Cricket

[broadsword]

There's plenty of time left, and the conservative decision would be to ile on the runs and leave them to bat last with an impossible target. It would demoralise them and the conditions would be deteriorating.

[pg]

A part time bowler ripping through this fragile England middle order. All the talk prior to the game was about Finn. It's the batsmen they should have focused on.

Brilliant from Michael Clarke too. Inspired bowling changes all throughout the day. That's why, along with MS Dhoni, He is the best captain in the world.

You would not see such bravery/tactical changes from Cook.

Actually he's an awful captain IMO and the rot of the Australian team starts with him.

The reason why Katich will never play for Australia again is that he and Clarke had a huge bust-up in the dressing room a few seasons ago (see here and here.)

Ponting is retired. The South Africans in Australia last summer showed that Ponting is no longer of Test standard.

For the good of the team, Clarke should bat at four. But he's a selfish prick, so he doesn't.

In any case, perhaps after being smashed 5-0 home and away Clarke will resign as captain and we can begin the rebuilding process properly, instead of just papering over the cracks and pretending we still have a Test team. Agar's fluke debut innings is not the norm.

I bet someone will soon do an analysis of the number of top-order batting collapses we've had since Clarke was captain relative to other 'dark times' in our Test history. Maybe I'm an old fart and my memory is shot but I can't remember us rolling over so regularly in the 1980's under Border. Yes the Windies rolled us cheaply at home a few times in '84, and Hadlee did the same a few years earlier, but I also remember some players getting stuck in and situations like Border and Matthews celebrating when we avoided the follow-on.

PS I told you we can't play spin to save ourselves.

Edited July 19, 2013 by pg

[Baz]

I dont see how batting collapses are Clarke's fault. IMO your batting lineup (and England's too) is at its worse for a long time. It doesn't help that the Aussies lack of a real world class bowler also relieves pressure on the batsmen too (England have Jimmy Dingle and to a lesser extent Swan) The first 2 tests to date have showed some real poor batting, people capable of a lot, who are just giving an easy wicket away.as long as England don't mess this 2nd innings up, then id struggle to see an Aussie win, and 2-0 down needing all to regain the Ashes will be a massive test of character for the Aussies.

[old darwen blue]

I'm enjoying reading your counter viewpoints pg, that's what makes a good forum

[pg]

I dont see how batting collapses are Clarke's fault. IMO your batting lineup (and England's too) is at its worse for a long time. It doesn't help that the Aussies lack of a real world class bowler also relieves pressure on the batsmen too (England have Jimmy Dingle and to a lesser extent Swan) The first 2 tests to date have showed some real poor batting, people capable of a lot, who are just giving an easy wicket away.as long as England don't mess this 2nd innings up, then id struggle to see an Aussie win, and 2-0 down needing all to regain the Ashes will be a massive test of character for the Aussies.

Clarke contributes to the collapse in two ways

1) By coming in at #5, the batting has already collapsed when he comest to the wicket. If he comes in at #4 (or heaven forfend #3) he can stop the collapse in the first place. When we rebuilt our side in the 80's Allan Border always batted at #3 or #4.

2) By ensuring that a player with a test average of 45 (who has made 874 runs at 72 in the current country season) won't play for Australia.

Re : bowling. Peter Siddle is currently ranked #5 in the world (3rd best paceman behind Steyn and Philander). Our depth in pace bowling is fine (and is probably the 2nd best in the world) when we can choose from Siddle, Pattinson, Starc, Harris and Johnson. We have no spin option though and haven't since Warne retired.

Which is another reason why the English should embrace the dry summer and prepare dust bowls. You have good spinners, our batsman can't play spin and it nullifies the only advantage we have IMO which is a good pace attack.

Edited July 20, 2013 by pg

[pg]

And Gooch and Gower ..just in the interests of balance you understand.

BTW I was trawling cricinfo today and if you sort the #of runs made by Test batsman from 1980 to 1989, this is what you find:

AR Border (Aus) 1980-1989 97 164 30 7386 205 55.11 20 40 4

DI Gower (Eng) 1980-1989 89 157 11 6196 215 42.43 12 32 4

Javed Miandad (Pak) 1980-1989 76 110 7 5642 280* 54.77 16 26 3

IVA Richards (WI) 1980-1989 78 112 8 5113 208 49.16 15 28 7

Gooch made 3970 runs at 38.5. Note quite in the same league.

