Academy & U21s

[Sparks Rover]

40 minutes ago, rigger said:

Didn't Carr end up being a good bit of business by the Rovers. Wasn't it mentioned that Carrs father (also his agent), didn't see eye to eye with Uncle Jack.

Surely different eras....Carr was when I was very young, Jack came along a bit after, no?

Would it have been Bill Fox?

[rigger]

4 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Surely different eras....Carr was when I was very young, Jack came along a bit after, no?

Would it have been Bill Fox?

You are right about Uncle Jack being later. It may have been Bill Fox, I just seem to remember Carrs dad seemed to cause a bit of tension with someone at the Rovers. I may be completely wrong.  

[riverholmes]

1 hour ago, RoverCanada said:

Soccerway seems to be the best source for getting lower league/cup appearances (and bench) data. They also collect u23/academy stats: https://uk.soccerway.com/players/jack-vale/460620/ Appears those FA Cup/FA Trophy goals were during the 'qualifying' rounds, so maybe don't show up elsewhere.

Yeah, I won't be counting on McBride... His PL2 scoring rate halved from 0.71/90 to 0.34/90 as Burns seemingly surpassed him. I suspect whatever L1/L2 interest faded accordingly. Got a start for his first Queen's Park game at least (and it's a step up from his Scottish League 2 loan a few years ago 🙂), but agreed it's a bad sign. I imagine we'll still take up the option, depending how the loan goes.

Re: lower-level loans, it's case-by-case, but I suspect it's more youngsters (and their agents) pushing for starts but getting 'found out' in men's football rather than a sudden loss in confidence dooming their development. Maybe you hold out for L1/L2 loans, but then they risk getting stuck on the bench (as we've seen with Vale, Magloire, Fisher)

Sam Burns looks like a good example of impressing during a brief lower league loan to help secure him starting football at a L2 side. Dan Pike is maybe a questionable loan this year, but I think he also had some poorly timed injuries (and he's now getting starts every week at least). It's different for GKers, but I imagine Hilton's getting some great experience starting every game for Hamilton, even if it's only the Scottish Championship.

I guess it depends on your opinion of Johnson/Nyambe as makeshift CBs, but I'm not as concerned as about our CB depth, particularly if taking into account allocating an apparently tight budget. I'm quite happy with Carter getting another L1 loan, where he's getting starts and apparently impressing so far (looked good when I caught 20min of a Portsmouth game last week), following in Wharton's footsteps. We kept him around when needed to start the year (10 apps ain't too shabby), but he hadn't even made the bench since early Nov.

I very much doubt that four or so games and a few goals for FC United convinced Scunthorpe to take Burns on loan. I think these month-long non-league loans of U23 star players are wrong-headed by the club and risks damaging confidence. A brief non-league spell is hardly the stability for a player to get time to adapt to a very different style of play. At least give the player half or a full season option. Ideally, for a U23 regular and high performer, wait for the transfer window for League 1 or 2 club.

Vale's loan at Halifax was, notably, half a season, giving him, at least, some meaningful time to adapt. It also gave him time to return from an ankle injury to play for them. Had it been a month, he'd have been back with barely having played much - a bit like Dan Pike earlier in the season. The one-month loans are, I think, an absurdity - except for, perhaps, U18s, who are there to soak up the atmosphere rather than really play - or, perhaps, players who are heading out the door and are scratching around for clubs. 

McBride's form tailed off and he even lost his place in the U23 team. However, he was a top performer last season and was nominated for the U23 player of the season. He was not an out and out striker for the U23s and a number of his goals were penalties. He did assist a few for Burns, from what a recall and managed 12 goals in total. He looked a confident player when he appeared for the first team in pre-season. At least this Queen's Park loan spell, albeit, a low standard, will give him a run of games to try to prove himself.

Even if he does well in that league, I am not sure Rovers will keep him. My feeling is that, given that he was benched often by Mike Sheron, the management don't rate him as highly as others (as with many of the last batch of U23s) and are looking to the next cohort from the U18s. I think it would be a mistake not to persevere with him, given his initial impact, but we'll wait to see what happens.

Edited February 8, 2022 by riverholmes

[oldjamfan1]

5 hours ago, rigger said:

You are right about Uncle Jack being later. It may have been Bill Fox, I just seem to remember Carrs dad seemed to cause a bit of tension with someone at the Rovers. I may be completely wrong.  

