Wrestling Entertainment - we know, you don't have to tell us!

[Mike E]

39 minutes ago, JoeH said:

If AEW fix the audio/presentation issues they often have, get the women's division right and continue to do most of the other great stuff they're doing, this is only going one way. The Khan's are significantly wealthier than the McMahon's. WWE need to do something different and they need to do it yesterday.

WWE needs the McMahon of the mid-90s, and I believe that HHH could easily be that person.

Trouble is the old McMahon won't let go.

[DE.]

4 hours ago, Dreyski said:

As a HHH pet project, the writing may be on the wall for him. If he goes, hopefully Zayn/Generico leaves with him.

I think Zayn's contract is up in October, so he may end up in AEW before Owens. 

With that said how many performers can AEW absorb? They've already got a ridiculously stacked roster.

[Miller11]

7 minutes ago, DE. said:

I think Zayn's contract is up in October, so he may end up in AEW before Owens. 

With that said how many performers can AEW absorb? They've already got a ridiculously stacked roster.

It’s a very fine balancing act. A lot of the recent signings from WWE have been absolute must haves for AEW, but had they known they were going to get Punk, Danielson, Christian, Cole, Black they may have thought twice about the likes of Andrade, Spears, Henry etc.

Owens, Zayn and Wyatt probably all fall into the must have category too, so I think there needs to be a period of assessment. Let the roster find their levels, and trim some of the fat.

Off the top of my head, Luther, Avalon, Stunt, Spears, Kiss, Hager, Janella, Nakazawa, Sabian, Taylor, Angelico, Evans, Cage could all be cut with no harm to the product. Sorry to say, but at this point binning off Jericho and Matt Hardy would probably be smart too.

AEW’s profile is raising at a rapid rate, purely due to these acquisitions. It’s on a steep upward trajectory, and though there is still a gap between them and WWE, the fed is in serious decline. There’s an obvious outcome if this continues.

I was thinking about parallels with WCW in the early 90s earlier, and while there are some, the differences are much greater. AEW has a rabidly loyal fanbase - to a large portion the company can do no wrong, even if they were to become completely overloaded with ex wwe talent (a danger/possibility), the fans wouldn’t care.

Conversely, WWE has irritated, alienated and turned of viewers en mass over recent years. Probably their biggest issue is their complete lack of top level stars. Reigns and Lesnar aside, what are the options? Beg Cena for a full time return? Wheel out Undertaker? More Randy Orton?

One thing is for sure, there is no Rock equivalent on the horizon, and no Austin type scenario in a rival promotion for them to build around. To me, they have to implement a drastic culture change… but I still think they are gearing up for a sale, which may be hurried somewhat due to AEWs rise. Maybe TK will buy Vince out?!

[DE.]

17 hours ago, Miller11 said:

It’s a very fine balancing act. A lot of the recent signings from WWE have been absolute must haves for AEW, but had they known they were going to get Punk, Danielson, Christian, Cole, Black they may have thought twice about the likes of Andrade, Spears, Henry etc.

Owens, Zayn and Wyatt probably all fall into the must have category too, so I think there needs to be a period of assessment. Let the roster find their levels, and trim some of the fat.

Off the top of my head, Luther, Avalon, Stunt, Spears, Kiss, Hager, Janella, Nakazawa, Sabian, Taylor, Angelico, Evans, Cage could all be cut with no harm to the product. Sorry to say, but at this point binning off Jericho and Matt Hardy would probably be smart too.

I tend to agree - I can't imagine Tony Khan could have foreseen that this much talent would be available in such a short space of time. He had built AEW on the basis of having Jericho and Moxley as their main two 'stars' and may have hoped they could snatch another one or two decent names after that. They were probably hoping/expecting Punk would turn up sooner rather than later, but there's no way they could have known WWE was going to release so many big names in the past year and a half. 

Their business model is going to have to evolve very quickly to adjust to it. I don't think it's a bad thing, but it might bring forward a lot of plans they were saving for 2022/2023. As you say, it may necessitate some roster trimming too. They've got a lot of programs to highlight talent (Dynamite, Dark, Elevation & Rampage) and they've got good relationships with various other companies, so sending talent to those companies is an option I'm sure they'll exercise as well. With that said there's definitely still room to streamline the roster and I expect they will. 