Edited July 20, 2013 by pg

[T4E]

I thought it was a bowlers' wicket myself but I'm no expert. We were skittling them out. Maybe we didn't fancy a target chase?

Exactly - it's only going to become more of a bowlers wicket. You don't want to be chasing anything on this wicket. Imagine we were chasing 100 to win on day 4 and are sat at 30-3 like we are now. We've just heaped a load of pressure on ourselves.

Batting again was the only thing that made sense.

Edited July 20, 2013 by T4E

[RibbleValleyRover]

There's something in the pitch because of the slope and the patches of rough that produce the odd big turner. During the first two days at least this was overall a pretty decent pitch to bat on. Of course the next few days it's only going to become better for bowling as it breaks up.

Sure the Aussie bowling attack doesn't have bowlers the class as Warne or McGrath but they have a pretty decent bowling attack. Siddle has improved a lot since we last saw him and Harris has great stats but has been hampered by injury.

On the issue of Clarke I think it's clear there is plenty of friction and factions in that Australian team. Clarke has an average of 66+ since he took over so apart from this series he has been batting pretty well since he took over, but you could argue his use of the DRS at times has been baffling and detrimental to Australia. I wonder if Watson (rumored to have fallen out with Clarke) deliberately used a DRS that he knew would have failed to @#/? him off? Wouldn't surprise me.

Unless Australia can get a few wickets this morning to get them out cheaply and then bat really well in the second Innings then England is going to go 2-0 up. If that happens then England will win the series, I can't see Australia winning the 3 on the bounce needed.

Edited July 20, 2013 by RibbleValleyRover

[thenodrog]

There's something in the pitch because of the slope and the patches of rough that produce the odd big turner. During the first two days at least this was overall a pretty decent pitch to bat on. Of course the next few days it's only going to become better for bowling as it breaks up.

Sure the Aussie bowling attack doesn't have bowlers the class as Warne or McGrath but they have a pretty decent bowling attack. Siddle has improved a lot since we last saw him and Harris has great stats but has been hampered by injury.

On the issue of Clarke I think it's clear there is plenty of friction and factions in that Australian team. Clarke has an average of 66+ since he took over so apart from this series he has been batting pretty well since he took over, but you could argue his use of the DRS at times has been baffling and detrimental to Australia. I wonder if Watson (rumored to have fallen out with Clarke) deliberately used a DRS that he knew would have failed to @#/? him off? Wouldn't surprise me.

Unless Australia can get a few wickets this morning to get them out cheaply and then bat really well in the second Innings then England is going to go 2-0 up. If that happens then England will win the series, I can't see Australia winning the 3 on the bounce needed.

Especially as it hasn't rained yet.... the law of averages suggest that it's due to.

btw all you lot who are saying it's a bowlers wicket must know the square root of sweet FA about cricket..... Jim mk2 reckons he's a cricketing genius and he insists both teams should easily pass 450 every innings.

[broadsword]

To be fair to Jim, so did England ...

Swann also explained the thinking behind his and Broad's aggressive
stance in adding some useful runs at the end of England's first innings.

"We talked about just getting as many as possible on this pitch," he added.

"We thought it was a pitch that was much more of a 450 pitch, so we
were a bit below par and talked about getting as many as possible.

[SouthAussieRover]

Clarke's record at number 4 does match his record batting at number 5 .

So perhaps he's not good enough to bat at 4?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/652803.html

[jim mk2]

BTW

Gooch made 3970 runs at 38.5. Note quite in the same league.

Case of lies, damned lies and statistics.

Gooch made a very poor start to his Test career before he came good.

He was of the best and probably most destructive England batsman I have seen - his dismantling of the famed West Indies attack (at Lord's I think it was) in 1980 was the best Test innings i have seen. I would pay money to watch Graham Gooch - i wouldn't cross the road to see most of other so-called "great" players with better averages.

[somersetrover]

Clarke contributes to the collapse in two ways

1) By coming in at #5, the batting has already collapsed when he comest to the wicket. If he comes in at #4 (or heaven forfend #3) he can stop the collapse in the first place. When we rebuilt our side in the 80's Allan Border always batted at #3 or #4.

