Academy & U21s

[Lancaster Rover]

Yes we have competed, however those players were signed well before we were struggling at the foot of the championship. The likes of Wharton, Lenihan, Tomlinson, etc were taken on as scholars whilst we were in the prem or as a championship side spending money and looking to go back up. We are neither of those now, I think we will be able to tell an awful lot by the quality of the scholars we took on at the start of the season just finished and those we sign this coming season.

You're also kind of missing the point of EPPP, the most important detail is the E. EPPP was designed to bring players through at Elite level, league 1 is not elite level, premier league academies are churning out league 1 players for fun. The aim of EPPP is to develop players to play at the very highest level, us offering game time in league 1 is not the purpose of cat 1 academies. If we cannot guarantee an opportunity to play at the highest levels i.e. prem or champ we will be downgraded to Cat 2.

I know a few people who work at the academy and the work they do there is excellent, that isn't in question. My point is that the academy will not be exempt from the fall out from falling into league 1. In fact I think in time we will see that the academy is hit hardest should my predicition of losing cat 1 status comes home to roost.

[Parsonblue]

Just now, Lancaster Rover said:

Yes we have competed, however those players were signed well before we were struggling at the foot of the championship. The likes of Wharton, Lenihan, Tomlinson, etc were taken on as scholars whilst we were in the prem or as a championship side spending money and looking to go back up. We are neither of those now, I think we will be able to tell an awful lot by the quality of the scholars we took on at the start of the season just finished and those we sign this coming season.

You're also kind of missing the point of EPPP, the most important detail is the E. EPPP was designed to bring players through at Elite level, league 1 is not elite level, premier league academies are churning out league 1 players for fun. The aim of EPPP is to develop players to play at the very highest level, us offering game time in league 1 is not the purpose of cat 1 academies. If we cannot guarantee an opportunity to play at the highest levels i.e. prem or champ we will be downgraded to Cat 2.

I know a few people who work at the academy and the work they do there is excellent, that isn't in question. My point is that the academy will not be exempt from the fall out from falling into league 1. In fact I think in time we will see that the academy is hit hardest should my predicition of losing cat 1 status comes home to roost.

Look at the line-ups over the past five or six years of Premier League clubs who have faced Rovers at Under-18 level and then look at how many of those players have graduated to the first team at their respective clubs.  Premier League clubs rarely promote from within.   A player has to be exceptional.  Coming to Ewood offers the chance to make it through to senior level and earn a move to a bigger club.  We only have to look at the number of lads we have picked up from Premier League clubs and who have switched to our Academy in the hope of improving their chances to make a career within the game.  You only need look at how Crewe have operated over many years and the number of top class players that have developed at that club.  Being in the Fourth/Third Divisions didn't prove a handicap to recruitment. 

[AllRoverAsia]

All very interesting and naturally fans of all clubs will claim how important it is to develop youth.

Truth though is that a huge % of fans of all clubs have not watched a youth game in their lives.

To them what matters is what the FIRST team do, and not much else.

[Lancaster Rover]

I'm not disagreeing that EPPP (as with academies in their previous incarnations) are chicken farms for league 1 & 2 players, however my point remains that the point of EPPP and the investment is to find that one diamond amongst the many, many young lads who unfortunately don't make it.

My point is this, academies take on between 15 and 30 scholars per year, across the cat 1 clubs who have the pick of the bunch that's around 440 kids, of which around 22 will make a career in the top flight. We are going to be picking from the bottom end of what's on offer to cat 1 clubs as they will pick prem clubs over us regardless of our facilities. So if we are picking from the bottom 50 or so players out of a group with a top flight conversion rate of around 5% our chances of picking a winner are very very slim.

I am immensely proud of what our academy has churned out over the years however the simple fact is that being in league 1 is going to have a massively detrimental effect on the clubs ability to attract the top young players.