Personally I think Jericho still has some value. Not as a main event level player at this point, but as their OG big star and with the history he's built in AEW there's still room for him to contribute effectively imo. Matt Hardy and his Hardy Family Office schtick has fallen pretty flat, but I think he can still be used to elevate people if done properly. Depends how much he's being paid though. 

17 hours ago, Miller11 said:

I was thinking about parallels with WCW in the early 90s earlier, and while there are some, the differences are much greater. AEW has a rabidly loyal fanbase - to a large portion the company can do no wrong, even if they were to become completely overloaded with ex wwe talent (a danger/possibility), the fans wouldn’t care.

Conversely, WWE has irritated, alienated and turned of viewers en mass over recent years. Probably their biggest issue is their complete lack of top level stars. Reigns and Lesnar aside, what are the options? Beg Cena for a full time return? Wheel out Undertaker? More Randy Orton?

One thing is for sure, there is no Rock equivalent on the horizon, and no Austin type scenario in a rival promotion for them to build around. To me, they have to implement a drastic culture change… but I still think they are gearing up for a sale, which may be hurried somewhat due to AEWs rise. Maybe TK will buy Vince out?!

I'm always a little wary when it comes to comparing AEW and WCW. There are some obvious similarities, but also a lot of significant differences. AEW has WCW's production values and similar network/financial backing, but in terms of the product I think it's closer to an amalgamation of ECW and early TNA. I've watched WCW extensively over the years and people forget how bad some of the wrestling was - even during the golden years. The cruiserweights were great and they had some solid mid-carders too, but they also had crap like Jim Duggan, the Nasty Boys, the Amazing French Canadians, the Dungeon of Doom, Squire Dave Taylor, Glacier, Jeff Jarrett, Mongo McMichael, etc - who were taking up a lot more time than is generally remembered. The main events also tended to be pretty poor, whereas AEW tend to deliver on their main events. 

For what it's worth, whilst AEW's fanbase is very loyal, it's because they are listened to. They feel connected with the product, the wrestlers and the people running the show. It isn't blind loyalty where they would just accept anything that's thrown at them. If that was the case then Brandi's faction wouldn't have been pulled, and the Dark Order wouldn't have been completely restructured. The fans let AEW know when they don't like something - the difference is that AEW listen to them and act on it. That's why this loyalty exists. I am sure if the show was flooded with WWE mid-carders and the storylines and matches went to shit the fans would let the company know. 

As for WWE... there has been a terminal decline going on there for over a decade. Ratings and attendance have been slowly eroding for a long time. Lack of serious competition made them lazy and arrogant, feeling like they could do whatever they wanted and thumb their nose at the fans. They are very fortunate TV rights for live sports are so lucrative right now, as without that they would be in trouble. They've become a company that succeeds even in failure. If they went out of business tomorrow it would be fully deserved as they have shit on their fans for years now, but I don't think WWE is going anywhere any time soon. They'll plateau at some point and it will be far below the level they were once at, but as long as they have TV deals, the Saudis, etc, they'll be alright. Personally though I find their entire business model to be deeply flawed and Raw in particular unwatchable. Smackdown is OK. NXT remains to be seen now that Triple H and Shawn Michaels are being usurped. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by DE.

[DE.]

To further emphasise the above on WWE, apparently their plan for Adam Cole on the main roster was to have him become a manager for a newly-turned heel Keith Lee - and they also wanted to change his name.

Even by WWE standards that's hilariously stupid. No wonder Adam Cole said it was an easy decision to go to AEW.

[Miller11]

A little off topic, and a little late, but I meant to mention this on here as soon as I saw it.

If you didn’t catch Walter v Ilja Dragunov from the most recent Takeover, go out of your way to watch it. Incredible match.

[DE.]

1.3m viewers for Dynamite this week, and they also beat Raw in the 18-49 demo. Obviously you have to take the PPV bump into account, and the debuts of Adam Cole and Bryan Danielson, but still very impressive. It'll be interesting to see if they can maintain those numbers. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

21 hours ago, DE. said:

To further emphasise the above on WWE, apparently their plan for Adam Cole on the main roster was to have him become a manager for a newly-turned heel Keith Lee - and they also wanted to change his name.

Even by WWE standards that's hilariously stupid. No wonder Adam Cole said it was an easy decision to go to AEW.

What is it with Vince? I don't buy that he just thinks Cole is too small to be a top guy, as he's the same height as Balor who is in the world title picture. 

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

What is it with Vince? I don't buy that he just thinks Cole is too small to be a top guy, as he's the same height as Balor who is in the world title picture. 

