Championship 2018-19

[JBiz]

31 minutes ago, Tom Stinny said:

How do we assess any manager that we have then? Either now or in the future. Last season's target was promotion. This seasons was getting a foothold in the championship. But next season or the one after that? If we are still between 15th and 10th after that are we hitting targets?

 

That's the only reason I get on his back because we need to improve every year but he's been here two years and hasn't sorted the defence as an example. Why would that change in another two years? If you understand my point.

Why would I judge the manager and team on next seasons results now?

Equally - why would I assume that the manager isn’t interested in improving the defence, just because we haven’t as of yet.

Would Magliore be on the cusp of the first team if we’d signed a new CB?

12 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I agree with you but will Mowbray play them? And would you be critical of Mowbray if he didn’t?

We are now playing dead rubber games until the end of the season. Will he play many... any... of our youngsters, planning for the future? Or will he carry on picking his favourites because he trusts them?

You are ignoring context.

If we were 7th and didn’t recruit...?

If we were second and picked a dud team...?

If we were 3rd and could have gone for the automatic spot...

I didn’t criticise ‘the team’, I criticised - and continue to criticise - Mowbray for a lack of ambition, and for his inabilities in recruitment, tactics and organisation. Instead falling back on loyalty and tub-thumping, while making more and more bizarre comments in the local rag.

He gets away with all this though because fans are delighted with being safe this season when we could have easily been where Preston are: 9th and two points off the play-offs.

He is playing them. It takes time to bed senior players in, nevermind youngsters. Look at the development of Travis and Nuttall this season!

Im afraid the point about context is just as applicable to your “beef”. You criticise based on specifics, and ignore the big picture (ie the context!)

We couldve also been where Wigan or Rotherham are too, despite Preston’s excellent season so far. 

As for bizarre comments - I couldn’t disagree more. Mowbray talks far more sense than many about football, especially a few on BRFCS  

[Mattyblue]

Yes it does take time to bed in youngsters. That's why it is absolutely vital that the transfer policy this summer must focus on bringing in some experienced pros, otherwise we will be perennially in development limbo waiting for 'potential' to mature (or not, as some young lads just don't), whilst the likes of Dack, Mulgrew, Graham either leave or end up over the hill, weakening the 11 and you are constantly spinning your wheels. 

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

Yes it does take time to bed in youngsters. That's why it is absolutely vital that the transfer policy this summer must focus on bringing in some experienced pros, otherwise we will be perennially in development limbo waiting for 'potential' to mature (or not, as some young lads just don't), whilst the likes of Dack, Mulgrew, Graham either leave or end up over the hill, weakening the 11 and you are constantly spinning your wheels. 

I agree, couple m more additions like Rodwell, keep the Bennett’s/Graham’s and Mulgrews and watch the others blossom around them. 

 

[Stuart]

Just now, Biz said:

Why would I judge the manager and team on next seasons results now?

Equally - why would I assume that the manager isn’t interested in improving the defence, just because we haven’t as of yet.

Would Magliore be on the cusp of the first team if we’d signed a new CB?

He is playing them. It takes time to bed senior players in, nevermind youngsters. Look at the development of Travis and Nuttall this season!

Im afraid the point about context is just as applicable to your “beef”. You criticise based on specifics, and ignore the big picture (ie the context!)

We couldve also been where Wigan or Rotherham are too, despite Preston’s excellent season so far. 

As for bizarre comments - I couldn’t disagree more. Mowbray talks far more sense than many about football, especially a few on BRFCS  

True enough. Sadly he isn’t setting the bar high at the minute.

The bigger picture is of Mowbray’s approach and whether he is the right man to take us forward. Apart from when he had the biggest budget in the division one has to say no. His Championship record is extraordinary average:

P57 W19 D19 L19 F81 A82 GD-1

Very succinctly sums him up - and why fans are split without anyone calling for his head. He’s as good as he is bad. Almost to the goal!

https://www.transfermarkt.com/tony-mowbray/leistungsdatenDetail/trainer/1584/plus/0?saison_id=2018&verein_id=164&liga=&wettbewerb_id=&trainer_id=

[JBiz]

Just now, Stuart said:

True enough. Sadly he isn’t setting the bar high at the minute.

The bigger picture is of Mowbray’s approach and whether he is the right man to take us forward. Apart from when he had the biggest budget in the division one has to say no. His Championship record is extraordinary average:

P57 W19 D19 L19 F81 A82 GD-1

Very succinctly sums him up - and why fans are split without anyone calling for his head. He’s as good as he is bad. Almost to the goal!

https://www.transfermarkt.com/tony-mowbray/leistungsdatenDetail/trainer/1584/plus/0?saison_id=2018&verein_id=164&liga=&wettbewerb_id=&trainer_id=

It’s disingenuous to use his rovers championship stats to judge his credentials in this league - for two reasons.

