Academy & U21s

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

 Ultimately, if we continue to not give our own lads a chance we might as well shut down the Academy and save £3m a year.  If Harper is played ahead of our own it will help WBA develop their player and in twelve months time he will return to the Hawthorns.  In twelve months a number of our lads will be out of contract and I suspect will look for a club where they will get a fair crack of the whip. 

I agree with the general point, however if he helps us get promoted, that is really the most important thing. 

[blueboy3333]

11 minutes ago, SkipDonoghue said:

Rakeem Harper isn't a bad player for his age....all I'm saying is if he's good enough for Rovers 1st team so are Hardcastle...Tomlinson....Mols...Grayson...Travis....Rankin-Costello....etc

I know what you're saying, we'll just have to see how good Harper is in comparison to our lads.

[JacknOry]

53 minutes ago, Biz said:

It's a bit of an important season to be bedding in so many, I can understand the league experience argument, but you don't get that experience without a chance! Overall, I probably agree and can see why some (including myself) get frustrated seeing us sign Harper, Hart and Downing, when we've already got Tomlinson, Doyle and Wharton. At least Hart is of a decent age and on a permanent transfer.

With Nyambe, Lenihan and Raya still very green, another 2/3 young players in the starting 11, which could be bullied in this league.

I dont think many of us saying to bed all of them at once and besides - we've signed other youngsters of a similar age for the first team and they will playing a part wont they? So its okay to bed in other teams youngsters but not our own.

[JBiz]

7 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

I dont think many of us saying to bed all of them at once and besides - we've signed other youngsters of a similar age for the first team and they will playing a part wont they? So its okay to bed in other teams youngsters but not our own.

Did you read my post? 

[JacknOry]

1 minute ago, Biz said:

Did you read my post? 

Apologies haha - Obviously not as I should have - was just skim reading and have a couple of beers.

[donnermeat]

5 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

There's a quote in today's paper regarding Rashford but it could equally apply to all young players.

" It had taken an injury crisis at United under Van Gaal to thrust Rashford into the first team picture. " It does make you wonder, how many others are there out there ? " added Southgate. " I don't know, but kids need opportunity. When the opportunity presents itself you have to take it. He hasn't looked back, "

So it took an 'injury crisis' for Rashford to get his chance, he was obviously considered ready, or at least more so than any of his teammates, or another player would have gotten in. Fair play to him, Rashford is a special talent though. I'm not averse to giving youngsters a chance, not at all, as long as they are ready and good enough. My post was just why I think Mowbray isn't picking them.

3 hours ago, SkipDonoghue said:

But that's the thing these professional coaches....DD....DJ....are a little bemused as to what's going on....they both apparently told TM he needn't bother with Harper especially as they feel they have better players in the U23s already which are further on in their development and more than ready to be given a chance....it seems they are not being listend to...

And it's not about throwing loads of kids in it's about opportunities for OUR own kids being blocked by a player from another club who is no better.....

when Mahoney left why do you think it happened??.....he was blocked by loan signings from other clubs who shouldn't have been near the club....you will see similar instances as the Mahoney scenario come the end of the season again

our U23s play in a decent standard against top young players higher than the u23s at Bournmouth but clubs like Bournmouth, Burnley, Watford and so on have big budgets running into Millions just for their U23s and don't be surprised if some of our lads are cherry picked by such clubs just to play u23 football especially as they will look and see the pathway to the 1st team blocked by other clubs loaned youngsters

Im not saying our youngsters arent good enough, I dont watch them often enough to determine that. You say our kids are better than Harper and others, that's great, good for you, however that's not something I would have known, nor was it the point I was trying to make.

I'll reiterate what I said above, I have no problem with youngsters being given games, providing they are the best option. My post was just the reason I think they aren't being picked, as I can't really see any other logical reason, other than a decision by the management that they think they're best served where they are for now.

I'm aware of the Mahoney situation thanks. Though I would imagine quadrupling his wages (at a guess) and moving to a Premier League club with one of the top young managers in the country would be an attractive proposition for any young professional, regardless of where you are born.

Edited September 6, 2017 by donnermeat

[SkipDonoghue]

43 minutes ago, donnermeat said:

So it took an 'injury crisis' for Rashford to get his chance, he was obviously considered ready, or at least more so than any of his teammates, or another player would have gotten in. Fair play to him, Rashford is a special talent though. I'm not averse to giving youngsters a chance, not at all, as long as they are ready and good enough. My post was just why I think Mowbray isn't picking them.

Im not saying our youngsters arent good enough, I dont watch them often enough to determine that. You say our kids are better than Harper and others, that's great, good for you, however that's not something I would have known, nor was it the point I was trying to make.