2) By ensuring that a player with a test average of 45 (who has made 874 runs at 72 in the current country season) won't play for Australia.

Re : bowling. Peter Siddle is currently ranked #5 in the world (3rd best paceman behind Steyn and Philander). Our depth in pace bowling is fine (and is probably the 2nd best in the world) when we can choose from Siddle, Pattinson, Starc, Harris and Johnson. We have no spin option though and haven't since Warne retired.

1) For me it is madness having your best batsman not coming in until you are 3 wickets down another thing I could never understand was why Hussey never came in until six. One of those should have batted at 3 after Ponting dropped down to 4, instead of using inexperienced test players like Cowan, Quiney, Khawaja, Hughes, Marsh and Watson (who I like as cricketer but is not a number 3).

2) Katich is 38 this year I think you should be looking to bring in younger players than that I don't know why Joe Burns has no been selected, over the last 2 years he has really impressed me in Sheffield Shield Cricket.

Re : bowling. Do you really rate Johnson, I thought that the decision to leave him out the Ashes squad is about the only good decision Inverarity and the rest of he selectors made. Although the 4 seamers Australia have played this series have bowled well I would like to see Jackson Bird given a game he has impressed me in the last couple of years in Sheffield Shield cricket and had a very good debut series against Sri Lanka and he looks tailor made for English playing conditions. Another seamer you have who I think if fit will cause England lots of trouble in the winter is Pat Cummins he looks a real prospect to me and I was pleased to see him get some wickets for the A team over the last couple of days.

On the spinners I don't think its that you have no option its that you are picking the wrong option, Agar may turn out to be a good bowler but at the moment he is not a better bowler than Nathan Lyon. Lyon has always impressed me when I have seen him bowl he usually ties an end down a takes some wickets, I hope Lyon does get to play this series but his confidence must be low after 9 wickets in his last test and then being dropped for 19 year old with just one decent first class season behind him. I think Lyon will still only improve as he is only 25 and the move to NSW and working with Stuart MacGill will help him greatly to make himself the number 1 spinner in the team.

As for this game and series it has confirmed what I have always thought that technology has no place in cricket or indeed any sport, its a shambles and making a mockery of the game instead of enhancing the game. Back in the day Bell would have accepted Smith's word that the ball carried today (which it did) and he would have walked, but walking and Bell sadly don't go together as we saw in the last ashes series in Sydney and at Trent Bridge against India to name just two examples.

[jim mk2]

Especially as it hasn't rained yet.... the law of averages suggest that it's due to.

btw all you lot who are saying it's a bowlers wicket must know the square root of sweet FA about cricket..... Jim mk2 reckons he's a cricketing genius and he insists both teams should easily pass 450 every innings.

1. I said it's a 450 pitch is the batsmen played properly. The pitch is a batsman's paradise... for proper Test batsmen.

2 I was referring to England only . I'm, not interested in the opposition.

3. You have again twisted words just to cause an argument.

4. You have again expressed an opinion on something you know nothing about.

5. Please stick to your usual areas of expertise. You know which they are.

Moving on, hats off to Root for a superb innings, making the opposition pay for a reprieve when he was only on 8.

I would like to see England make hay and throw the bat for 90 minutes tomorrow to get about 650 ahead.

That would give us 5 sessions to knock over a thoroughly demoralised opposition and keep our foot firmly on their throats while they are down.

[pg]

Case of lies, damned lies and statistics.

Gooch made a very poor start to his Test career before he came good.

He was of the best and probably most destructive England batsman I have seen - his dismantling of the famed West Indies attack (at Lord's I think it was) in 1980 was the best Test innings i have seen. I would pay money to watch Graham Gooch - i wouldn't cross the road to see most of other so-called "great" players with better averages.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. Gooch may have a had a few good innings against the West Indies, but in 1989 Terry Alderman make him look like an idiot.

You'll never, ever convince an Australian that Gooch was an elite batsman because against us he was awful. I borrowed this book recently from the library for my son to read and it made the same point. I had no idea about Gooch's record and heroics against other countries.