1. He’s managed two other clubs in this league

2. He inherited “coyles rovers”

I have to admit. I’m shocked 14% or 30 odd votes want a new manager immediately. To me, those views seem ridiculous. 

[47er]

1 hour ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

I was under the impression it was more the players who almost got them in the play offs last year returning from injury that has propelled Preston ahead of us. 

Signed 4  players I believe. We stood still.

[Stuart]

2 minutes ago, Biz said:

It’s disingenuous to use his rovers championship stats to judge his credentials in this league - for two reasons.

1. He’s managed two other clubs in this league

2. He inherited “coyles rovers”

I have to admit. I’m shocked 14% or 30 odd votes want a new manager immediately. To me, those views seem ridiculous. 

Disingenuous to provide statistics to back up my argument?

He has had four windows, two in the Championship. Pointing back, at this stage, to what he inherited is the disingenuous point. Moreover, many of those inherited (not replaced/upgraded) players continue to feature in Mowbray’s preferred XI after those windows by the way: Raya, Bennett, Graham, Mulgrew, Lenihan, being ever presents when fit!

Interesting to draw a comparison between the two men in line with your first point: both have a single Championship success to their name - ironically within 12 months of each other - that they both still seem to get currency for, 10 years after the event.

[Exiled in Toronto]

23 minutes ago, 47er said:

Signed 4  players I believe. We stood still.

Last season they finished 7th, so, as of right now, they’ve moved backwards.

[JBiz]

14 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Disingenuous to provide statistics to back up my argument?

He has had four windows, two in the Championship. Pointing back, at this stage, to what he inherited is the disingenuous point. Moreover, many of those inherited (not replaced/upgraded) players continue to feature in Mowbray’s preferred XI after those windows by the way: Raya, Bennett, Graham, Mulgrew, Lenihan, being ever presents when fit!

Interesting to draw a comparison between the two men in line with your first point: both have a single Championship success to their name - ironically within 12 months of each other - that they both still seem to get currency for, 10 years after the event.

Disingenuous to cherry pick specific statistics to make a point. Like I said - using the post - Coyle results is like judging him for the entire season. He’s also got one team out of this league and done ok with another. If you wanted to show his true history you’d include those stats.

Then to compare the relative achievements of the person responsible for our relegation - as if they’re in the same “league” - it’s a strange thing to think - for me comes across as short memoried...

Weve had Mowbray for two years. In that time the overall movement has been forward, and the trajectory looks upward! Things change quickly admittedly, but using the overall picture (context) the bloke has been a good manager for us.

[Stuart]

2 minutes ago, Biz said:

Disingenuous to cherry pick specific statistics to make a point. Like I said - using the post - Coyle results is like judging him for the entire season. He’s also got one team out of this league and done ok with another. If you wanted to show his true history you’d include those stats.

Then to compare the relative achievements of the person responsible for our relegation - as if they’re in the same “league” - it’s a strange thing to think - for me comes across as short memoried...

Weve had Mowbray for two years. In that time the overall movement has been forward, and the trajectory looks upward! Things change quickly admittedly, but using the overall picture (context) the bloke has been a good manager for us.

It’s not cherry picking at all. Those are his Championship stats at Rovers. That’s what’s relevant to us. How he has performed for us. The interesting bit of that small but if research was to highlight just how mediocre he has been for us at this level.

The overall trajectory hasn’t been upwards it has been a U-shape which is currently on it’s way towards a double-dip. Although we all hope not.

The comparison was simply an ironic one, and factual. However... while Mowbray is eminently more likeable than Coyle, their records aren’t that dissimilar.

Just for the record, my vote was not to immediately replace Mowbray but to review in the Summer. I stand by that. What he does ability our defence in the Summer will be vital. If he doesn’t address it properly then I won’t just forget about it, I’ll add it to the negative column. Right now there are still more in that one than the positive one. IMHO.

[blueboy3333]

12 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Last season they finished 7th, so, as of right now, they’ve moved backwards.

They've moved forwards from January, which is the period under discussion. They aren't the Invincibles either if you want to use that in the future?

[JBiz]

Just now, Stuart said:

It’s not cherry picking at all. Those are his Championship stats at Rovers. That’s what’s relevant to us. How he has performed for us. The interesting bit of that small but if research was to highlight just how mediocre he has been for us at this level.

