happened to NXT. They moved to TV and suddenly he became interested in it. Unfortunately whilst back in the late 90s and early 00s he had the midas touch, now he has the opposite - everything he touches turns to shit. I think the other thing hurting NXT is that it has stopped feeling fresh. The regular call ups to the main roster have stopped, meaning the likes of Gargano, Ciampa, Undisputed Era, etc have been down there for a lot longer than usual. 

The main positive for AEW as far as being linked to Impact is definitely potential talent exchange. Impact could hugely help AEW with their women's division especially.

I don't watch Cultaholic regularly but I have seen a few of their videos - not that one though! Wrestling with Wregret is really the only wrestling channel on YouTube I watch consistently. The only other third party media I consume is the Observer, just because I find Dave & Bryan's dynamic unintentionally hilarious.  

 

[Mike E]

14 minutes ago, DE. said:

Vince happened to NXT. They moved to TV and suddenly he became interested in it. Unfortunately whilst back in the late 90s and early 00s he had the midas touch, now he has the opposite - everything he touches turns to shit. I think the other thing hurting NXT is that it has stopped feeling fresh. The regular call ups to the main roster have stopped, meaning the likes of Gargano, Ciampa, Undisputed Era, etc have been down there for a lot longer than usual. 

The main positive for AEW as far as being linked to Impact is definitely potential talent exchange. Impact could hugely help AEW with their women's division especially.

I don't watch Cultaholic regularly but I have seen a few of their videos - not that one though! Wrestling with Wregret is really the only wrestling channel on YouTube I watch consistently. The only other third party media I consume is the Observer, just because I find Dave & Bryan's dynamic unintentionally hilarious.  

 

I watch Whatculture and WWW. Can't get to grips with Cultaholic, I don't know why though.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Started watching this guy MarkyD. He reviews old TNA. Some of its pretty funny.

I'm done with top 10 lists. 

Still watch www weekly. Not the reviews, just his weekly long forms. 

[DE.]

As an aside I've been watching old Raw episodes recently, specifically between Royal Rumble 98 and Wrestlemania 14. For all the talk of WWE being on fire at the time... the shows really aren't that good and I wouldn't say they are really any better than what WCW was putting out at the time.

There are a ton of really poor storylines and matches going on during this period.

The Bad

There's a huge focus on Sable, who is a total charisma vacuum. She's completely over (I wonder why) but her segments are snoozers.

The NWA faction - god I forgot about this. What a dumpster fire of an angle.

Related to the above - Jeff Jarrett. Makes me want to fast forward every time he's on the screen.

The Headbangers being involved in anything is just lame. These guys suck.

Steve Blackman - yawn.

Goldust in this weird phase where he's "the artist formerly known as Goldust" - fat, out of shape and just weird in a bad way. Teamed with Luna who does the best she can with Sable and Marc Mero, but... yeah.

Michael Cole and Kevin Kelly - what a couple of nerds.

Stone Cold threatening JR, and JR siding with Vince during this period is just weird and largely forgotten in historical retrospectives of Stone Cold's journey.  

Kane and Undertaker's spooky lightning powers and promos during this period are just so hokey. Laughably so. 

For some reason they keep having Sunny come out to announce Taka Michinoku's matches, normally against Brian Christopher. She seems high on something every time she comes out, and is an awful ring announcer. I don't have to say anything else about a Taka Michinoku/Brian Christopher feud, do I? 

Racism - quite a lot of it here, and it's kind of blatant. Some towards Taka, but at one point when D'Lo comes to the ring Ken Shamrock calls him a 'monkey' twice. Jeez.

The Disciples of Apocalypse are on the show a lot and they really, really suck. Ditto The Truth Commission (funny seeing Don Callis as the Jackyl, though). 

The Good

Stone Cold in general is entertaining.

The DX/Tyson dynamic is great. 

Cactus Jack/Chainsaw Charlie vs the New Age Outlaws (pre-DX) feud is fun.

The Nation of Domination itself sucks, but the Rock's slow detachment from the group is really well done. Also Rock is awesome, even at this point.

The Legion of Doom breakup storyline is quite well done. 

