Championship 2018-19

[JHRover]

Watched the 2nd half of Sheffield United and Birmingham. Sheff Utd were very poor and the last 15-20 minutes was like our first half at Derby with Birmingham all over them and they struggled to put 2 passes together. Sheff Utd seem to blow hot and cold. One week dishing out heavy beatings the next quite a poor side.

[Tom]

Looks like Norwich are favouring one up top and using Rhodes from the bench, he’ll score goals alongside someone but one up front seems to be favoured by managers in this league often.

[roversfan99]

13 minutes ago, Tom said:

Looks like Norwich are favouring one up top and using Rhodes from the bench, he’ll score goals alongside someone but one up front seems to be favoured by managers in this league often.

He was best for us when on his own with someone like Dunn as a 10. That said he proved here he can score goals regardless as long as he gets game time.

[islander200]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

He was best for us when on his own with someone like Dunn as a 10. That said he proved here he can score goals regardless as long as he gets game time.

He hasn't scored goals on a regular basis since he left here.

Boro didnt give him game time,Sheffield Wednesday he was mostly poor when he did play and was left on the bench more often than not.Now the manager at Norwich has dropped him after a few games of him playing up front on his own.

In my opinion we won't be seeing Rhodes amongst the top scorers in this division again.What next for him if it doesnt work out at Norwich 

[booth]

Dare I say it, I wish we could swap Brereton for Rhodes.

Hope Brereton proves me wrong.

[islander200]

6 minutes ago, booth said:

Dare I say it, I wish we could swap Brereton for Rhodes.

Hope Brereton proves me wrong.

What has Rhodes done since he left here?

You think Rhodes would be good playing up front on his own in this side?

Like i said in the Brereton thread until he has played a number of games in his position then none of us know wether he will turn out to be a good signing or not.

But i am certain that Rhodes couldnt play in this side,the ball would be coming back at us all day long.He cant hold a ball up,bring others into play.

Given the chances he can score and has decent movement in the box but we don't create enough chances in the box to take advantage of the only decent attributes Rhodes has and hasn't scored goals consistently since he was here so not sure why anyone would want him back to be honest 

[booth]

19 minutes ago, islander200 said:

What has Rhodes done since he left here?

You think Rhodes would be good playing up front on his own in this side?

Like i said in the Brereton thread until he has played a number of games in his position then none of us know wether he will turn out to be a good signing or not.

But i am certain that Rhodes couldnt play in this side,the ball would be coming back at us all day long.He cant hold a ball up,bring others into play.

Given the chances he can score and has decent movement in the box but we don't create enough chances in the box to take advantage of the only decent attributes Rhodes has and hasn't scored goals consistently since he was here so not sure why anyone would want him back to be honest 

I couldn't care less what he's done since he left, I know what he did when he was here and saw it with my own eyes. I wasn't one of these people who thought he didn't contribute enough, I was firmly in the camp that believed Bowyer underachieved and with a better manager we'd have been challenging for the play-offs.

I'd rather have someone who we know can be consistent rather than a very expensive punt which may eventually cost an otherwise decent manager his job. I know what Rhodes ability is, Brereton I don't but from what I've seen he doesn't look like what we need right now.

But, I said I wish we could swap Brereton for Rhodes, not "I want Rhodes back" and there is a difference as he probably isn't what we need right now (but neither is Brereton in my opinion). If wishes came true I'd much rather he spent the money on a decent defender and a good goalie.

Edited September 20, 2018 by booth

[islander200]

Just now, booth said:

I couldn't care less what he's done since he left, I know what he did when he was here and saw it with my own eyes. I wasn't one of these people who thought he didn't contribute enough, I was firmly in the camp that believed Bowyer underachieved and with a better manager we'd have been challenging for the play-offs.

I'd rather have someone who we know can be consistent rather than a very expensive punt which may eventually cost an otherwise decent manager his job. I know what Rhodes ability is, Brereton I don't but from what I've seen he doesn't look like what we need right now.

But, I said I wish we could swap Brereton for Rhodes, not "I want Rhodes back" and there is a difference as he probably isn't what we need right now (but neither is Brereton in my opinion). If wishes came true I'd much rather he spent the money on a decent defender and a good goalie.

Obviously we just have different opinions on Rhodes he doesnt bring enough to the table for me , if he doesnt score you are effectively playing with 10 men.