I'll reiterate what I said above, I have no problem with youngsters being given games, providing they are the best option. My post was just the reason I think they aren't being picked, as I can't really see any other logical reason, other than a decision by the management that they think they're best served where they are for now.

I'm aware of the Mahoney situation thanks. Though I would imagine quadrupling his wages (at a guess) and moving to a Premier League club with one of the top young managers in the country would be an attractive proposition for any young professional, regardless of where you are born.

Mahoney wouldn't of even looked to go anywhere if he had been given a chance instead of seeing his pathway blocked by unnecessary loan signings he made his mind up a long time before he finally got a chance in the 1st team to move on and he didn't quadruple his wages he quadrupled them and then some

so it looks like to me you are not aware at all of the Mahoney situation....Thanks

and I haven't said anywhere that our u23s are better than Harper but I did say they are as good if not further on in their development....so to pass judgment I would advise you watch some u23s games instead of spouting uniformed garbage....I hope that's good enough for you 

[donnermeat]

16 minutes ago, SkipDonoghue said:

Mahoney wouldn't of even looked to go anywhere if he had been given a chance instead of seeing his pathway blocked by unnecessary loan signings he made his mind up a long time before he finally got a chance in the 1st team to move on and he didn't quadruple his wages he quadrupled them and then some

so it looks like to me you are not aware at all of the Mahoney situation....Thanks

and I haven't said anywhere that our u23s are better than Harper but I did say they are as good if not further on in their development....so to pass judgment I would advise you watch some u23s games instead of spouting uniformed garbage....I hope that's good enough for you 

Regarding Mahoney's wages, I did say 'at a guess', I'll assume you skimmed that part. Also nowhere did I say that he wasn't unhappy with not getting first team opportunities, nor decrying anyone that said so! I'll assume you made that bit up in your head.

Your post that a quoted said thus: "they both apparently told TM he needn't bother with Harper especially as they feel they have better players in the U23s already which are further on in their development"

"And it's not about throwing loads of kids in it's about opportunities for OUR own kids being blocked by a player from another club who is no better....."

So between those two comments I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that I or anyone else would think that you think (wordy I know) our youngsters are better than Harper and other loanees. Especially the part where you said "OUR own kids being blocked by a player from another club who is no better", now you can make that statement with more validity than me as you've seen our u23's play more than I have, also Harper too, I mean you would have had to seen him play a couple of times at least to come out with that and I will certainly take that opinion on board.

Regarding me "passing judgement" and "spouting uninformed garbage" I said on more than one occasion in my post that I wasn't saying our youngsters aren't good enough, nor that they shouldn't be given game time (providing they are good enough, again I made a point of saying I hadn't seen them enough to pass judgement), which if you read it I was merely coming up with a theory as to why they weren't getting games. Again, I'll assume you skimmed past those bits.

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry, Skip.

 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, SkipDonoghue said:

Mahoney wouldn't of even looked to go anywhere if he had been given a chance instead of seeing his pathway blocked by unnecessary loan signings he made his mind up a long time before he finally got a chance in the 1st team to move on and he didn't quadruple his wages he quadrupled them and then some

so it looks like to me you are not aware at all of the Mahoney situation....Thanks

and I haven't said anywhere that our u23s are better than Harper but I did say they are as good if not further on in their development....so to pass judgment I would advise you watch some u23s games instead of spouting uniformed garbage....I hope that's good enough for you 

How I read that is he would have gone for the dosh no matter how many games he got at Rovers.

[donnermeat]

11 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

How I read that is he would have gone for the dosh no matter how many games he got at Rovers.

I said it would be an attractive proposition Tyrone, which also stated things other than money. I didn't mention game time. I'm sure he was wholly upset and bewildered as to why he wasn't getting the minutes he wanted. 

I'm not even sure why Mahoney has been brought up again, yes there are potential parallels that can happen between now and the end of the season, but only 4 games in I'm not sure how relevant it is at this point.

Edited September 6, 2017 by donnermeat

[roversoutsider]

4 hours ago, SkipDonoghue said:

I know some lads will have clauses with regards to new contracts based on 1st team appearances it's 5 starts and 10 substitute appearances at Rovers it's a generic clause which is just standard with young players contracts it doesn't mean though that it's set in concrete if the players agent pushes for renegotiation he is within his and the players right but most agents will wait for the right moment before diving in as it could affect the players progress 

at Everton it's 1 start in the first team and the contract can be renegotiated...so it changes from club to club

OK so you say the youngsters at our academy have a standard contract where a new contract offer is tabled if they hit 5 starts or 10 sub appearances.