Honestly it's hard to understand what he's thinking at this point. It's almost like he does stuff like this on purpose to rile up NXT fans. The amount of talent (NXT and non-NXT) that he's wasted and buried in the past 2/3 years is astounding. Even with guys you'd expect him to be all in on (eg. Braun Strowman) he finds a way to wreck them. 

Even Daniel Bryan/Bryan Danielson had to jump through a ridiculous amount of hoops to be truly accepted by Vince as a top tier player, and this was someone insanely talented who was insanely over. The fact they were going to go with Randy Orton Vs Batista at WM as the main event when Danielson was on fire says it all really. Back then they still listened to fan backlash if it was loud enough, but nowadays I actually think they would have ignored the fans and gone with Orton/Batista anyway. 

The only hope we have is that Vince wakes up to the fact AEW is serious competition and sorts himself and WWE out. I'm not really sure he has it in him anymore, but AEW's momentum is undeniable at the moment and if I was a younger fan I know which promotion I'd be gravitating towards.

[Dreyski]

Fantastic match between Danielson and Omega on Dynamite. I do worry for Danielson with some of the bumps he takes though.

[DE.]

I know what you mean. Even towards the end of his WWE run there were bumps Danielson took that made me cringe. Knowing his history with head and neck injuries it's hard not to. 

At this point it seems clear that Danielson doesn't want to tame that beast inside him. Regardless of everything that's happened he still wants to be the American Dragon. I loved the match against Omega on Dynamite but some of those spots did concern me. The V-Trigger always looks rough to take to be honest, but that running one near the end... that looked really rough to take. 

The current generation of AEW/NJPW stars won't die early from drink/drugs like many of the old WWE/WCW legends, but I do wonder how mobile they'll be by the time they get to their 50s and 60s. These guys are taking a lot of punishment, very often, and there are far too many spots focused on the head/neck for my liking. They are the most visually impressive and look the most devastating, but still... taking those bumps repeatedly can't be good long-term.

[DE.]

Extreme Rules... a PPV billed for 'extreme' stipulations, that this year had no stipulations and nothing 'extreme' until the main event. Next year if this is the direction they're going with the PPV they may as well just call it 'Normal Rules'. That aside I'm finding it increasingly hard to watch WWE nowadays - even the PPVs. Their wrestling style is just so boring to me compared to AEW. But anyway...

The Usos Vs the Street Profits was a good match. The outcome was obvious but still a fun encounter. Have to say overall I find the Profits promos more cringe than funny, but entirely possible that's caused by WWE creative.

It was nice that Bliss dropped the supernatural bullshit for the match with Charlotte, and it was a pretty good contest. Not sure what that white tablet in Bliss' mouth was at the end? I think it was supposed to make her froth/drool but didn't seem to work as intended.

Jeff Hardy was mega over despite WWE largely burying him for whatever reason over the past year or so. The match itself didn't do anything for me but there was technically nothing wrong with it.

Lynch and Belair was OK, although the decision to turn Lynch heel is still a strange one for me. I know it was her choice so not blaming WWE for that one, but I would have waited a few months before pulling that trigger.

Reigns/Balor... you know, it was a solid match until the ending, which was just embarrassing in my view. The 'resurrection' was just so stupid, and then for the ropes to break for no reason and the fearsome demon to suddenly become powerless due to a leg injury? Stupidity on a scale only WWE can reach. If they had shown the Usos or Heyman fiddling with the ropes beforehand I'd say at least there was some thought put into the ending, as dumb as it was, but are we supposed to believe the ropes broke due to Finn's weight? The guy is half the size of most of the roster ffs.

The ending was creative and could have been OK with some major tweaks. As it is though it just reminded me of a less-idiotic-but-still-brainless version of the HIAC Fiend/Rollins finish. It was obvious Roman was going over as he's due to face Lesnar in Saudi Arabia, and they did protect Balor's Demon persona to some degree... but this idea needed more time to marinate. It was put out half-baked and came across as ridiculous to me.

Edited September 27, 2021 by DE.

[Miller11]

Hadn’t even bothered reading the extreme rules results until your post @DE., let alone watching it.

On the flip side, AEW have just done their best show yet by some margin. Just about all the nonsense was gone and the additions of Bryan and Punk have levelled things up massively.