Was never Rhodes biggest fan but his scoring record was exceptional here so credit where credit is due but i just don't believe Rhodes would be able to play in this side, just not a fan certainly as a lone striker. 

I definitely think we needed another striker as i don't think Armstrong can play up on his own and with Graham's fitness then we couldnt have gone into the season with just Nuttall and those two although i do take your point about a centre back and goalkeeper to put pressure on Raya, those positions should have been addressed if we had the budget the manager claimed. 

Wether Brererton is answer is of course open to debate and with the figures beinf mentioned for him then perhaps we could have brought someone in more experienced. 

However il stick my neck on the line and from the 10 or 11 times iv seen Brererton in action then i think long term he will turn out to be a good signing for the club

[booth]

What we really needed is a younger player in the Graham mould if we were shelling out megabucks on a forward. Just someone to hold the ball up for players like Dack, and contribute with a handful of goals per season.

It's not just Brereton, I have to question why we signed Armstrong for what he would have cost. Too many risks on young players unproven at this level for my liking.

[47er]

12 minutes ago, islander200 said:

Obviously we just have different opinions on Rhodes he doesnt bring enough to the table for me , if he doesnt score you are effectively playing with 10 men.

Was never Rhodes biggest fan but his scoring record was exceptional here so credit where credit is due but i just don't believe Rhodes would be able to play in this side, just not a fan certainly as a lone striker. 

I definitely think we needed another striker as i don't think Armstrong can play up on his own and with Graham's fitness then we couldnt have gone into the season with just Nuttall and those two although i do take your point about a centre back and goalkeeper to put pressure on Raya, those positions should have been addressed if we had the budget the manager claimed. 

Wether Brererton is answer is of course open to debate and with the figures beinf mentioned for him then perhaps we could have brought someone in more experienced. 

However il stick my neck on the line and from the 10 or 11 times iv seen Brererton in action then i think long term he will turn out to be a good signing for the club

Well you've come round to my point of view, we have weaknesses which should have been addressed.

We had the budget by the way, we chose to we spend it on Brereton. Time will tell whether that was right or wrong.

Whichever way you look at it  though we needed a striker who could play NOW, not in 6 months. Can't expect Graham not to succumb to injury at some point

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by 47er

[islander200]

30 minutes ago, 47er said:

Well you've come round to my point of view, we have weaknesses which should have been addressed.

We had the budget by the way, we chose to we spend it on Brereton. Time will tell whether that was right or wrong.

Whichever way you look at it  though we needed a striker who could play NOW, not in 6 months. Can't expect Graham not to succumb to injury at some point

 

From Mowbrays comments we didnt blow our whole budget on Brererton, we did have a 4 million bid for a city player accepted only for the player to go elsewhere and we bid for Freeman at QPR too so we could have added a goalkeeper and defender if thats what the manager wanted.

On Brererton i suppose its what a person believes will be a good season.With the squad we have now i dont expect us to be anywhere near relegation and i do think a top half finish will be a good season for our first season back, the manager has said that he thinks it will take a couple of transfer windows for us to have a squad capable of sustaining a promotion challenge.Brererton was available, the manager is a fan so it looks like he was brought in for the future more than anything.I still feel he can play a part this season but want to see him have a few starts playing up front before i decide wether we could have spent his fee better.If Graham is fit enough then he should start Saturday if not then i hope he goes for Brereton rather than Arma  and i want to see Brererton up front against Bournemouth midweek

[islander200]

49 minutes ago, booth said:

What we really needed is a younger player in the Graham mould if we were shelling out megabucks on a forward. Just someone to hold the ball up for players like Dack, and contribute with a handful of goals per season.

It's not just Brereton, I have to question why we signed Armstrong for what he would have cost. Too many risks on young players unproven at this level for my liking.

To be honest i think Brereton has the attributes to grow into a Danny Graham type.

Hold up target men get better playing that role with experience and playing time,Brereton is 6"2 only 19 so can still fill out and become more of a physical threat, in Graham's younger years and at Sunderland he didn't always play as a target man.

I do take your point that we could have brought someone in more ready but when i see player's like Waghorn going for 8 million pounds who in my opinion isn't that good then it would be difficult for us to bring in a ready made striker with our wage budget.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, booth said:

What we really needed is a younger player in the Graham mould if we were shelling out megabucks on a forward. Just someone to hold the ball up for players like Dack, and contribute with a handful of goals per season.

It's not just Brereton, I have to question why we signed Armstrong for what he would have cost. Too many risks on young players unproven at this level for my liking.