The overall trajectory hasn’t been upwards it has been a U-shape which is currently on it’s way towards a double-dip. Although we all hope not.

The comparison was simply an ironic one, and factual. However... while Mowbray is eminently more likeable than Coyle, their records aren’t that dissimilar.

Just for the record, my vote was not to immediately replace Mowbray but to review in the Summer. I stand by that. What he does ability our defence in the Summer will be vital. If he doesn’t address it properly then I won’t just forget about it, I’ll add it to the negative column. Right now there are still more in that one than the positive one. IMHO.

It is cherry picking because at least 10 of those games are with Coyles team. This is his team now, even if some of the individuals are the same.

Their overall records are massively different - if you include his poor spells for us and Wigan. Win percentages aside, Mowbray hasn’t bombed anyone out of this league to my knowledge. 

Ofcourse things can change quickly - and I can see why anyone would re-visit their opinion and optimism about a team/manager over the summer - but I’m not in that camp. I see real foundations being put into our revival, and it’s exciting tbh - especially compared to 2010-2017!

 

[Exiled in Toronto]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

They've moved forwards from January, which is the period under discussion. They aren't the Invincibles either if you want to use that in the future?

Since when they have had several key players from last year’s team return from injury, which seems likely to have contributed to their return to last year’s form, given three of their signings haven’t made an appearance yet. Were you expecting to spend all season above the team that finished 7th last year?

[Stuart]

Just now, Biz said:

It is cherry picking because at least 10 of those games are with Coyles team. This is his team now, even if some of the individuals are the same.

Their overall records are massively different - if you include his poor spells for us and Wigan. Win percentages aside, Mowbray hasn’t bombed anyone out of this league to my knowledge. 

Ofcourse things can change quickly - and I can see why anyone would re-visit their opinion and optimism about a team/manager over the summer - but I’m not in that camp. I see real foundations being put into our revival, and it’s exciting tbh - especially compared to 2010-2017!

Despite a plethora of ‘number 10s’ being shuffled around the wings I don’t see any foundations being put in to our centre midfield, defence or goalkeeper - despite four windows.

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, Stuart said:

Despite a plethora of ‘number 10s’ being shuffled around the wings I don’t see any foundations being put in to our centre midfield, defence or goalkeeper - despite four windows.

Well starting with midfield, you’ve got Travis - who looks the real deal. Behind him, Davenport, Buckley etc

In attack, BB, Rankin C, Nuttall, Butterworth, etc

In Defence, Magliore, Wharton, Doyle and those already in the first 18, Nyambe, Lenihan etc.

Finally - Raya. Still only young, can only get better but despite a few mistakes and slack distribution- I think we’ve got a potential first team stalwart for years to come.

 

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, Biz said:

For me, it’s been a good season so far. Comfortably competing at this level without too many changes to the first 11, plenty of investment of time and money into youth projects like Travis and Brereton - the trajectory is good in my opinion.

Much of that comes down to having a really good manager and an ownership prepared to keep put some money into fees, funding the youth setup and covering the wage gap. I don’t subscribe to the theory it’s now or never. I think our best chance to rebuild to a consistent premier league outfit is through our academy, a long term project - and the signs are good for me.

The likes of Butterworth, Chapman, Davenport, Magloire, BB, Rankin Costello, Buckley etc, all look potential stars -  we have an absolute plethora of exciting prospects.

It’s a really exciting time for me anyway. I know some expect us to be fighting for silverware and promotion every season, but I don’t think that’s realistic.

That said. If we had been in the playoffs this season, the criticism would be why aren’t we going for automatic!

If you think that’s not true, just remember twelve months ago - people criticised the team for not winning the league...

People didnt criticise us for not winning the league, they criticised the manager for not appearing to be arsed about winning the league, big difference. Again, your line about automatic promotion suggests you are purposely being obtuse.

The main criticism has been about the failure to significantly improve a League 1 team with a very big net budget. This is where expectations are irrelevant, and mutually exclusive. You can meet expectations and totally waste a hefty transfer budget at the same time. You've staunchly defended the Brereton deal but we are nowhere near a top 6 team, which is the long term goal to get promoted, so we simply cannot afford 7m sub strikers who is at best 3rd choice and yet to get a goal, regardless of potential which I have yet to see.

There is plenty to build around and look forward to, players like Rothwell and Chapman are genuine projects (low cost, high reward without seriously impeding our overall budget) and we have a very good academy. The Brereton one is high risk, and so far no reward.

If we finish around where we are now, between mid table and relegation, I would consider it an underwhelming but far from disastrous season. With the finances available I was never of the opinion that we would be relegated, in danger of doing so or should be happy with simply avoiding relegation.