I mean, if I post a link to

Bryan will be on his loungeroom floor in a foetal position in about 4 seconds Edited July 20, 2013 by pg

[jim mk2]

Fair enough, years ago the likes of Doug Walters and from the present day Mitchell Johnson are big jokes over here.

Mind you, some convict once said to me Ian Botham was laughed out of Australia. Forgive me for thinking you lot don't know anything about our great summer sport.

[somersetrover]

Fair enough, years ago the likes of Doug Walters and from the present day Mitchell Johnson are big jokes over here.

Doug Walters a joke, what are you talking about he was a class batsman and a decent bowler as well. Did you ever see him play or have you just read about his lifestyle of the field and come to that conclusion?

[broadsword]

The Alderman stuff was just pure torture.

1989 was just about as bad a year as I can remember to be an England fan.

If you're talking about swing bowling, then it's a hell of a shame that Simon Jones was never the same after 2005.

[pg]

RE : Johnson. I don't rate him as a spearhead but he's a good stock bowler. His overall record is still good (205 wickets at 31) but I'll never forgive him for singlehandedly losing the 2nd test of the 2009 series when he bowled 9 overs for 61 on the first day.

Edited July 20, 2013 by pg

[jim mk2]

Doug Walters a joke, what are you talking about he was a class batsman and a decent bowler as well. Did you ever see him play or have you just read about his lifestyle of the field and come to that conclusion?

Poor record in England. Yes, I saw him play.

[somersetrover]

RE : Johnson. I don't rate him as a spearhead but he's a good stock bowler. His overall record is still good (205 wickets at 31) but I'll never forgive for singlehandedly losing the 2nd test of the 2009 series when he bowled 9 overs for 61 on the first day.

You need to move on from the likes of Johnson he's nearly 32 now and Johnson never built on his fantastic series in South Africa in 2009, he just to inconsistent he should have an average of under 30. Also in my opinion although he bowled well 1st innings in this test you need to move on from Harris he's nearly 34 and had a lot of injuries so in the long term he offers nothing. You have a lot of good seam bowlers still to reach 30, Siddle, Starc, Cummins (huge prospect if he stays fit), Pattinson, Bird, Butterworth, Faulkner and Sayers, for me these are all capable of being very good seamers bowlers at test level as some have already shown and if you pick the right attack you have a lot of variety there as well.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I read a good story about Walters. Apparently he was notorious for not practicing in the nets but at this point in his career he was going through a bad spell with the bat. He was laid down in the changing room one day when to everyone's amazement he got up and announced " I think I'll have a practice ". With that he walked over to the dart board, threw three double twenties said " That's better " and laid back down again !

[Stuart]

I read a good story about Walters. Apparently he was notorious for not practicing in the nets but at this point in his career he was going through a bad spell with the bat. He was laid down in the changing room one day when to everyone's amazement he got up and announced " I think I'll have a practice ". With that he walked over to the dart board, threw three double twenties said " That's better " and laid back down again !

It would have been more impressive if he'd gone for trebles!

[thenodrog]

1. I said it's a 450 pitch is the batsmen played properly. The pitch is a batsman's paradise... for proper Test batsmen.

2 I was referring to England only . I'm, not interested in the opposition.

3. You have again twisted words just to cause an argument.

A certain high level of irony in that statement if you don't mind me saying so.

btw 'proper test batsman'? These are the finest players from two major cricketing nations not teams made up of the best players from the last century. I've no doubt their 'art' has been tainted by the demands of TV. Who knows with the emphasis on current limited over formats providing cricket for the masses and overall the amount of cricket played maybe Gooch might not have become the legend you make him out to be. Worse still the finest opening batsman in my time 'Sir' Geoffrey might have never got past Yorkshire 2nd XI!

[thenodrog]

Case of lies, damned lies and statistics.

Gooch made a very poor start to his Test career before he came good.

He was of the best and probably most destructive England batsman I have seen - his dismantling of the famed West Indies attack (at Lord's I think it was) in 1980 was the best Test innings i have seen. I would pay money to watch Graham Gooch - i wouldn't cross the road to see most of other so-called "great" players with better averages.

So you wouldn't cross the road to watch the likes of Richards, Border, Sobers? Your myopia has developed to an insane level.