The days of Crewe bringing through players successfully are long gone,Christ Crewe barely have an academy these days. On the Crewe front they didn't actually have any better conversion rate of players to many other clubs, they just happened to have a number at the same time who signed for clubs like Liverpool, etc due to geographical proximity. They also benefited a great deal from taking on players released by those big name clubs and giving them a second chance, the number of kids taken on then was much smaller so the chance of making a career was much greater. The numbers of young players effectively warehoused by premier clubs these days is shocking, with very very few playing at the highest level. In fact the drop off rates of players falling out of the game completely post academy release is staggering.

[tomphil]

I think the future of the club is being laid out pretty clearly in the recent LT propaganda pieces. Sit in the middle of this division and produce academy players for the first team of league 1 standard. Do things on the cheap and hope to get lucky one season whilst the owners keep the lights on and ignore it.

There'll be no urgent scramble to get to back the championship, why should there be ? Some have had this model in mind for years and here it is.

[speeeeeeedie]

Just now, Lancaster Rover said:

I'm not disagreeing that EPPP (as with academies in their previous incarnations) are chicken farms for league 1 & 2 players, however my point remains that the point of EPPP and the investment is to find that one diamond amongst the many, many young lads who unfortunately don't make it.

My point is this, academies take on between 15 and 30 scholars per year, across the cat 1 clubs who have the pick of the bunch that's around 440 kids, of which around 22 will make a career in the top flight. We are going to be picking from the bottom end of what's on offer to cat 1 clubs as they will pick prem clubs over us regardless of our facilities. So if we are picking from the bottom 50 or so players out of a group with a top flight conversion rate of around 5% our chances of picking a winner are very very slim.

I am immensely proud of what our academy has churned out over the years however the simple fact is that being in league 1 is going to have a massively detrimental effect on the clubs ability to attract the top young players.

The days of Crewe bringing through players successfully are long gone,Christ Crewe barely have an academy these days. On the Crewe front they didn't actually have any better conversion rate of players to many other clubs, they just happened to have a number at the same time who signed for clubs like Liverpool, etc due to geographical proximity. They also benefited a great deal from taking on players released by those big name clubs and giving them a second chance, the number of kids taken on then was much smaller so the chance of making a career was much greater. The numbers of young players effectively warehoused by premier clubs these days is shocking, with very very few playing at the highest level. In fact the drop off rates of players falling out of the game completely post academy release is staggering.

Interesting post.

Professional football development has changed massively since my youth - early 90's. Back then it was YTS forms, manual labour, boot cleaning, training, games, and the odd cup competition.

15-30 players per year is a lot. Do they have teams to support all those players?

I do agree that Cat 1 academies are churning out more technically savvy players than past eras who are capable of playing league football. However, my theory is the drop out rate is so high due to the fact that they've been used to top class everything. Once they leave that environment disintegrates and they're forced to motivate from within. That gets harder and harder the longer they are gone from their former elevated stature.

Clubs care about the diamond. The parts that keep the diamond shiny are easily discarded.

 

[TBTF]

Just now, Lancaster Rover said:

I'm not disagreeing that EPPP (as with academies in their previous incarnations) are chicken farms for league 1 & 2 players, however my point remains that the point of EPPP and the investment is to find that one diamond amongst the many, many young lads who unfortunately don't make it.

My point is this, academies take on between 15 and 30 scholars per year, across the cat 1 clubs who have the pick of the bunch that's around 440 kids, of which around 22 will make a career in the top flight. We are going to be picking from the bottom end of what's on offer to cat 1 clubs as they will pick prem clubs over us regardless of our facilities. So if we are picking from the bottom 50 or so players out of a group with a top flight conversion rate of around 5% our chances of picking a winner are very very slim.

I am immensely proud of what our academy has churned out over the years however the simple fact is that being in league 1 is going to have a massively detrimental effect on the clubs ability to attract the top young players.