[JBiz]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

People didnt criticise us for not winning the league, they criticised the manager for not appearing to be arsed about winning the league, big difference. Again, your line about automatic promotion suggests you are purposely being obtuse.

 

It’s unfound criticism for me. Judge the bloke by what he achieves not what he says. Certain fans still take personally that we played a less than full strength team at Charlton, and in the context of the season - it’s a strange reaction! 

[Stuart]

7 minutes ago, Biz said:

Well starting with midfield, you’ve got Travis - who looks the real deal. Behind him, Davenport, Buckley etc

In attack, BB, Rankin C, Nuttall, Butterworth, etc

In Defence, Magliore, Wharton, Doyle and those already in the first 18, Nyambe, Lenihan etc.

Finally - Raya. Still only young, can only get better but despite a few mistakes and slack distribution- I think we’ve got a potential first team stalwart for years to come.

 

I’ve lost track of the debate here. You are crediting Mowbray with developing all those U23 players most of whom are completely unproven?

Rankin-Costello is currently being converted to a full back!

These aren’t the foundations of a rebuild. These are potential for the future.

We can’t keep looking down the road without showing up the current team - and with a foundation built on experience. Who is the next Graham or Mulgrew because we need a couple of 28-30 year olds to complement the potential. We are also like to lose Reed and Rodwell who have PL pedigree/experience whilst hoping that Travis continues his barnstorming start.

[DE.]

27 shots in the Leeds/Sheffield Utd game... One on target, which went in. 

[Tom Stinny]

16 minutes ago, Biz said:

Well starting with midfield, you’ve got Travis - who looks the real deal. Behind him, Davenport, Buckley etc

In attack, BB, Rankin C, Nuttall, Butterworth, etc

In Defence, Magliore, Wharton, Doyle and those already in the first 18, Nyambe, Lenihan etc.

Finally - Raya. Still only young, can only get better but despite a few mistakes and slack distribution- I think we’ve got a potential first team stalwart for years to come.

 

Travis got in the team because the dynamic duo in Smallwood and Evans wasn't available. It was an accident who was going to league 1 before we ended up on low numbers. 

 

Davenport hasn't kicked a ball for the first team and seems to be giving gladwin a run for the most injured player of the season award.

 

Besides from the magloire lad every other player hasn't kicked a ball in anger for us so can't pin any hopes on them. I think a few are also getting carried away with him. He's played 1 game. Let's judge after 10 or 20.

 

Weren't you saying in January that Brereton was a waste of money and that we needed to buy a new forward?

 

All you've got to look at is in two full years. We conceded just as much as we did under coyle and if not for the good start would be in a very similar situation to him this season.

 

Raya is still under dispute. Has he really improved since last year? 

 

Nuttal is a BTEC Jason Roberts

[blueboy3333]

35 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Since when they have had several key players from last year’s team return from injury, which seems likely to have contributed to their return to last year’s form, given three of their signings haven’t made an appearance yet. Were you expecting to spend all season above the team that finished 7th last year?

They signed 4 players in January, at least two of whom have contributed. Which players have come back and contributed?

Again though, I'll return you back to the point. It's not about last season it's about where we were in January, which was above PNE. They've kicked on because they invested. We stood still. 

[blueboy3333]

2 minutes ago, DE. said:

27 shots in the Leeds/Sheffield Utd game... One on target, which went in. 

 

Sheff Utd...or the Blunts as @CP Company Lad used to call them. Lets hope he had a good scrap to compensate

Edited March 16, 2019 by blueboy3333

[Husky]

11 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

 

Sheff Utd...or the Blunts as @CP Company Lad used to call them. Lets hope he had a good scrap to compensate

You're not going to win many games with ZERO shots on target.

Is Bielsa the new Keane?

[roversfan99]

39 minutes ago, Biz said:

It’s unfound criticism for me. Judge the bloke by what he achieves not what he says. Certain fans still take personally that we played a less than full strength team at Charlton, and in the context of the season - it’s a strange reaction! 

Again, you randomly brought it back up, not someone still aggrieved by it. You are making out as if the main thing people were taking from the season was the title surrender, which is blatantly untrue. Again, you can criticise the manager for discounting a potential league title, which he blatantly did both with what he said and the team he picked, whilst being complimentary about the overall promotion. 

[47er]

7 hours ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Last season they finished 7th, so, as of right now, they’ve moved backwards.

Now 1 point out of the 6! Don't know what you're trying to prove here! We're the ones going backwards aren't we?