And, Scott Wharton has made 4 starts for us so far. Two in the league and two in the cup. So the rumors of him not being played because it triggers a new contract could actually be true.

[Stuart]

5 hours ago, SkipDonoghue said:

But that's the thing these professional coaches....DD....DJ....are a little bemused as to what's going on....they both apparently told TM he needn't bother with Harper especially as they feel they have better players in the U23s already which are further on in their development and more than ready to be given a chance....it seems they are not being listend to...

And it's not about throwing loads of kids in it's about opportunities for OUR own kids being blocked by a player from another club who is no better.....

when Mahoney left why do you think it happened??.....he was blocked by loan signings from other clubs who shouldn't have been near the club....you will see similar instances as the Mahoney scenario come the end of the season again

our U23s play in a decent standard against top young players higher than the u23s at Bournmouth but clubs like Bournmouth, Burnley, Watford and so on have big budgets running into Millions just for their U23s and don't be surprised if some of our lads are cherry picked by such clubs just to play u23 football especially as they will look and see the pathway to the 1st team blocked by other clubs loaned youngsters

Fans just aren't that interested. You've read yourself - if something happens or doesn't happen it's because they aren't good enough.

Even worse when a derisory contract (or even a reasonable one) is put in front of them and they don't fancy two more years of the same lack of progression they'll be labelled mercenaries who "were never really that good anyway".

I genuinely blame agents though. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some players that we do want come with a "yeah, but you'll need to take this other player on loan too". I'm convinced that it's more importabt to put an agencies stable players in the shop window than academy lads with the wrong agent. I can't believe NONE of our current lads at the top of PL2 are good enough.

All that said, there's not much point in bringing through players to pay them a bonus and stick them on the bench, never to get game time. Sadly, it will take an injury crisis for the next player to get through.

[JacknOry]

55 minutes ago, roversoutsider said:

OK so you say the youngsters at our academy have a standard contract where a new contract offer is tabled if they hit 5 starts or 10 sub appearances.

And, Scott Wharton has made 4 starts for us so far. Two in the league and two in the cup. So the rumors of him not being played because it triggers a new contract could actually be true.

Might be on to something there

[islander200]

41 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Fans just aren't that interested. You've read yourself - if something happens or doesn't happen it's because they aren't good enough.

Even worse when a derisory contract (or even a reasonable one) is put in front of them and they don't fancy two more years of the same lack of progression they'll be labelled mercenaries who "were never really that good anyway".

I genuinely blame agents though. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some players that we do want come with a "yeah, but you'll need to take this other player on loan too". I'm convinced that it's more importabt to put an agencies stable players in the shop window than academy lads with the wrong agent. I can't believe NONE of our current lads at the top of PL2 are good enough.

All that said, there's not much point in bringing through players to pay them a bonus and stick them on the bench, never to get game time. Sadly, it will take an injury crisis for the next player to get through.

We have our own fans labelling Harper brilliant without ever seeing him kick a ball.Its madness.

Nothing beats seeing a young player coming through the system and cementing their place in the first 11.In my opinion anyway.

I just think its sad we are bringing in a young player from West Bromwich when we have our own talented youngsters.No long term planning.It's being said that Mowbray must not think our group are ready.How can he know Harper is ready when he has played hardly any senior football.

Like Parson said our talented group could all break through but it won't be with us.When they leave after becoming frustrated at a lack of chances I won't blame them one bit

[bazza]

7 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

I would have thought it obvious and others have heard the same.  This is the best crop of youngsters we've had since the likes of Dunny, Johnson, Duff, Taylor, Douglas were all coming through.  I suspect that these lads will eventually come through and enjoy good careers but, sadly, not at Ewood Park.  

 

6 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

 Ultimately, if we continue to not give our own lads a chance we might as well shut down the Academy and save £3m a year.  If Harper is played ahead of our own it will help WBA develop their player and in twelve months time he will return to the Hawthorns.  In twelve months a number of our lads will be out of contract and I suspect will look for a club where they will get a fair crack of the whip. 

Those two posts make me feel so sad.  Bringing young players through the youth team to the first team was Uncle Jack's dream; his main intention for the continuity and sustainability of the club.

[Mattyblue]

Seems bizarre to keep Cat 1 status and then not be actively looking to blood the one's that are good enough.

The likes of Lenihan and Nyambe were only given a chance through injury and are now pivotal members of the first team squad.. indeed Lenihan now has a decent price on his head - Venky's whole raison d'etre for keeping Cat 1 is surely for selling on for a tidy sum.