The days of Crewe bringing through players successfully are long gone,Christ Crewe barely have an academy these days. On the Crewe front they didn't actually have any better conversion rate of players to many other clubs, they just happened to have a number at the same time who signed for clubs like Liverpool, etc due to geographical proximity. They also benefited a great deal from taking on players released by those big name clubs and giving them a second chance, the number of kids taken on then was much smaller so the chance of making a career was much greater. The numbers of young players effectively warehoused by premier clubs these days is shocking, with very very few playing at the highest level. In fact the drop off rates of players falling out of the game completely post academy release is staggering.

Good point LR. I also remember this was a big concern of ian battersby in the Radio Lancs interview a couple of weeks back.Something to the effect that this will be our lifeblood now more than ever before as we are no longer likely to be buying our players.

[Lancaster Rover]

Just looking at the list of Cat 1 clubs, there are only 4 (excluding ourselves) outside of the prem; Reading, Fulham, Derby and Norwich. In fact if the old rules still applied we would have been kicked out of the old 'Premier Reserve League' as you were only allowed 2 seasons in it post relegation.

Cat 2 wise there is Crewe, Colchester, Coventry and Charlton who ply our trade outside of the top 2 divisions. I am very confident in saying that getting relegated to league 1 will have, in the long term a disastrous impact on our academy.

When re-assessed you have to satisfy the 5 criteria of productivity, welfare, education, coaching and facilities.

Productivity - we will struggle if the highest level we can offer is league 1.

Education - most clubs are now funding their scholars through a private education and/or building on site schools, are we? Will Venky's foot the bill for this?

Facilities - Other clubs are constantly investing and developing theirs, are we?

Coaching and welfare we should be able to satisfy but realistically its the 3 I've mentioned above that carry the greatest weight.

[Parsonblue]

Just now, Lancaster Rover said:

Just looking at the list of Cat 1 clubs, there are only 4 (excluding ourselves) outside of the prem; Reading, Fulham, Derby and Norwich. In fact if the old rules still applied we would have been kicked out of the old 'Premier Reserve League' as you were only allowed 2 seasons in it post relegation.

Cat 2 wise there is Crewe, Colchester, Coventry and Charlton who ply our trade outside of the top 2 divisions. I am very confident in saying that getting relegated to league 1 will have, in the long term a disastrous impact on our academy.

When re-assessed you have to satisfy the 5 criteria of productivity, welfare, education, coaching and facilities.

Productivity - we will struggle if the highest level we can offer is league 1.  THIS IS DEBATABLE WHEN LOOKING AT HOW MANY PLAYERS THE SYSTEM IS PRODUCING AT ALL CLUBS AT THE MOMENT.

Education - most clubs are now funding their scholars through a private education and/or building on site schools, are we? Will Venky's foot the bill for this?  AT THE MOMENT THEY ARE.

Facilities - Other clubs are constantly investing and developing theirs, are we?  THUS FAR WE HAVE THROUGHOUT VENKY'S TIME AT THE CLUB.   HOWEVER THAT IS NOT TO SAY THEY WON'T CUT BACK IN THIS AREA IN THE FUTURE.  IN THREE YEARS TIME I SUSPECT THE BAR WILL HAVE BEEN RAISED TO A LEVEL WHICH IS UNREALISTIC FOR ROVERS.

Coaching and welfare we should be able to satisfy but realistically its the 3 I've mentioned above that carry the greatest weight.

 

[Lancaster Rover]

Productivity - All a prem academy has to do is offer a young player 1 minute of game time and they have achieved more than we have since relegation in the eyes of EPPP.

EPPP was designed to allow the big clubs to take players from lower league clubs, the blow was softened/clubs held to ransom by the increased solidarity payments by the Premier League. My Dad was at the FL conference in Portugal where pretty much all the FL clubs were in agreement they were being shafted by the PL but were powerless to do anything as the threat of having the solidarity payments withdrawn would have bankrupted most league 1 & 2 clubs.

League 1 clubs are not wanted under cat 1. That is fact. Unless we make it back to the championship very quickly our academy will suffer irreparable damage.