I seem to recall that it was indeed Bill Fox. Franz Carr was selected as an apprentice at Ewood ahead of my younger brother, Rovers only took one or two on every year at that time and they could only afford one that season. Franz’s dad was a bit pushier than mine! 
(joking apart Franz was an exceptional player at 16 and even our kid understood why he’d been selected).

[Sparks Rover]

1 hour ago, oldjamfan1 said:

 Rovers only took one or two on every year at that time 

Correct.  Just makes you wonder why they bother with all this carry on with squads for U18s, 23s etc these days...all that money wasted 

[bluebruce]

41 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Correct.  Just makes you wonder why they bother with all this carry on with squads for U18s, 23s etc these days...all that money wasted 

No, it doesn't make me wonder about that at all.

[Sparks Rover]

2 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

No, it doesn't make me wonder about that at all.

Do you not think Bucko would be here irrespective of us having U8-u16s etc....?

[bluebruce]

3 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Do you not think Bucko would be here irrespective of us having U8-u16s etc....?

No, because he has been here since he was 8 or something? If we had no teams at that age group, someone else would have had him years ago.

[Spartakfenni]

22 hours ago, rigger said:

Didn't Carr end up being a good bit of business by the Rovers. Wasn't it mentioned that Carrs father (also his agent), didn't see eye to eye with Uncle Jack.

As has been clarified this was before Jack took over. I don’t know how you could say it was a good bit of business. Yes we got money for him, but yet again not his true worth if he’d played for the first team and was putting in the performances he did when he moved to Forest. Sell you, sell cheap, at least with Jones as a first team regular we got nearer his market value.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Great to see Dack get his run out the other night. Sad to think he has missed so much time. What a story if he contributes some crucial goals to our promotion campaign 

[rigger]

44 minutes ago, Spartakfenni said:

As has been clarified this was before Jack took over. I don’t know how you could say it was a good bit of business. Yes we got money for him, but yet again not his true worth if he’d played for the first team and was putting in the performances he did when he moved to Forest. Sell you, sell cheap, at least with Jones as a first team regular we got nearer his market value.

It ended up a good bit of business, because Carr fell well short of his potential.

[bluebruce]

Loan watch, Hayden Carter:

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/how-is-hayden-carter-getting-on-since-leaving-blackburn-rovers-in-january/?fbclid=IwAR2q8IlYP5PyugADeIoCLnlw9b6w_pFXau0FVyNp3MptZoS8tFSS6g-D7ws

[47er]

On 06/02/2022 at 21:25, ben_the_beast said:

Certainly hoping this pre contract isn't a deal for just a couple of years like the majority of our young players get. If he's as good as everybody says he is from a financial point of view we need to protect our asset. Look at what Dortmund paid for Bellingham. And now he's being touted around for double to triple what they paid. 

We really need to get him signed asap and then he/we can allow him to develop at a pace which is right for him when moving into our first team. 

I truly think it's completely unfair that the 'super clubs' can swoop in for players before they turn 17. What happened with Fulham and Harvey Elliott would have my blood boiling. What did they get in tribunal... about £7million? For a player that is worth at least £30m a couple of years later and that figure is only increasing. Probably not possible as its restricting players rights to movement but I do think it should be outlawed in some way.

Hopefully the rumblings of this 'pre-contract' are true. 

And hopefully this site has it completely wrong!

https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-man-united-in-pole-position-to-sign-ashley-phillips-ahead-of-chelsea-tottenham-and-everton/

[Sparks Rover]

22 minutes ago, 47er said:

And hopefully this site has it completely wrong!

https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-man-united-in-pole-position-to-sign-ashley-phillips-ahead-of-chelsea-tottenham-and-everton/

It's a tough choice.....become a millionaire,  or to not become a millionaire...🤔

If we can get some attachments to the deal with sell on clause, money to us if he gets a full cap etc...

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sparks Rover

[Bigdoggsteel]

Not all about money, look at Phil Jones and Conor Mahoney. 

He could be better off waiting til he has cut his teeth here and then move and challenge for a starting spot at a big club, not get lost with all the under age talent they sign. 

[lraC]

10 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

It's a tough choice.....become a millionaire,  or to not become a millionaire...🤔

If we can get some attachments to the deal with sell on clause, money to us if he gets a full cap etc...

I think Rich Sharpe has said that we have him on a 4 or maybe 5 year contract.

As a fan, I would much rather see him in the first team and get at least 2-3 seasons from him, before selling him for big money. If we do sell him before he makes the first team though, hopefully it will still be for big money.

Edited February 11, 2022 by lraC

[Sparks Rover]

18 minutes ago, lraC said:

I think Rich Sharpe has said that we have him on a 4 or maybe 5 year contract.