Is it down to Mowbray (and generally today's managers) who know they are one bad run away from the sack? And in Mowbray's case, possibly one bad run away from ever managing at a decent level again - ergo no trust in youth players.

 

[blueboy3333]

35 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

ergo no trust in youth players

Who would you blood? Are any of the youth team players better than what's in the 1st team? And if he's no trust in youth team players then why has he signed Harper and Chapman?  The Harper signing seems an odd one though, unless he is one of those all action box-to-box type midfielders we don't have.

[mhead]

And the answer to all this....Josh Morris. rated the best player in League 1(bit like that Brentford/Rovers Apprentice we never gave a chance)

If we were in the PL I could understand it. Question for Oct 5th Consultation(?) meeting?

[Bigdoggsteel]

31 minutes ago, mhead said:

And the answer to all this....Josh Morris. rated the best player in League 1(bit like that Brentford/Rovers Apprentice we never gave a chance)

If we were in the PL I could understand it. Question for Oct 5th Consultation(?) meeting?

I wouldn't agree with that. At the end of the day it is the managers choice who he plays/signs/releases/sells. He shouldn't be forced into including young players if he doesn't think they are good enough, regardless of what we all think about them. 

[tomphil]

Bonus side is the longer these lot stay together at U23 they become a stronger unit. No surprise that I fully expect the contract situations to be holding some back given who has been hovering up the kids for years according to some. God knows what's written in their deals and it probably turns out cheaper to borrow kids whose clubs are sending them for next to nothing.

I do think though that miss out on promotion this season and we'll be seeing most of the U23s at first team level soon enough.

[Mike E]

3 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

Who would you blood? Are any of the youth team players better than what's in the 1st team? And if he's no trust in youth team players then why has he signed Harper and Chapman?  The Harper signing seems an odd one though, unless he is one of those all action box-to-box type midfielders we don't have.

I think the answer is to blood the ones in positions we need by having them ready on the bench:

Lb (assuming Williams is now moved to centre back): Hart and Doyle should battle for it.

Cb: Wharton has already had some games, not a big leap to blood him in.

Cm: Tomlinson as a sub for Evans or Smallwood.

St: Nuttall.

Cases can be made for many others, but I'd go with those. 

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Mike E said:

I think the answer is to blood the ones in positions we need by having them ready on the bench:

Lb (assuming Williams is now moved to centre back): Hart and Doyle should battle for it.

Cb: Wharton has already had some games, not a big leap to blood him in.

Cm: Tomlinson as a sub for Evans or Smallwood.

St: Nuttall.

Cases can be made for many others, but I'd go with those. 

Agree with those but it's not what I meant by 'blooding' them. I meant who is good enough to go straight into the 1st team? It's ok saying they are a great crop of youngsters but that doesn't mean they are good enough for League 1. Mowbray has to get results, that has to be his priority.

[Mike E]

1 minute ago, blueboy3333 said:

Agree with those but it's not what I meant by 'blooding' them. I meant who is good enough to go straight into the 1st team? It's ok saying they are a great crop of youngsters but that doesn't mean they are good enough for League 1. Mowbray has to get results, that has to be his priority.

In that case, I would say Tomlinson in the middle (instead of Evans), Nuttall up front alongside Samuel, and either Hart or Doyle in place of Williams at lb.

The cbs, I'm a little unsure of because we are already a bit weak there and it may be that the partnership (Wharton and Platt) is better than placing either individual alongside Mulgrew.

Then again, a back 4 of Nyambe, Wharton, Platt, Doyle would have no excuses in terms of chemistry

[blueboy3333]

12 minutes ago, Mike E said:

In that case, I would say Tomlinson in the middle (instead of Evans), Nuttall up front alongside Samuel, and either Hart or Doyle in place of Williams at lb.

The cbs, I'm a little unsure of because we are already a bit weak there and it may be that the partnership (Wharton and Platt) is better than placing either individual alongside Mulgrew.

Then again, a back 4 of Nyambe, Wharton, Platt, Doyle would have no excuses in terms of chemistry

Williams place is certainly up for grabs at left back. Nuttall too must be in with a chance instead of Antonsson. Evans doesn't deserve dropping bot Tomlinson does seem to be the same kind of midfield schemer. He should certainly get a chance at some point.  Dropping Mulgrew to accommodate a youth team CB partnership? Not sure I'd go that far

[JAL]

16 hours ago, roversoutsider said:

 

Mowbray and his backroom team should know who the weaker teams are in this league thus knowing when and where to blood the under 23's with a mix of first team regulars.

Somehow though doubt this very much judging his actions so far and the fact that certain people get money whilst others don't I.e. Nyambe v Wharton.

Edited September 7, 2017 by JAL