The best match I’ve seen in ages was still the recent Dragunov V Walter match from the last takeover, but NXT is now just rubbish. Lesnar, Heyman and Reigns can shoulder a lot of the burden, but not as much as they will need to at the moment. They have some huge potential, not least Rick Steiner’s son… who for Vince McMahon reasons they have repackaged and called Bron Breakker. It’s just idiotic.

WWE’s constant self sabotage at all levels coupled with AEW’s rapid improvements and dropping of nonsense will lead to a change at the top quicker than I thought.

[DE.]

2 hours ago, Miller11 said:

Hadn’t even bothered reading the extreme rules results until your post @DE., let alone watching it.

On the flip side, AEW have just done their best show yet by some margin. Just about all the nonsense was gone and the additions of Bryan and Punk have levelled things up massively.

The best match I’ve seen in ages was still the recent Dragunov V Walter match from the last takeover, but NXT is now just rubbish. Lesnar, Heyman and Reigns can shoulder a lot of the burden, but not as much as they will need to at the moment. They have some huge potential, not least Rick Steiner’s son… who for Vince McMahon reasons they have repackaged and called Bron Breakker. It’s just idiotic.

WWE’s constant self sabotage at all levels coupled with AEW’s rapid improvements and dropping of nonsense will lead to a change at the top quicker than I thought.

Honestly I wouldn't bother watching Extreme Rules unless you want something on in the background whilst you're doing something else. It is not worth investing any time into. In a lot of ways the results of the PPV were pointless due to the upcoming draft anyway.

Speaking of the draft, remember when it actually used to be fun and interesting? How WWE now manage to get something as simple as a draft wrong and make that confusing and boring is beyond me. It really isn't that difficult. I can remember last time they had 'action rooms' with fake Fox and USA execs and it was just awful. I liked when they just used to announce draft picks on stage. 

I feel like Reigns is becoming increasingly overexposed at this point. The 'head of the Table' gimmick was great when it first started, but now it's on repeat every episode. It's the same thing over and over again. They've added a bit of a wrinkle with the Reigns/Heyman/Lesnar triangle but by and large Roman's character is already starting to feel a bit stale. It's a shame because it isn't Roman's fault. He's doing a solid job, he just isn't being given anything fresh to sink his teeth into.

I don't really know what to say about Bron Breakker. What exactly was wrong with Rex Steiner? I'm guessing that for Vince the Steiner name has too strong of a link with WCW so it had to go. Even though WWE won the war it feels like WCW has been living in Vince's head rent-free ever since 2001. He just can't let it go. 

I haven't watched NXT in a really long time - it might be over a year at this point. I can't imagine NXT 2.0 is an improvement so I'll just stick to Dynamite, Rampage and Smackdown. 

[Dreyski]

Just skip to about 30 mins in for Danielson vs Suzuki.

[Mike E]

7 hours ago, Dreyski said:

Just skip to about 30 mins in for Danielson vs Suzuki.

Jesus! That's a flavour of match I haven't seen in a while! Probably closest is something like Walter Vs Druganov?

[DE.]

ROH is going on "hiatus" but a good chance it's finished. They claim to be coming back in April but have released all of their talent from contract and their tape library from 2012 to the present is for sale to the highest bidder. Even if they do come back it will barely be the same entity at this point. 

Personally I've watched barely any ROH as I've always found their production values below what I can tolerate, but early ROH especially has left a huge legacy on the industry in terms of some of the stars it produced.

[Mike E]

Thought Full Gear DELIVERED! Terrific PPV all the way through imo, and the sheer elation after the Main Event.

Don't think I've been that absorbed in a wrestling victory since Punk at MITB in Chicago. Possibly even Benoit at WM20.

[Dreyski]

It's an odd feeling, seeing as every match was good to great (main event MOTY candidate?), but the pacing was a little off, with every match apart from Punk/Kingston going over 20 minutes. This show was a good example of why you need concession break matches or in-ring loligags for intermission. But AEW doesn't really have that yet. I dare say that's a good problem to have, because it's not perceived as a complete clown show.

[DE.]

Yeah Full Gear was pretty great. Sounds like Omega is done for a while now, though. Multiple surgeries required. Sounds like he's been working with significant pain, so credit to him for putting on some outstanding matches despite being injured. The good thing about AEW is that they are consistently building talent up, so even when big stars leave there are people ready and able to take those spots for themselves. 