[Parsonblue]

11 minutes ago, Lancaster Rover said:

Productivity - All a prem academy has to do is offer a young player 1 minute of game time and they have achieved more than we have since relegation in the eyes of EPPP.

EPPP was designed to allow the big clubs to take players from lower league clubs, the blow was softened/clubs held to ransom by the increased solidarity payments by the Premier League. My Dad was at the FL conference in Portugal where pretty much all the FL clubs were in agreement they were being shafted by the PL but were powerless to do anything as the threat of having the solidarity payments withdrawn would have bankrupted most league 1 & 2 clubs.

League 1 clubs are not wanted under cat 1. That is fact. Unless we make it back to the championship very quickly our academy will suffer irreparable damage.

Totally agree that being in League 1 with cat 1 status was not what the Premier League envisaged when this was drawn up.  The problem is that there are not enough Premier League clubs who meet the cat 1 requirements.  However, with the likes of Burnley improving their youth setup, it may well be that at some point in the not too distant future Burnley take our place at that level.  It would be more difficult to do in the Championship due to the number of Championship clubs with cat 1 status.  Ultimately, I think that raising the bar, in terms of what is required to meet the cat 1 status with regard to facilities is what will ultimately see our downfall from this level.

[JHRover]

52 minutes ago, Lancaster Rover said:

Just looking at the list of Cat 1 clubs, there are only 4 (excluding ourselves) outside of the prem; Reading, Fulham, Derby and Norwich. In fact if the old rules still applied we would have been kicked out of the old 'Premier Reserve League' as you were only allowed 2 seasons in it post relegation.

Cat 2 wise there is Crewe, Colchester, Coventry and Charlton who ply our trade outside of the top 2 divisions. I am very confident in saying that getting relegated to league 1 will have, in the long term a disastrous impact on our academy.

When re-assessed you have to satisfy the 5 criteria of productivity, welfare, education, coaching and facilities.

Productivity - we will struggle if the highest level we can offer is league 1.

Education - most clubs are now funding their scholars through a private education and/or building on site schools, are we? Will Venky's foot the bill for this?

Facilities - Other clubs are constantly investing and developing theirs, are we?

Coaching and welfare we should be able to satisfy but realistically its the 3 I've mentioned above that carry the greatest weight.

Wolves, Sunderland, Middlesbrough and Villa all have Category 1 status and will be outside the Premier League next season. This season Newcastle, and Brighton also had it.

Edited May 31, 2017 by JHRover

[Stuart]

Talk about depressing guys! The academy is the only thing the Raos seem to care about so it's the only thing getting any real attention.

If they have any designs on making money out of it long term then they need to join the dots with the first team success.

Even the Oyston's have two promotions under their belt to go with their three relegations. The Raos only have failure to look back on.

[JHRover]

Like everything else associated with this club what happens in years to come will come down to what our esteemed owners want to do. It won't be the division we are in or the amount of fans turning up or FFP rules that drag us down, it will be a decision from India that funding has to reduce/cease and efforts to achieve that.

No different to any other club. If the owner wants to do it he/she can do.

If the owners want to continue to fund the academy then that is their decision. I'm not going to lavish praise upon them for doing that, not when the infrastructure was nearly all already in place before their arrival and they have benefited to the tune of £20 million+ from selling Phil Jones and Grant Hanley alone directly as a result of the academy status. When you're churning out profits like that on player trading that cash would keep the academy going for another 10 years. Another couple of those lads emerge in that time and it pays for itself handsomely.

Where there's a will there's a way. If they want to do it they can do. If the requirements from Category 1 academies become more difficult to meet, then they could invest in improving facilities to meet the requirements. FFP rules are irrelevant in terms of investing in infrastructure/academy development so they can't hide behind that excuse.

[den]

There is an argument as to whether all the money spent on academies, brings through any more youngsters, or better quality youngsters than when rovers simply had the pitches at Feniscowles or even little Wembley.

