Venkys London Ltd accounts

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

So we are to be indebted to our great owners for their generosity to our financial position?....a situation totally of their own making

We are in total Limbo as a club,going nowhere,this could carry on for years.

Frustration.

[JHRover]

24 minutes ago, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

So we are to be indebted to our great owners for their generosity to our financial position?....a situation totally of their own making

We are in total Limbo as a club,going nowhere,this could carry on for years.

Frustration.

The only real difference between ourselves and other owners at other clubs is the way Venkys have decided to 'fund' the club.

Comparing for example to Cardiff, or Hull, or Fulham, who have been dependent on rich owners but those owners have done things differently.

If Venkys had written their debts off, which most owners would have done, then I think people would feel a whole lot better about our situation, even though our losses are still significant.

The reason for most of the horror stories in the press is this £100 and odd million 'debt' figure that never goes down, only up, and Venkys appear to have no intention of writing off or reducing.

They aren't getting that money back until we survive in the Premier League for many years and they siphon off some of that income each year. That money has gone and has been paid to cover their errors and negligence over 8 years. Once you incur the cost you have to shoulder that cost. No different really to buying a new car or house on borrowed money.

Clearly for one reason or another the way they want or are being advised to do it is by heaping millions a year onto the debt mountain with no repayments ever being made.

I think it was Fulham who owed Al Fayed hundreds of millions for his investment over the years, so he may well have operated along similar lines. Clearly he was never going to get all that back either so walked away from most of it.

[tomphil]

Prime real estate in a tourist town might be the added attraction there.

Thee'd be plenty interested in Rovers and plenty who could afford the present running costs BUT the Vs would have to take the loans away with them and write off all but about 25 million of share capital.

?

[Vinjay]

On 27/03/2019 at 14:01, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

So we are to be indebted to our great owners for their generosity to our financial position?....a situation totally of their own making

We are in total Limbo as a club,going nowhere,this could carry on for years.

Frustration.

Thanks to UEFA majority of clubs are in limbo bad owners or not. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Vinjay17

[philipl]

Dingles made £36.6m profit last year.

[old darwen blue]

That’ll keep their directors happy.  

[tomphil]

Burnley must be a rarity these days if they are paying the manager more than the players.

[PLJPB]

Another share injection to Venkys London was filed today at Companies House for £1.5m taking the total injected by the Raos to £165m.

There was some disagreement earlier in the thread about how much they had put in - £250m? - but below is my calculation for my belief that it is now £165m. (Its still a hell of a lot of money whether its £250m or £165m!

BRFC (the club) share capital before takeover was £134m (the total cash that Jack pumped in). This was after Jack converted all his loans to share capital.

The initial investment by the Raos into Venkys London Ltd (VLL) in late 2010 was £35m. £25m of this was paid to the Walker family to buy the club with £10m left over to pay off the overdraft (effectively they paid £25m cash for the full £134m of share capital).

This remaining £10m was used to increase the BRFC share capital to £144m in Dec 2010 so that it could presumably be used by BRFC to pay off the overdraft.

There was a further share purchase by VLL on Dec 2015 of 3m taking the total BRFC share capital to £147m which it remains at to this day.

Since the original £35m start up capital in VLL the Raos have put in another £130m taking the total to the £165m I mentioned at the beginning of this (rather long!) post.

All but the Dec 2015 £3m of this I would summise has been loaned to BRFC to keep the club running.

The summary is that the Raos have spent a total of £165m of which £25 + 10 + 3 = £38m was the purchase price and share capital with the remaining £165 - 38 = £127m being a repayable loan from VLL to BRFC which they do not receive interest on but technically could still ask the club to repay. Or they could do what Jack did and convert it all to share capital.

Sorry for the length of the post and all the numbers but this is my take on the cash squandered by the Raos from analysing the Companies House documents filed to today.

 

 

 

[tomphil]

We had this before about other loans and share capital being north of 250 mill and i'm sure it was put to bed there's no way they've poured that lot in and somewhere in there is probably the purchase of the club and original debts etc.

If it stands at 250 mill they really are cooking the books and diverting coin elsewhere.

 

Sorry hadn't fully read above post by PLJPB, great post probably the best explanation yet of that particular scenario.

250 million my arse !

Edited April 8, 2019 by tomphil

[cesus]

1 hour ago, PLJPB said:

Another share injection to Venkys London was filed today at Companies House for £1.5m taking the total injected by the Raos to £165m.