Meanwhile in the hellscape that is WWE, a bunch more talent has been cut including the only recently called up to the main roster Hit Row, Tegan Nox, John Morrison & Drake Maverick. WWE have now released around 150 wrestlers over the course of the past two years - 80 this year so far - all whilst posting record profits. I've stopped watching Raw and Smackdown and am probably done with WWE at this point. The product doesn't interest me and the company as a whole is just so unethical and gross that I just don't want to support it anymore.

It's AEW here on out for me!

[Blue blood]

33 minutes ago, DE. said:

Yeah Full Gear was pretty great. Sounds like Omega is done for a while now, though. Multiple surgeries required. Sounds like he's been working with significant pain, so credit to him for putting on some outstanding matches despite being injured. The good thing about AEW is that they are consistently building talent up, so even when big stars leave there are people ready and able to take those spots for themselves. 

Meanwhile in the hellscape that is WWE, a bunch more talent has been cut including the only recently called up to the main roster Hit Row, Tegan Nox, John Morrison & Drake Maverick. WWE have now released around 150 wrestlers over the course of the past two years - 80 this year so far - all whilst posting record profits. I've stopped watching Raw and Smackdown and am probably done with WWE at this point. The product doesn't interest me and the company as a whole is just so unethical and gross that I just don't want to support it anymore.

It's AEW here on out for me!

Its a shambles at WWE alright. I have no idea of the criteria they use. Insanely talented and popular like Keith Lee - released. Pure theatre (and when the likes of Balor and Lee are bumping for him credible) Kross - released. Hugely popular and over tapping into the music that WWE are trying to align with Hit Row - released. I mean it makes no sense whatsoever. Whatever criteria WWE are using its a poor one. 

What makes it worse is that they are giving great talent to AEW. Bryan, Punk, Cole, Black are all excellent talents who could be (and in 3 of the cases are) huge stars. It seems wrestlers wrestlers are all going to AEW which is going to swing increasingly more of the core audience. Perhaps they don't mind because of their profits, but you can't help feeling this is going to hurt WWE down the road. They can't keep shunting out the veterans forever. They need new and credible stars and a lot is resting on too few shoulders imo. 

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Blue blood said:

Its a shambles at WWE alright. I have no idea of the criteria they use. Insanely talented and popular like Keith Lee - released. Pure theatre (and when the likes of Balor and Lee are bumping for him credible) Kross - released. Hugely popular and over tapping into the music that WWE are trying to align with Hit Row - released. I mean it makes no sense whatsoever. Whatever criteria WWE are using its a poor one. 

What makes it worse is that they are giving great talent to AEW. Bryan, Punk, Cole, Black are all excellent talents who could be (and in 3 of the cases are) huge stars. It seems wrestlers wrestlers are all going to AEW which is going to swing increasingly more of the core audience. Perhaps they don't mind because of their profits, but you can't help feeling this is going to hurt WWE down the road. They can't keep shunting out the veterans forever. They need new and credible stars and a lot is resting on too few shoulders imo. 

I seriously think there is some credibility to the rumours WWE are shaping up to sell to Disney or another interested party. Everything they are doing at the moment points to that being the most likely scenario. Whoever buys the company will be purchasing an entity with some big names to build off, but not much insofar as roster bloat is concerned. They'll basically be able to shape the company in whatever way they desire. I guess that would make WWE an attractive proposition in many circles, particularly combined with record revenue and profits.

Honestly though the WWE product just bores me at this point. Raw has been awful for a long time and Smackdown nowadays isn't much better, as they've played out the 'Tribal Chief' thing and there's no credible challengers left for Roman - except Drew McIntyre, who WWE have cooled off massively in the past few months. 

Now that they've nerfed NXT as well there's just nothing left in WWE that interests me. 

[Dreyski]

There were stories that the Kross/Lee round of layoffs were related to their vaccine status, or lack of,  but I don't know if there's any substance to that.

I feel bad for Nox. To build back from potentially career-ending injuries and finally make it onto the main show, but get released before making an appearance.

(and please can Paige get medically cleared and become All Elite?)

[DE.]

I'm not sure AEW would be interested in going near Paige and her notoriously poor judgement, even if she was cleared. Nox would be a solid addition to their women's division, though.

[DE.]

WWE have apparently released Jeff Hardy. On Saturday at a house show there was a strange moment during a multi-man tag where Jeff rolled out of the ring and went into the crowd, and never returned. WWE pulled him from the road after that. Reportedly they offered him the chance to go to rehab and he turned it down, hence the release.