Who could we have signed in our budget that moved during the window that ticked those boxes? I would like the same, but nobody springs to mind! 

[booth]

I'm not the manager, or a scout but I'm sure there must be players out there who can hold the ball up. Or did those players die out when 4-4-2 did?

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, booth said:

I'm not the manager, or a scout but I'm sure there must be players out there who can hold the ball up. Or did those players die out when 4-4-2 did?

Ya, but you are saying too many risks were taken on young players, so I am just wondering who you would have went for. The "I am not  the manager or a scout" line is easy to fire out without offering alternatives. Villa spent huge money on Kodija and Abraham (loan fee and wages) and I didn't see them doing much holding up against us! To be honest, I think we are a bit spoilt because we actually have one of the best players in the division at doing this in Graham. 

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

 

We had the budget by the way, we chose to we spend it on Brereton. Time will tell whether that was right or wrong.

Whichever way you look at it  though we needed a striker who could play NOW, not in 6 months. Can't expect Graham not to succumb to injury at some point

 

I personally doubt Mowbray would ever have seen £6 million or whatever it was on one player if that player didn't fit very strict criteria.

I think the money was there to be spent only if the person it was being spent on was a sound financial investment highly likely to deliver a return.

People say we could have spent £3 million on 2 proven ready made players but the problem there is that the wages would have been much higher and Venkys probably wouldn't have sanctioned it.

I'm starting to look at the Brereton signing as the modern day Rhodes. Someone somewhere at Venkys end agreed to chuck a large amount in extra on one player, in theory we might have been better spreading that across 3 or 4 new players rather than bringing in loans but I very much doubt, as with Rhodes, that money was available to spread across a few players.

[islander200]

2 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I personally doubt Mowbray would ever have seen £6 million or whatever it was on one player if that player didn't fit very strict criteria.

I think the money was there to be spent only if the person it was being spent on was a sound financial investment highly likely to deliver a return.

People say we could have spent £3 million on 2 proven ready made players but the problem there is that the wages would have been much higher and Venkys probably wouldn't have sanctioned it.

I'm starting to look at the Brereton signing as the modern day Rhodes. Someone somewhere at Venkys end agreed to chuck a large amount in extra on one player, in theory we might have been better spreading that across 3 or 4 new players rather than bringing in loans but I very much doubt, as with Rhodes, that money was available to spread across a few players.

Although i mostly agree with what you say about the criteria and money being spent on a young player with the potential of a decent profit its at odds with our rumoured interest and bids for Freeman at Qpr.He is 26 or 27 now not exactly a young pup and i doubt we would have seen any profit on him if we had paid out 4-5 million pounds

[Bigdoggsteel]

6 minutes ago, islander200 said:

Although i mostly agree with what you say about the criteria and money being spent on a young player with the potential of a decent profit its at odds with our rumoured interest and bids for Freeman at Qpr.He is 26 or 27 now not exactly a young pup and i doubt we would have seen any profit on him if we had paid out 4-5 million pounds

True, but he's meant to be deadly  

[booth]

14 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, but you are saying too many risks were taken on young players, so I am just wondering who you would have went for. The "I am not  the manager or a scout" line is easy to fire out without offering alternatives. Villa spent huge money on Kodija and Abraham (loan fee and wages) and I didn't see them doing much holding up against us! To be honest, I think we are a bit spoilt because we actually have one of the best players in the division at doing this in Graham. 

Why do I need to offer alternatives when it's easy for anyone to see that without Graham in the team we struggle to hold the ball up? It doesn't take much footballing knowledge to work out that we need cover for him given his age. It's a problem, it should be addressed, that's the point. Mowbray clearly isn't a stupid man so I'd have expected him to at least attempt to address it rather than taking a gamble on a young lad for a lot of money.

I not sure why Villa matters, they can make as many mistakes as they like. I'll care about that if I'm ever reincarnated as a Villa fan.

[Bigdoggsteel]

13 minutes ago, booth said:

Why do I need to offer alternatives when it's easy for anyone to see that without Graham in the team we struggle to hold the ball up? It doesn't take much footballing knowledge to work out that we need cover for him given his age. It's a problem, it should be addressed, that's the point. Mowbray clearly isn't a stupid man so I'd have expected him to at least attempt to address it rather than taking a gamble on a young lad for a lot of money.