There was some disagreement earlier in the thread about how much they had put in - £250m? - but below is my calculation for my belief that it is now £165m. (Its still a hell of a lot of money whether its £250m or £165m!

BRFC (the club) share capital before takeover was £134m (the total cash that Jack pumped in). This was after Jack converted all his loans to share capital.

The initial investment by the Raos into Venkys London Ltd (VLL) in late 2010 was £35m. £25m of this was paid to the Walker family to buy the club with £10m left over to pay off the overdraft (effectively they paid £25m cash for the full £134m of share capital).

This remaining £10m was used to increase the BRFC share capital to £144m in Dec 2010 so that it could presumably be used by BRFC to pay off the overdraft.

There was a further share purchase by VLL on Dec 2015 of 3m taking the total BRFC share capital to £147m which it remains at to this day.

Since the original £35m start up capital in VLL the Raos have put in another £130m taking the total to the £165m I mentioned at the beginning of this (rather long!) post.

All but the Dec 2015 £3m of this I would summise has been loaned to BRFC to keep the club running.

The summary is that the Raos have spent a total of £165m of which £25 + 10 + 3 = £38m was the purchase price and share capital with the remaining £165 - 38 = £127m being a repayable loan from VLL to BRFC which they do not receive interest on but technically could still ask the club to repay. Or they could do what Jack did and convert it all to share capital.

Sorry for the length of the post and all the numbers but this is my take on the cash squandered by the Raos from analysing the Companies House documents filed to today.

 

 

 

Thanks for the detailed info, much appreciated  ... I still don’t want to buy a football club!

[Exiled in Toronto]

2 hours ago, PLJPB said:

Another share injection to Venkys London was filed today at Companies House for £1.5m taking the total injected by the Raos to £165m.

There was some disagreement earlier in the thread about how much they had put in - £250m? - but below is my calculation for my belief that it is now £165m. (Its still a hell of a lot of money whether its £250m or £165m!

BRFC (the club) share capital before takeover was £134m (the total cash that Jack pumped in). This was after Jack converted all his loans to share capital.

The initial investment by the Raos into Venkys London Ltd (VLL) in late 2010 was £35m. £25m of this was paid to the Walker family to buy the club with £10m left over to pay off the overdraft (effectively they paid £25m cash for the full £134m of share capital).

This remaining £10m was used to increase the BRFC share capital to £144m in Dec 2010 so that it could presumably be used by BRFC to pay off the overdraft.

There was a further share purchase by VLL on Dec 2015 of 3m taking the total BRFC share capital to £147m which it remains at to this day.

Since the original £35m start up capital in VLL the Raos have put in another £130m taking the total to the £165m I mentioned at the beginning of this (rather long!) post.

All but the Dec 2015 £3m of this I would summise has been loaned to BRFC to keep the club running.

The summary is that the Raos have spent a total of £165m of which £25 + 10 + 3 = £38m was the purchase price and share capital with the remaining £165 - 38 = £127m being a repayable loan from VLL to BRFC which they do not receive interest on but technically could still ask the club to repay. Or they could do what Jack did and convert it all to share capital.

Sorry for the length of the post and all the numbers but this is my take on the cash squandered by the Raos from analysing the Companies House documents filed to today.

 

 

 

Excellent and much needed summary. How do they put the money into VLL? Loans from a parent body or share purchases?

[PLJPB]

24 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Excellent and much needed summary. How do they put the money into VLL? Loans from a parent body or share purchases?

The cash has all been put into VLL as share capital. From the last VLL accounts there are no loans and the ultimate parent company is stated as Venkateshawri hatcheries Ltd which is the overall parent company. 

At the end of the day it's all the Rao's money but is channelled through their parent company.

Edited April 8, 2019 by PLJPB
Spelling

[PLJPB]

What I find interesting is putting  £1.5m in now just one month after putting £6m in.

Are they now working on a hand to mouth, month to month basis or is this a specific need for cash that wasn't forecast only one month ago?

[davulsukur]

3 hours ago, PLJPB said:

Another share injection to Venkys London was filed today at Companies House for £1.5m taking the total injected by the Raos to £165m.

There was some disagreement earlier in the thread about how much they had put in - £250m? - but below is my calculation for my belief that it is now £165m. (Its still a hell of a lot of money whether its £250m or £165m!

BRFC (the club) share capital before takeover was £134m (the total cash that Jack pumped in). This was after Jack converted all his loans to share capital.