The Vader/Kane storyline is good. Vader is really over for pretty much his entire WWE run, but for whatever reason they never really wanted to do anything with him. I guess because he built himself in WCW. It's a shame. 

So yeah, there is some good stuff in these episodes for sure... but holy crap there is a lot of terrible stuff as well. 

Also for all the retrospective talk of WCW being the place for 'older' wrestlers, WWE has plenty of them around this time period, many pretty recently in WCW:

Ricky Morton (ex-WCW)
Robert Gibson (ex-WCW)
Barry Windham (ex-WCW)
Terry Funk
Vader (ex-WCW)
Legion of Doom (ex-WCW)
Cornette
Lawler
The Quebecers (ex-WCW)

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by DE.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Watched Omega on TNA. What a goofball. Comparing winning the title to collecting a superman comic book. I can't take him seriously at all. If he's going for comedy, it's working. If not, well I don't know what to say lol. I think he's vastly over rated anyway, that's for sure. 

Moose v Omega would be a good match if there will be that type of crossover. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[Blue blood]

On 09/12/2020 at 12:43, DE. said:

Vince happened to NXT. They moved to TV and suddenly he became interested in it. Unfortunately whilst back in the late 90s and early 00s he had the midas touch, now he has the opposite - everything he touches turns to shit. I think the other thing hurting NXT is that it has stopped feeling fresh. The regular call ups to the main roster have stopped, meaning the likes of Gargano, Ciampa, Undisputed Era, etc have been down there for a lot longer than usual. 

It's not that NXT is bad (imo) it's just not great like it was. There's still a ton of talent and some interesting storylines. Personally I like Gargano as a heel, the women's division is so stacked with any number of women who could be pushed as the main woman, and they still have a ton of good matches. 

NXT had been hurt by 2 circumstances which have been beyond their control. 1) The pandemic and losing a crowd which has reduced the atmosphere and reaction and generally lowered the quality of matches and angles all round. 2) Two charismatic champions, one who is very talented, have been injured taking the NXT title out of the picture. Neither are their fault and both have massively weakened the product. 

That said they are making basic errors which NXT was known not to have. Wrestlers turning too quickly making no sense whatsoever. Priest for example turned face a month after attacking Balor with no reason for the change. Champa has turned a couple of times very quickly in the past few months. All of which is terrible storytelling. 

Going along with this is wrestling amnesia. Angles, actions as heels, there's a ton of stuff which is forgotten quickly. Fans however do remember and when the past doesn't matter it's hard to care. 

The speed of which things happen is also far too quick. Not just turns but storylines in general. There's no slow build any more. Watching 2014-15 NXT the matches are nowhere near as good (bar main events and take overs) but the product hooked you in with good storytelling.

Speaking of storytelling some of the storylines are childish. We had a wargames match for the women which whilst very good, was over a crushed miniature tank. Or take an example from a couple of Takeovers ago Balor Vs Thatcher. Balor was angry Thatcher interfered in a North American qualifying match. Decent storyline until you consider 3 other people interfered in the match devaluing Thatcher's involvement. It's basic stuff NXT avoided which made it a better product. 

It's not irredeemable and it's worth remembering that February's Takeover was great and such good quality. It's also worth remembering the many quality matches they still serve up.  But the trajectory needs to change or it will eventually become mediocre and no different from the rest and it'll be panning for gold in the mud. 

[DE.]

To be honest I stopped watching NXT fairly soon after it moved to TV. It was clear that Vince was getting involved and infecting it with the modern WWE virus, and at that point it was game over for me. If it wasn't for AEW I probably wouldn't be watching any wrestling at all right now. 

[Blue blood]

On 16/12/2020 at 08:59, DE. said:

To be honest I stopped watching NXT fairly soon after it moved to TV. It was clear that Vince was getting involved and infecting it with the modern WWE virus, and at that point it was game over for me. If it wasn't for AEW I probably wouldn't be watching any wrestling at all right now. 

You (or someone) mentioned AEW is like mid 90s WCW - will have to give that a try if that's the case as prior to Hogan I really loved that period. 

I feel the infection is a bit of a slow creep. I didn't really notice any major problems until after the pandemic began. The February Takeover for example was still excellent and I thought the 1.5 hours per week was working well. 

Since then it's taken some real hits in amongst showing what it was and can be in terms of quality. 

[DE.]

On 19/12/2020 at 10:15, Blue blood said:

You (or someone) mentioned AEW is like mid 90s WCW - will have to give that a try if that's the case as prior to Hogan I really loved that period. 

For me it's got a very mid-90s WCW feel. Some technical stuff, some goofy stuff, some traditional stuff, a solid mixture of younger and veteran talent and obviously the fact it's on TNT and Tony Schiavone is commentating! Having the likes of Arn Anderson, Sting, Tully Blanchard, Dustin Rhodes, etc on the show obviously adds to that perception as well.

With that said it's definitely not a WCW clone. Plenty of modern wrestling too which nods to the likes of ROH, PWG and NJPW - but the main thing for me is that it isn't trying to be WWE in any way, shape or form. As fun as TNA was at times, it was always trying to be a combination of WCW and WWE-lite. AEW still feels like its own company, WCW vibe or not. 

You can just tell everyone in AEW is having fun. They aren't bound by catchphrases, sponsors, slogans, a specific style, banned words, and so on. Everything I've come to hate about modern WWE is nowhere to be seen in AEW, and that's a huge relief. Meanwhile, for the stuff WWE does well that I enjoy watching - I can still catch the highlights. 

[Miller11]

On 13/12/2020 at 09:20, Bigdoggsteel said:

Watched Omega on TNA. What a goofball. Comparing winning the title to collecting a superman comic book. I can't take him seriously at all. If he's going for comedy, it's working. If not, well I don't know what to say lol. I think he's vastly over rated anyway, that's for sure. 

Moose v Omega would be a good match if there will be that type of crossover. 

Just catching up on this thread for the first time in ages.

I hate Omega. I find him absolutely insufferable and fundamentally bad in the ring while he self indulgently moves from spot to spot.

[Mike E]

14 minutes ago, DE. said:

For me it's got a very mid-90s WCW feel. Some technical stuff, some goofy stuff, some traditional stuff, a solid mixture of younger and veteran talent and obviously the fact it's on TNT and Tony Schiavone is commentating! Having the likes of Arn Anderson, Sting, Tully Blanchard, Dustin Rhodes, etc on the show obviously adds to that perception as well.

With that said it's definitely not a WCW clone. Plenty of modern wrestling too which nods to the likes of ROH, PWG and NJPW - but the main thing for me is that it isn't trying to be WWE in any way, shape or form. As fun as TNA was at times, it was always trying to be a combination of WCW and WWE-lite. AEW still feels like its own company, WCW vibe or not. 

You can just tell everyone in AEW is having fun. They aren't bound by catchphrases, sponsors, slogans, a specific style, banned words, and so on. Everything I've come to hate about modern WWE is nowhere to be seen in AEW, and that's a huge relief. Meanwhile, for the stuff WWE does well that I enjoy watching - I can still catch the highlights. 

Word for word my thoughts on AEW. And the beauty of it having multiple stories woven into one narrative means the flexibility is there to shoot off in any direction.

With WWE, the storylines are so rigidly between one or two wrestlers that one botch, or spoken error, or McMahon hissyfit throws an entire story off kilter into stop-start booking.

With AEW, one botch, one spoken error, the main story keeps trundling on while the mistake gets fixed within a week or two.

[DE.]

1 minute ago, Mike E said:

Word for word my thoughts on AEW. And the beauty of it having multiple stories woven into one narrative means the flexibility is there to shoot off in any direction.

With WWE, the storylines are so rigidly between one or two wrestlers that one botch, or spoken error, or McMahon hissyfit throws an entire story off kilter into stop-start booking.

With AEW, one botch, one spoken error, the main story keeps trundling on while the mistake gets fixed within a week or two.

100% yes. The long-term storytelling of AEW is such a welcome relief after years of abysmal WWE storylines which are lucky to last more than a few weeks.

Everything that happens in AEW has a purpose, and ties in to feuds happening between various people months down the line. Things aren't just forgotten about or abruptly dropped as often happens with WWE's chaotic style of booking. When AEW commits to something they make sure there is a pay off. 

What's also great is that they actually listen to their fans. If there is widespread dissatisfaction with a storyline or a group then they absorb that feedback and tweak things to improve the product. Good examples are the Dark Order, who started off as weak but became a solid part of the show, and Brandi's Nightmare Collective bullshit which was hugely criticised and subsequently pulled when it clearly wasn't getting over or appreciated. If AEW can salvage something they will, but unlike WWE they won't beat a dead horse if it is simply not ever going to work (-cough- retribution -cough-).

[Miller11]

My view of AEW is a lot less positive. Recent weeks it’s been hotshotting to try and hit that million viewers, but many of the long-standing issues remain.

Tony Khan makes Eric Bischoff look like a cross between Scrooge and Bill Watts. The EVP’s are on ego trips. Jericho and Hardy are even worse. The booking is illogical and so many of the wrestlers are sloppy and celebrate the fact they are untrained.

The whole reaction to JR’s very valid comments recently sums the whole thing up. Boys club mentality.

This is by no means an endorsement of the current WWE product. That’s unwatchable for different reasons.

[Mike E]

3 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

My view of AEW is a lot less positive. Recent weeks it’s been hotshotting to try and hit that million viewers, but many of the long-standing issues remain.

Tony Khan makes Eric Bischoff look like a cross between Scrooge and Bill Watts. The EVP’s are on ego trips. Jericho and Hardy are even worse. The booking is illogical and so many of the wrestlers are sloppy and celebrate the fact they are untrained.

The whole reaction to JR’s very valid comments recently sums the whole thing up. Boys club mentality.

This is by no means an endorsement of the current WWE product. That’s unwatchable for different reasons.

Wrestling is definitely subjective, because I don't recognise the company you're describing.

With that being said, I also agreed with JR's comments to an extent. All it takes for a transition move to become a finisher is perceptive booking of that move.

One of the things that baffles me about WWE's midcard is that WWE haven't utilised nobody kicking out of 'End of Days' to Baron Corbin's benefit. It could push him to an IC title reign with ease (and I don't even like him).

[DE.]

It's worth remembering that AEW makes more money from TV than PPV. The idea of hot-shotting on TV, as per the Monday Night Wars era, is a bit outdated. They only have PPVs every 3 months (another huge improvement on WWE's once a month formula), so there's plenty of time between PPVs to have big matches. 

I do agree that some of the booking is wonky, but no promotion gets it right all of the time. The EVPs being on a power trip comment I don't understand as Omega and the Bucks especially spent most of the first year putting over multiple talents, and only started putting themselves over when a significant amount of fans complained that they weren't presenting themselves seriously enough as 'The Elite'. Cody has been booked strong, sure, but that makes sense considering his position. He's one of the best wrestlers and promos in the company. 

Also I believe AEW is on course to make profit, so they definitely aren't overspending. TNT is extremely happy with their performance (massively over expectations of a 500k average audience) and are paying them enough to cover expenses. I think any suggestion that Khan is being wasteful with money is quite wide of the mark. 

As for JR's comments - a person in his position shouldn't be burying AEW wrestlers in public. His comments are something that should be discussed in private. I can completely understand people in AEW being upset with him making those remarks in public, even if they were valid.

 

[Miller11]

9 minutes ago, DE. said:

It's worth remembering that AEW makes more money from TV than PPV. The idea of hot-shotting on TV, as per the Monday Night Wars era, is a bit outdated. They only have PPVs every 3 months (another huge improvement on WWE's once a month formula), so there's plenty of time between PPVs to have big matches. 

I do agree that some of the booking is wonky, but no promotion gets it right all of the time. The EVPs being on a power trip comment I don't understand as Omega and the Bucks especially spent most of the first year putting over multiple talents, and only started putting themselves over when a significant amount of fans complained that they weren't presenting themselves seriously enough as 'The Elite'. Cody has been booked strong, sure, but that makes sense considering his position. He's one of the best wrestlers and promos in the company. 

Also I believe AEW is on course to make profit, so they definitely aren't overspending. TNT is extremely happy with their performance (massively over expectations of a 500k average audience) and are paying them enough to cover expenses. I think any suggestion that Khan is being wasteful with money is quite wide of the mark. 

As for JR's comments - a person in his position shouldn't be burying AEW wrestlers in public. His comments are something that should be discussed in private. I can completely understand people in AEW being upset with him making those remarks in public, even if they were valid.

 

Khan and Jericho (and Meltzer and Alvarez) have made no secret of their desire to hit a million rating. Throwing Sting and Shaq at it was pure hotshotting for me. 
 

While Omega and the Bucks May have not won all their matches, I don’t think they have put anyone else over in the slightest. They were always at the very least well protected, and even if they didn’t GO over, they made sure it was them who GOT over. I haven’t given it a lot of thought, but I can’t think off the top of my head of anyone who has been elevated working with them. The way FTR were used, for example has been a massive missed opportunity. 
 

Cody is a different kettle of fish... however, the positioning of his wife is ridiculous. Jericho, though not an EVP is the worst of all.
 

Signing the likes of Luther, Cutler, Nakazawa, Reby Hardy and others, for no other reason than for them being friends/significant others of their big stars is a complete waste of money. None of them is even near Beefcake’s level. Christ knows what he’s paying Sting and Shaq. They’ve also expanded their roster a lot in the last 6 months or so... some good additions, some piss poor.

On the flip side of that, they are burying JR every time they do something stupid (which is alarmingly frequent) and expect him to call it. Taz ripped into the Gunn boys on Dark for something stupid and contrived... I think JR does very well not to do similar. Expecting him to call an Orange Cassidy match? I don’t see how that happens without someone getting buried.

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Miller11 said:

Khan and Jericho (and Meltzer and Alvarez) have made no secret of their desire to hit a million rating. Throwing Sting and Shaq at it was pure hotshotting for me. 
 

While Omega and the Bucks May have not won all their matches, I don’t think they have put anyone else over in the slightest. They were always at the very least well protected, and even if they didn’t GO over, they made sure it was them who GOT over. I haven’t given it a lot of thought, but I can’t think off the top of my head of anyone who has been elevated working with them. The way FTR were used, for example has been a massive missed opportunity. 
 

Cody is a different kettle of fish... however, the positioning of his wife is ridiculous. Jericho, though not an EVP is the worst of all.
 

Signing the likes of Luther, Cutler, Nakazawa, Reby Hardy and others, for no other reason than for them being friends/significant others of their big stars is a complete waste of money. None of them is even near Beefcake’s level. Christ knows what he’s paying Sting and Shaq. They’ve also expanded their roster a lot in the last 6 months or so... some good additions, some piss poor.

On the flip side of that, they are burying JR every time they do something stupid (which is alarmingly frequent) and expect him to call it. Taz ripped into the Gunn boys on Dark for something stupid and contrived... I think JR does very well not to do similar. Expecting him to call an Orange Cassidy match? I don’t see how that happens without someone getting buried.

Of course they want to hit a million viewers. Even more if possible. A significant amount of their revenue is based around advertising money from the TV shows - AEW gets a cut of that alongside TNT. Why wouldn't they be aiming to get that rating as high as possible? They'll make far more money off TV than they ever will off PPV. They're trying to grow their audience beyond the standard 1.5m that watch AEW & NXT on Wednesdays - the likes of Sting and Shaq are clearly attempts to get eyes on their product that may not usually watch. Combining that with the strong Winter is Coming card made perfect sense. I don't see the problem there at all.

The Bucks put over Private Party pretty early on in their run, and also helped establish the likes of Ortiz/Santana and the Lucha Bros. They helped establish Omega/Hangman as a legitimate tag team too, and made the Inner Circle look strong during their feuds with them. 

Omega elevated Mox straight away by losing to him, and did the same for Jericho. You could argue neither of those necessarily needed to be put over but having one of the biggest names in the company lay down for them certainly didn't hurt. Putting over PAC at All Out was a solid move too, and his storyline with Hangman Page was one of the most intriguing AEW storylines of 2020.

The Bucks/FTR storyline was odd, I'll agree with that. No idea why the Bucks suddenly turned heel, making it a heel vs heel match, then still seemed to expect to be treated as faces. The match was great, but the build up didn't make much sense.

Whilst Brandi isn't much of a wrestler, I don't have any issue with her in the role she's currently in. It's not like she's eating up much TV time since the Nightmare Collective, which was a mistake, disappeared.

Can't say I have much of a problem with how Jericho has been used. The biggest name in the company, can still work fine (much better than Hogan could in WCW back in the 90s) and isn't above working with wrestlers much lower on the card than him. Has built and led a solid and entertaining stable. His name value is invaluable to a start up like AEW, and I don't blame them for putting him front and centre early on.

Can't imagine the likes of Luther or Nakazawa are on much, and is Reby Hardy signed with AEW? I know she's appeared in a few Matt Hardy segments but I don't remember seeing that she's signed on any kind of deal. AEW's roster probably is a bit bloated at the moment, but I'm not going to knock them for employing wrestlers during a pandemic. If they're still making money then good for them. 

Also I'm watching Attitude Era shows at the moment and trust me, JR had to call far more stupid, embarrassing stuff then than he ever has to in AEW.

Edited December 20, 2020 by DE.

[DE.]

I can't be the only one who thinks the ending to TLC was fucking absurd? It's not the first time I've felt this way with the Fiend storylines, but this went way over the top for me.

[Miller11]

1 hour ago, DE. said:

I can't be the only one who thinks the ending to TLC was fucking absurd? It's not the first time I've felt this way with the Fiend storylines, but this went way over the top for me.

Haven’t watched it yet, but it looks completely ridiculous from the bits I’ve seen online. 
 

The WWE downturn since Bruce Prichard got back tight with Vince has been remarkable. I like Bruce and have been a big fan, but it’s undeniable at the moment.

[Mike E]

2 hours ago, DE. said:

I can't be the only one who thinks the ending to TLC was fucking absurd? It's not the first time I've felt this way with the Fiend storylines, but this went way over the top for me.

I smell a knee-jerk to USA's 'adult content' demands.

[DE.]

AEW beats Raw in the key demo for one week and next thing you know the Fiend is burned to death. Until tonight when he'll magically reappear unharmed, obviously. 

[Mike E]

5 minutes ago, DE. said:

AEW beats Raw in the key demo for one week and next thing you know the Fiend is burned to death. Until tonight when he'll magically reappear unharmed, obviously. 

If they play it smart they'd draw it out a little and have him return at the Rumble or something.

They need to learn to give things time to breathe.

[DE.]

That would indeed be the smart thing to do, but I always expect the opposite of smart booking from WWE.

[Bigdoggsteel]

The fiend loses WAY too much. Cool character, but booking and storylines all over the place.

 

[Blue blood]

19 hours ago, DE. said:

I can't be the only one who thinks the ending to TLC was fucking absurd? It's not the first time I've felt this way with the Fiend storylines, but this went way over the top for me.

 

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

The fiend loses WAY too much. Cool character, but booking and storylines all over the place.

 

Agree with BDS. In some ways an infirno match isn't totally stupid. I don't think it's easy to do well or leads to great matches but at least it ties into the history of the two competitors. That said a month's build (at best) after years of neither revisiting said beer between them lessens any need for such a match up. Hardly a blowoff to months of ongoing tension. 

Then there's the result itself. The Fiend comes across as unstoppable until he loses match after match. Totally loses the mystique and power. "Scary" characters are only scary if you think they are unstoppable. The Fiend clearly isn't. As for the ending itself that utterly killed off the Fiend character as he looked totally beaten. Orton didn't survive but crush him. 

Then there is Orton himself. What are they doing with him? A credible challenger for the title, wins it, and then loses it straight away taking away some dominance. Guess he gets it back after killing the Fiend but that seems a big trade off. Also enjoyable as Orton MacImtyre was am not sure round 4 isn't overkill. 

The lack of credible challengers on Raw (and Smackdown) is terrible. Poor booking all round. There's no thought beyond 1 month slots for the most part and it's no wonder they are struggling. 

Shame as there's a lot of talent there.