[Lancaster Rover]

36 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Wolves, Sunderland, Middlesbrough and Villa all have Category 1 status and will be outside the Premier League next season. This season Newcastle, and Brighton also had it.

They do but then have all been in and out of the prem over the last few years, you're always going to get yoyo clubs which is why the old premier reserve league gave you 2 years grace before booting you out should you not gain promotion. We've not yo yo'd anywhere, we're just sliding toward oblivion.

[Lancaster Rover]

Just now, den said:

There is an argument as to whether all the money spent on academies, brings through any more youngsters, or better quality youngsters than when rovers simply had the pitches at Feniscowles or even little Wembley.

There was definitely higher percentage players who made a career from football, and by career I mean league appearances not financial gain. The figures are skewed though as there were a lot fewer players taken on then. There was also less competition then in terms of first team players from abroad, etc. So clubs were effectively picking from a much smaller pool of players.

[tomphil]

31 minutes ago, den said:

There is an argument as to whether all the money spent on academies, brings through any more youngsters, or better quality youngsters than when rovers simply had the pitches at Feniscowles or even little Wembley.

Well the 2 mill per annum it probably costs to run could make a nice difference invested into the first team at this level for sure. That's why the only reason i see them really persisting with it is to soley replace buying players by fast tracking our own ready or not. Far easier to operate that model in this div than any higher, or so they'll have been 'advised'.

[den]

3 hours ago, Lancaster Rover said:

There was definitely higher percentage players who made a career from football, and by career I mean league appearances not financial gain. The figures are skewed though as there were a lot fewer players taken on then. There was also less competition then in terms of first team players from abroad, etc. So clubs were effectively picking from a much smaller pool of players.

I think my point is that Newton, Douglas, Pickering, Clayton, Ferguson, McEvoy, Harrison, Rogers, Metcalfe, McKenzie, Fazackerley, Field, jones - etc, etc didn't need millions of academy investment behind them, they simply had the talent. 

[chaddyrovers]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/15318715.Three_Academy_graduates_who_could_make_their_breakthrough_for_Rovers_in_League_One_next_season/

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I've not seen much of any of those players especially Rankin-Costello but from what I have seen I like Tomlinson and Doyle. I'd expect both of them to feature next season especially Tomlinson. Doyle looks the part but he's strictly a left back as far as I can see and Williams has the left back shirt at the moment. Maybe a short term loan would do him good if nothing else changes.

[Leyland-Rover]

Taken from the website: Rovers can confirm four pre-season fixtures for the club’s development squad.

Damien Johnson’s side will kick-off their summer schedule against nearby AFC Darwen at the WEC Anchor Ground on Tuesday July 11th, kick-off 7pm.

A Rovers XI will then travel to Ramsbottom United’s Harry Williams Riverside Stadium on Wednesday July 19th (kick-off 7.45pm), before visiting Colne’s Utility Renewals Stadium on Saturday July 22nd (kick-off 3pm).

The development squad’s final friendly sees them take on Marine AFC at the Marine Travel Arena on Saturday July 29th, kick-off 3pm.

 

Im keen to for Darwen away!

Edited June 15, 2017 by Leyland-Rover

[blueboy3333]

5 hours ago, Leyland-Rover said:

 

A Rovers XI will then travel to Ramsbottom United’s Harry Williams Riverside Stadium on Wednesday July 19th (kick-off 7.45pm), before visiting Colne’s Utility Renewals Stadium on Saturday July 22nd (kick-off 3pm).

The development squad’s final friendly sees them take on Marine AFC at the Marine Travel Arena on Saturday July 29th, kick-off 3pm.

 

 

Whatever happened to the beautiful game? 

 

[J*B]

Quick question... if we where to retain cat 1 academy, how @#/? would we need to be until our first team could play our u21s?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

11 hours ago, J*B said:

Quick question... if we where to retain cat 1 academy, how @#/? would we need to be until our first team could play our u21s?

Our u21's could be the first team before too long.