The initial investment by the Raos into Venkys London Ltd (VLL) in late 2010 was £35m. £25m of this was paid to the Walker family to buy the club with £10m left over to pay off the overdraft (effectively they paid £25m cash for the full £134m of share capital).

This remaining £10m was used to increase the BRFC share capital to £144m in Dec 2010 so that it could presumably be used by BRFC to pay off the overdraft.

There was a further share purchase by VLL on Dec 2015 of 3m taking the total BRFC share capital to £147m which it remains at to this day.

Since the original £35m start up capital in VLL the Raos have put in another £130m taking the total to the £165m I mentioned at the beginning of this (rather long!) post.

All but the Dec 2015 £3m of this I would summise has been loaned to BRFC to keep the club running.

The summary is that the Raos have spent a total of £165m of which £25 + 10 + 3 = £38m was the purchase price and share capital with the remaining £165 - 38 = £127m being a repayable loan from VLL to BRFC which they do not receive interest on but technically could still ask the club to repay. Or they could do what Jack did and convert it all to share capital.

Sorry for the length of the post and all the numbers but this is my take on the cash squandered by the Raos from analysing the Companies House documents filed to today.

 

[PLJPB]

38 minutes ago, davulsukur said:

 

It's just an accountant's way of saying that our genius owners have managed to blow £165 million on their venture into football club ownership!

 

[Reedy You're A Star]

1 hour ago, PLJPB said:

What I find interesting is putting  £1.5m in now just one month after putting £6m in.

Are they now working on a hand to mouth, month to month basis or is this a specific need for cash that wasn't forecast only one month ago?

Mowbray's payoff? ?

[Exiled in Toronto]

1 hour ago, PLJPB said:

The cash has all been put into VLL as share capital. From the last VLL accounts there are no loans and the ultimate parent company is stated as Venkateshawri hatcheries Ltd which is the overall parent company. 

At the end of the day it's all the Rao's money but is channelled through their parent company.

Does that mean their share capital in VLL will be on the parent company’s balance sheet at face value, ie as a £127m asset so nothing is showing so far as a loss for them?

[PLJPB]

Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

Does that mean their share capital in VLL will be on the parent company’s balance sheet at face value, ie as a £127m asset so nothing is showing so far as a loss for them?

Good point that I hadn't thought of. We would have to get a copy of the parent company accounts to be sure. I don't know whether they are publicly available.

If you're correct then they would only suffer a loss if they sold the club for less than the £165m. 

[tomphil]

Have they ever done this in any specific plan or pattern ?  Just seem to issue it when the mood takes or we are flying close to the wind.

I'll take a punt and say it's for instalments on Brereton and Armstrong or it's to cover the bills until an early summer player sale ?

[Exiled in Toronto]

51 minutes ago, PLJPB said:

Good point that I hadn't thought of. We would have to get a copy of the parent company accounts to be sure. I don't know whether they are publicly available.

If you're correct then they would only suffer a loss if they sold the club for less than the £165m. 

Might explain why they carry on, stopping would mean writing down the asset value in one big lump, not unlike KraftHeinz did recently which immediately decimated the share price.

[laughatthedingles]

Can’t believe more hasn’t been made of the Brereton transfer (financially), strikes me as odd, I may be wrong but it looks like we’ve paid the majority of it in one full hit in August. That hasn’t been standard practice for any club or many years. 

Why the mad rush to get it paid in that accounting period? Could it have just been a gamble (player wise) and, if done in the financial period we were predominantly in League one, get around Championship FFP rules?

[laughatthedingles]

On another note, Northcotes smaller company that held their Ribble Valley Inns was sold recently, then a little while later Northcote itself has been bought by the same people, all for a incredible amount. 

 

Noises are already being made about 2 training sites not being sustainable or in the best interests of the club itself. 

[Mattyblue]

No wonder Forest couldn’t wait to get shut...

[lraC]

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07406020/filing-history

 

 

Venkys .pdf

[Exiled in Toronto]

The VLL accounts state explicitly that the loan to BRFC of £138 million has not been discounted for any risk of delay or non-payment. This surely means that in Venkys main accounts none of the money they have pissed away on this venture has shown up as a loss yet.

So, what they have on the line is, not only the £138 million, but the hit to their share price (and the family have a LOT of shares) when the loss is eventually declared, which it would be if they sold up or the club went into admin. In that situation, having to put in £15 million a year is a lot better than the alternatives, especially when one promotion to the Premiership makes the problem go away.

It seems we are both embraced in a mutual death grip, if either let’s go we both lose.

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Exiled in Toronto