I not sure why Villa matters, they can make as many mistakes as they like. I'll care about that if I'm ever reincarnated as a Villa fan.

Every signing is a gamble. Who could we sign that does what Graham does? We are all in agreement what he does is crucial. Mowbray took the route of signing a young lad, who will hopefully grow into the role. You clearly know about football, as do I, yet we can't think of someone we could have signed this summer who would go straight in and replace Graham(within our price range).  It's not easy 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[FGS5635]

Our over reliance on Graham is for 2 reasons really.

One is he really good and what he does. He has a ton of experience and he uses it really well. So many tricks of the trade he has aquired over the years, with little nudges here and there to buy a yard

The 2nd is where we need to improve. We struggle to pass through the lines effectivley. Evans and smallwood are limited with their passing and cant play on the half turn and take the ball in traffic. As a result we are to predictable most of the time and are forced to go direct to Graham to get Dack in the game in the final third. I we could improve on evans and smallwood, players like armstrong and bereton would be way more effective. We saw it in the game against carlise where we passed through the lines a lot better how effecive armstrong and dack can be. This was obviously lesser opposition making it easier. The flip sides of that are the players that gave us that going forward left us wide open at times going the other way.

Thats the trouble at this level, players tend to be good at one and not the other. The complete midfield players that are great both ways are playing in the premier league. Hopefully some of these players like reed and davenport can step up and give us a lift in that area. If they do we take a step up imo and become less reliant on DG. Until then he is key to everything we do

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, FGS5635 said:

Our over reliance on Graham is for 2 reasons really.

One is he really good and what he does. He has a ton of experience and he uses it really well. So many tricks of the trade he has aquired over the years, with little nudges here and there to buy a yard

The 2nd is where we need to improve. We struggle to pass through the lines effectivley. Evans and smallwood are limited with their passing and cant play on the half turn and take the ball in traffic. As a result we are to predictable most of the time and are forced to go direct to Graham to get Dack in the game in the final third. I we could improve on evans and smallwood, players like armstrong and bereton would be way more effective. We saw it in the game against carlise where we passed through the lines a lot better how effecive armstrong and dack can be. This was obviously lesser opposition making it easier. The flip sides of that are the players that gave us that going forward left us wide open at times going the other way.

Thats the trouble at this level, players tend to be good at one and not the other. The complete midfield players that are great both ways are playing in the premier league. Hopefully some of these players like reed and davenport can step up and give us a lift in that area. If they do we take a step up imo and become less reliant on DG. Until then he is key to everything we do

You're on fire with the sensible talk today! 

[FGS5635]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

You're on fire with the sensible talk today! 

lol it wont last

[Oldgregg86]

7 minutes ago, FGS5635 said:

Our over reliance on Graham is for 2 reasons really.

One is he really good and what he does. He has a ton of experience and he uses it really well. So many tricks of the trade he has aquired over the years, with little nudges here and there to buy a yard

The 2nd is where we need to improve. We struggle to pass through the lines effectivley. Evans and smallwood are limited with their passing and cant play on the half turn and take the ball in traffic. As a result we are to predictable most of the time and are forced to go direct to Graham to get Dack in the game in the final third. I we could improve on evans and smallwood, players like armstrong and bereton would be way more effective. We saw it in the game against carlise where we passed through the lines a lot better how effecive armstrong and dack can be. This was obviously lesser opposition making it easier. The flip sides of that are the players that gave us that going forward left us wide open at times going the other way.

Thats the trouble at this level, players tend to be good at one and not the other. The complete midfield players that are great both ways are playing in the premier league. Hopefully some of these players like reed and davenport can step up and give us a lift in that area. If they do we take a step up imo and become less reliant on DG. Until then he is key to everything we do

I couldn't agree more or have put it better

[Bigdoggsteel]

I think the season in League 1 has rejuvenated Graham, either that or playing under Mowbray. The nudges, the rolling around defenders to get in front of them, using his body(usually arse) to hold defenders off. He actually has it down to an art form. He wasn't as good at it when we were last in the Championship. He never gives center halves an easy game, competes for everything. They know he isn't the quickest, but yet he still manages to win a savage amount of ball that is played into him. I would say a young center half who relies on pace is like "how does this guy keep getting the f**** ball!" 

If he was 22, how much would he be worth now? I suppose what he does comes with experience and the need to change his game due to slowing down. Anyway, fair play to him because he has managed to adapt his game and make himself indispensable to our team. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel