[Archived] Extra ! Extra ! Read All About It !

[Dean]

Er don't swear at me I have not sworn at you !!

Oh come on, are you genuinely offended by that word? I'm pretty sure you're not! What you're writing is deliberately provocative, if I wanted to be offensive I'd use stronger language than p***!

I was pretty shaken up by that shooting last year, it was literally 30 seconds from my apartment and I had to walk past it (and the subsequent armed police) every day following.

I'm entitled to be annoyed by your "Just let them murder innocents" rubbish. People give you well reasoned arguments and you just come back with childish stuff like that. It's insulting.

[Amo]

Don't start taking the p****, nobody has said that.

That's Abbey's debating 'technique' all over. You can't have a rational discussion with the bloke.

[jim mk2]

Exactly. I doubt this war against Islamic terrorism will ever end. Last week it was referred to as a "major blow" for the terrorists when one of the major figures behind the latest Paris attacks was caught. Really it made no difference just like Osama Bin Laden's death hasn't destroyed Al-Qaeda.

Some people may simplify the situation (probably most Sun readers) but you can't just "stop" these people or use the same methods that ended WW1/WW2.

It will end because all wars end (even the 100 years war), usually through exhaustion or because of generational change. The fight against terrorism is different to any other because the advent of the internet and other technologies has made it a global problem that is being planned and executed by unknown and unseen people often from the comfort of their own homes. Guns and soldiers on the streets won't solve anything.

[T J Hooker]

Er don't swear at me I have not sworn at you !!

And TJ even I wouldn't mock the venkys on a thread that today is about terrorism and murders . That's probably the worst post you have done .

Sorry but you're just being ridiculous now.

(I've made far far worst posts in the past😜)

[ABBEY]

Glad you can joke about terrorism .

[joey_big_nose]

Its about keeping proportion. The police are doing a fantastic job I think striking a balance between security and maintaining freedoms.

Undoubtedly there will be an attack in the UK at some point - probably in London where I live - and dozens will be killed. We need to do everything we can to minimise the risk, but I dont think hanging or curfews or any of that will impact the likelihood.

It also remains far far far far more likely you will be killed in a carcrash than a terrorist attack. Its important to keep perspective and be brave in the face of intimidation.

Thoughts go out to those in Brussles.

[T J Hooker]

Glad you can joke about terrorism .

Jeeez man, I haven't said a word about terrorism,

But if you want my two pennies worth I'd say that for as long as people react the way that you do every time terrorists rear their head then they will always be winning. They're trying to provoke civil unrest and chaos and that's precisely what they'd achieve if your recommendations where followed through with.

Keep calm and carry on (and all that!)

(I'll have a peppermint tea if you're brewing up)

[K-Hod]

Ok I get it .. Just let them murder innocents and sit back and do nothing .

Hang on a minute, nobody has said that have they? They said they didn't have a solution as far as I can see.

[Audax]

The police in England/UK are uncovering plots and making arrests all the time, well, pretty often.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35862598

Know he's not everyone's favourite person but a lot of good comments from Blair here. I'm generally one of the first to say lets get boots on the ground to wipe out IS, give the state semi-draconian powers to root out domestic terrorists, proscribe ultra-harsh jail terms to anyone convicted of the slightest terrorist activity. Basically stop worrying about offending people and tackle the problem head on.

But Blair's somewhat convinced me in that article that the only way to kill religious extremism is to win the information war as it were. And I totally agree with him that to do that all political parties need to start flexing their ideological muscles, stop acting as though there's something wrong with western values, and stop tolerating intolerance.

Cameron warned about the dangers of Madrasas last year.The Trojan Horse episode brought the dangers of faith schools into the public forum and its about time a strong call was made to scrap them entirely. Controlling what is said in Mosques/Churches is another level of difficulty but should still be attempted. And then the other major source of the poisonous views that lead to extremism is the parents/families of kids. Unfortunately there's nothing to be done about that in the short term, but in the long-term hearing a different message from everyone else should at least lead to a trend towards tolerance and moderate beliefs.

[Audax]

No one was being critical of the police per se earlier in the thread, Belgium is looked at though as being the weak link in the Paris attacks; that one neighbourhood is where these things seemed to be planned and this one terrorist hid out until he was arrested the other day.

[Dean]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35862598

Know he's not everyone's favourite person but a lot of good comments from Blair here. I'm generally one of the first to say lets get boots on the ground to wipe out IS, give the state semi-draconian powers to root out domestic terrorists, proscribe ultra-harsh jail terms to anyone convicted of the slightest terrorist activity. Basically stop worrying about offending people and tackle the problem head on.

But Blair's somewhat convinced me in that article that the only way to kill religious extremism is to win the information war as it were. And I totally agree with him that to do that all political parties need to start flexing their ideological muscles, stop acting as though there's something wrong with western values, and stop tolerating intolerance.

Cameron warned about the dangers of Madrasas last year.The Trojan Horse episode brought the dangers of faith schools into the public forum and its about time a strong call was made to scrap them entirely. Controlling what is said in Mosques/Churches is another level of difficulty but should still be attempted. And then the other major source of the poisonous views that lead to extremism is the parents/families of kids. Unfortunately there's nothing to be done about that in the short term, but in the long-term hearing a different message from everyone else should at least lead to a trend towards tolerance and moderate beliefs.

I'll digest the rest of that later, but this idea of being intolerant of intolerance is exactly what I was getting at when we talked about the Trump demonstrations in Chicago. People were demonstrating against his intolerance towards certain others (namely Mexicans and Muslims).

In principle I completely agree, I've always thought the only thing people should be intolerant of is intolerance itself. But that can't be selective, it's a blanket rule that works for all sides.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I'll digest the rest of that later, but this idea of being intolerant of intolerance is exactly what I was getting at when we talked about the Trump demonstrations in Chicago. People were demonstrating against his intolerance towards certain others (namely Mexicans and Muslims).

In principle I completely agree, I've always thought the only thing people should be intolerant of is intolerance itself. But that can't be selective, it's a blanket rule that works for all sides.

Depends how you define intolerance. Trump wants a temporary ban on Muslim immigration and an effective method for ending illegal immigration from Mexico. Is that being intolerant of those 2 groups? He's not advocating any different treatment to Muslims or Mexicans currently living in America, or in the way the US as a country deals with Mexico or Muslim countries on the international level. Islamic extremists on the other hand want to forcibly convert or kill everyone on the planet who isn't a Sunni Muslim. That is definitive intolerance, Trump's is at worst a grey area.

When are the Chicago protestors holding their anti-Islamic extremism march/protest by the way? If we can't be selective then surely its about time that the same amount of effort was devoted to expressing anger towards right-wing Muslims as is devoted towards right-wing Christians/Atheists/Jews. Or maybe we can be selective depending on who is the easy/fashionable target.

[Dean]

Depends how you define intolerance. Trump wants a temporary ban on Muslim immigration and an effective method for ending illegal immigration from Mexico. Is that being intolerant of those 2 groups? He's not advocating any different treatment to Muslims or Mexicans currently living in America, or in the way the US as a country deals with Mexico or Muslim countries on the international level. Islamic extremists on the other hand want to forcibly convert or kill everyone on the planet who isn't a Sunni Muslim. That is definitive intolerance, Trump's is at worst a grey area.

When are the Chicago protestors holding their anti-Islamic extremism march/protest by the way? If we can't be selective then surely its about time that the same amount of effort was devoted to expressing anger towards right-wing Muslims as is devoted towards right-wing Christians/Atheists/Jews. Or maybe we can be selective depending on who is the easy/fashionable target.

I don't know if there are any Islamic extremists in Chicago, but I would hope there would protests if there were.

Maybe we should just all be generally more intolerant of intolerance. It probably is the case that the left (of which I'll happily admit to be part of) focus more on intolerance towards outside/minority groups, whereas the right tend to focus on intolerance within those groups.

If we could all be equally intolerant of the whole bloody lot we'd live in a much better place!

[davulsukur]

Islamic State have taken responsibility for the attack, hardly surprising but still.

Shocking stuff, i genuinely cannot believe the human race is still fighting religious wars after all these years.

I guess we will never learn.

[Audax]

Wow, the possible culprits picture is being posted at drudge report:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeKefARW8AETeT7.jpg

These pitiful people if these are the ones, I don't want to give them attention of actually posting their picture. It's just the story is coming together now some.

http://www.drudgereport.com/

[Mike E]

Want to stop terrorists? Or mass murderers or serial murderers in general?

STOP MAKING THEM FAMOUS ON THE NEWS! Just give attention to the victims!

[Steve Moss]

Abbey would like us to declare martial law and have stormtroopers lining the streets.

I'd rather run the risk of terrorism than lose more and more of my civil liberties.

Wow. You're sounding like a Second Amendment supporter.

How do you fight an unseen enemy?

Cut off their source of re-supply of troops (no more immigration until they are fully vetted).

Break up homogeneous communities which become "no-go" zones.

Limit benefits to immigrants and require work. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

Limit due process rights of immigrants.

Make immigrant's citizenship/residency easily revocable and subject to expeditious deportation, on mere reasonable suspicion of criminal activity and/or religious extremism.

[jim mk2]

Wow. You're sounding like a Second Amendment supporter.

Cut off their source of re-supply of troops (no more immigration until they are fully vetted).

Break up homogeneous communities which become "no-go" zones.

Limit benefits to immigrants and require work. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

Limit due process rights of immigrants.

Make immigrant's citizenship/residency easily revocable and subject to expeditious deportation, on mere reasonable suspicion of criminal activity and/or religious extremism.

Blame the immigrants. The traditional view of a white, middle class right of centre male.

Conveniently forgetting that many terrorists are home grown.

Or perhaps all dark skinned people with funny clothes and fuzzy hair should be locked up because they look foreign ?

[Steve Moss]

Blame the immigrants. The traditional view of a white, middle class right of centre male.

Conveniently forgetting that many terrorists are home grown.

Or perhaps all dark skinned people with funny clothes and fuzzy hair should be locked up because they look foreign ?

It's called containing the problem, Jim.

I think what I proposed is common sense. Immigrants are not entitled to citizenship or residency. They are guests. And if they disrupt the house, the host is free to show them the door.

If they don't disrupt the house, then they are free to continue their visit. That's good manners. But good manners is a two way street.

As to home grown terrorists, it is a problem The first thing we need to do is acknowledge that in addition to being terrorists, they are also traitors. And traitors should be hung by the neck until dead.

[jim mk2]

It's called containing the problem, Jim.

I think what I proposed is common sense. Immigrants are not entitled to citizenship or residency. They are guests. And if they disrupt the house, the host is free to show them the door.

If they don't disrupt the house, then they are free to continue their visit. That's good manners. But good manners is a two way street.

As to home grown terrorists, it is a problem The first thing we need to do is acknowledge that in addition to being terrorists, they are also traitors. And traitors should be hung by the neck until dead.

Once immigrants have been granted citizenship they aren't guests or visitors - they are they are residents of that country. And to repeat and as you have acknowledged, most terrorists are home grown - so immigrants aren't the problem anyway. Traitors were hung until the mid 20th century. Civilised countries have moved on since then.

[Dean]

As to home grown terrorists, it is a problem

Don't start wars for oil.

Don't bomb innocent civilians.

Don't operate torturous detention camps.

Not that it will ever happen, but you could add hanging to that list of things that make the situation far worse if it did.

[Audax]

Want to stop terrorists? Or mass murderers or serial murderers in general?

STOP MAKING THEM FAMOUS ON THE NEWS! Just give attention to the victims!

Call Scotland Yard, that will solve it.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Don't start wars for oil.

Don't bomb innocent civilians.

Don't operate torturous detention camps.

Not that it will ever happen, but you could add hanging to that list of things that make the situation far worse if it did.

The worst attack of this type, 9/11, preceded the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and Guantanamo Bay. The West aren't victims of their own making, they are victims of not being hardline Sunni Muslim, just as the Pakistan army, Nigerian christians, Syrian minority groups, India, China etc etc are. These attacks aren't retaliation, they are the punishment meated out to all who don't follow medieval Islam. Seeing as even the most staunch advocates of a pacifist appeasement approach to the Middle East don't intend to take the UK down the route of reverting to a dark age Saudi Arabia, we'd have been every bit at risk of Islamic extremism now regardless of our foreign policy in modern times.

[Audax]

Don't start wars for oil.

Don't bomb innocent civilians.

Don't operate torturous detention camps.

Not that it will ever happen, but you could add hanging to that list of things that make the situation far worse if it did.

Belgium did all that? Got it.