As a fan, I would much rather see him in the first team and get at least 2-3 seasons from him, before selling him for big money. If we do sell him before he makes the first team though, hopefully it will still be for big money.

If they want him, he's gone.  Irrespective of the contract he has, we will get peanuts.  Is he actually a professional yet?  Lucky to get half a million here.

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, Sparks Rover said:

If they want him, he's gone.  Irrespective of the contract he has, we will get peanuts.  Is he actually a professional yet?  Lucky to get half a million here.

I don't think there is any possibility of the club selling him for half a million any time soon. We aren't obliged to sell cheap just because somebody wants him, if he is under a lengthy contract.

[Sparks Rover]

55 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

I don't think there is any possibility of the club selling him for half a million any time soon. We aren't obliged to sell cheap just because somebody wants him, if he is under a lengthy contract.

If he wants out and his parents want him out, he's out....I've see it loads of times right down the ages.  As an example...Ashley Fletcher. Was on a lengthy contract as a youth player at notiob , his dad wanted him out and at utd....that's exactly what happened.  They play silly sods, don't go training...in the end the club is forced to sell...as he is only 16/17 a tribunal will only give us a relatively small amount

[bluebruce]

1 hour ago, Sparks Rover said:

If he wants out and his parents want him out, he's out....I've see it loads of times right down the ages.  As an example...Ashley Fletcher. Was on a lengthy contract as a youth player at notiob , his dad wanted him out and at utd....that's exactly what happened.  They play silly sods, don't go training...in the end the club is forced to sell...as he is only 16/17 a tribunal will only give us a relatively small amount

And if we want 10 million and they're offering 500k, I'm 100% confident the club wouldn't give a fuck what his parents want. At least not until the offer is far, far closer to the demand.

It won't go to tribunal for years, as, again, he is under contract. Youth contract for now, pro contract agreed to start as soon as he is 17.

Fletcher moved to Manure when he was 13. It's a completely different scenario. Far easier for players to move at that age.

[Sparks Rover]

4 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

And if we want 10 million and they're offering 500k, I'm 100% confident the club wouldn't give a fuck what his parents want. At least not until the offer is far, far closer to the demand.

It won't go to tribunal for years, as, again, he is under contract. Youth contract for now, pro contract agreed to start as soon as he is 17.

Fletcher moved to Manure when he was 13. It's a completely different scenario. Far easier for players to move at that age.

You're keeping someone who doesn't want to be here are you? 👍 won't happen.  If he wants out, he's gone.

[bluebruce]

58 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

You're keeping someone who doesn't want to be here are you? 👍 won't happen.  If he wants out, he's gone.

If the price isn't even close to met, absolutely. It happens all the time Sparks, come on.

You honestly think if for example Diaz wants to go in the summer, and no club will pay more than 1 million, we would sell him for 1 million? Because you're just wrong.

[Sparks Rover]

48 minutes ago, bluebruce said:

If the price isn't even close to met, absolutely. It happens all the time Sparks, come on.

You honestly think if for example Diaz wants to go in the summer, and no club will pay more than 1 million, we would sell him for 1 million? Because you're just wrong.

Bit of a silly example Bruce.  Relatively we might get half a million for the lad.  That would be a good result if he does want to go.

[bluebruce]

14 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Bit of a silly example Bruce.  Relatively we might get half a million for the lad.  That would be a good result if he does want to go.

It's not a silly example. It highlights how silly your statements are. If we value the kid in the multimillions, we aren't going to sell him for half a mill, because it would be nowhere near our valuation. The point is that, like we won't with BBD, we won't sell an asset at a paltry fraction of our valuation just because the player wants out.

It all depends what the club values him at at this stage, and given how highly he is being talked about I'd be gobsmacked if we sold him for less than 2-3 mill even if he wanted out, and our valuation is likely a lot more. Moreover those top clubs have more than enough money to pay millions and if they see him as the next big thing won't simply stop bargaining once 500k doesn't work. We would be utter morons to accept that kind of offer.

[briansol]

51 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Bit of a silly example Bruce.  Relatively we might get half a million for the lad.  That would be a good result if he does want to go.

Never in a million years he'll go for 500k, which is not a good result at all. Even in League One we had a similar case with Callum Wright to Leicester which went for 1 mill. 

Jude Bellingham was on a pre-contract being only 16 and got sold for 20-30 mill. Granted Phillips will not be as much, but given his England credentials, pre-contract, U23 captaincy the club should have no problem arguing a case.