Rovers' finances

[cesus]

Another thread on same topic.

Edited March 21, 2019 by cesus
Covered in another thread

[Pedro]

On 04/06/2018 at 18:11, SIMON GARNERS 194 said:

"Last time #Rovers made a profit was 2012, their last season in the Premier League. Since Venky’s bought the club in November 2010, the club has accumulated £115m of losses, some achievement considering they have had 2 seasons in top flight followed by 4 with parachute payments."

 

That quote from Swiss Ramble says it all..total financial mismanagement on a spectacular scale.

Don't anyone dare say to me these people have the best interests of the club at heart even after promotion from the dead man's league.

What do they have to gain by us losing over £115m ? 

Nobody has ever given a non-tinfoil hat reason.  All I can think of is there is a magical portal under Brockhall that leads to a land of oil, gold and diamonds. It is a land where sexually adventurous and frustrated beautiful women (with an obsession for average blokes) outnumber men 10:1 and every year is 1994-95.  I feel that the  Venky trips to Switzerland are actually  to CERN (because they are cahoots with them) and we have likely promised them partial access rights to Brockhall but it is a necessary evil as we need access to their large Hadron collider to open up the said portal.  We just need to run the club into the ground, lift the covenants to Brockhall and It's all systems go.  

Edited March 24, 2019 by Pedro

[Stuart]

Just now, Pedro said:

What do they have to gain by us losing over £115m ? 

Nobody has ever given a non-tinfoil hat reason.  All I can think of is there is a magical portal under Brockhall that leads to a land of oil, gold and diamonds. It is a land where sexually adventurous and frustrated beautiful women (with an obsession for average blokes) outnumber men 10:1 and every year is 1994-95.  I feel that the  Venky trips to Switzerland are actually  to CERN (because they are cahoots with them) and we have likely promised them partial access rights to Brockhall but it is a necessary evil as we need access to their large Hadron collider to open up the said portal.  We just need to run the club into the ground, lift the covenants to Brockhall and It's all systems go.  

They are probably at CERN trying to find out if they can time travel back to 1995 to tie Matthew Simmons’ shoe laces together.

[DE.]

They should be travelling to Akihabara instead. 

[Herbie6590]

From this morning’s independent

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/premier-league-epl-efl-league-one-two-championship-miguel-delaney-a8926126.html?amp&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

 

Rovers have “struggled to pay wages” 

[tomphil]

You've only got to cast the mind back to Coyles time and pre that to realise we were heading in Boltons direction it's amazing it's all forgotten about but it was happening.

Taps almost turned off, players sold under managers nose, FFP sanctions and mid season emergency high interest funding being sought and used.  It was a hairy time inside the club and a worrying one on the field that ultimately ended in relegation.

A few things saving Rovers that Bolton weren't fortunate enough to have was a raft of players to sell for good money in a short space of time and get off the wage bill and the fact as far as we know it still owned all its fixed assets mortgage free.

No idea what changed but something did, my guess would be new funding streams from somewhere in India after the previous ones were squared off with proceeds from the fire sale.

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, Herbie6590 said:

From this morning’s independent

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/premier-league-epl-efl-league-one-two-championship-miguel-delaney-a8926126.html?amp&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

 

Rovers have “struggled to pay wages” 

Delaney is a good journalist. Not many Irish "Miguels" ?

You should get him on the podcast  

[Admiral Nelsen]

1 hour ago, Herbie6590 said:

From this morning’s independent

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/premier-league-epl-efl-league-one-two-championship-miguel-delaney-a8926126.html?amp&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

 

Rovers have “struggled to pay wages” 

They've changed the piece now, just say that we've posted record losses. 

[Mattyblue]

No surprise, potentially libellous that.

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

You've only got to cast the mind back to Coyles time and pre that to realise we were heading in Boltons direction it's amazing it's all forgotten about but it was happening.

Taps almost turned off, players sold under managers nose, FFP sanctions and mid season emergency high interest funding being sought and used.  It was a hairy time inside the club and a worrying one on the field that ultimately ended in relegation.

A few things saving Rovers that Bolton weren't fortunate enough to have was a raft of players to sell for good money in a short space of time and get off the wage bill and the fact as far as we know it still owned all its fixed assets mortgage free.

No idea what changed but something did, my guess would be new funding streams from somewhere in India after the previous ones were squared off with proceeds from the fire sale.

This is why our situation can’t last forever.

If they have been borrowing to fund us then, even if it is against Indian assets and Rovers are somehow insulated, then that could stop again at some point. It has too.

[JHRover]

Yeah, I was a bit surprised to see the Independent running with that one as I've never seen anything that suggests we've ever been late with wages, or struggled to pay them, or defaulted on them. To be fair to Venkys that is one area they have been good at consistently - making sure wages/tax/essential costs are all met on time and we don't go through the humiliation of winding up petitions and unpaid staff like Bolton and others lower down the system have gone through. They've even managed to do it despite what must be quite complex and difficult issues of distance and time with them being based in India. We've seen with Reading and Birmingham for example that getting funds across the world on time isn't always straightforward.

I suspect that wages are met on time because it is 'out of sight and out of mind' for the top dogs at Venky HQ. It will be numbers on the payroll that goes out automatically and doesn't require much thought or choice on the part of the owners. Presumably all going through the company balance sheets. Don't pay and they'll be shown up among their rich mates and also will eventually lose control of the club. An altogether different ball game to them coughing up additional lump sum cash amounts out of their reserves or personal accounts which isn't essential and isn't the bare minimum required. Extra cash to spruce up Ewood or lay a new pitch or bring in a couple of quality players? Not so simple. Open to persuasion maybe if they get the taste for it and like what they hear from the manager but the ball seems to be in his and Waggott's court to persuade them, rather than the owners deciding they're spending X amount and instructing those at Ewood to get on with it.

A very odd setup. Some positives yes in that we appear to be owned and financed by a stable, successful business that doesn't seem likely to pull the plug on us any time soon but also a distinct reluctance to go beyond that and a lack of interest in the smaller things that see clubs improve and progress.

[Herbie6590]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Delaney is a good journalist. Not many Irish "Miguels" ?

You should get him on the podcast  

I like him on the Indy football podcast....very good during last year’s WC...

[Herbie6590]

There were a number of “interactions” on Twitter with Miguel...all very civilised TBF & he has recognised the poor wording and amended accordingly. 

[tomphil]

55 minutes ago, Stuart said:

This is why our situation can’t last forever.

If they have been borrowing to fund us then, even if it is against Indian assets and Rovers are somehow insulated, then that could stop again at some point. It has too.

Things have been a bit more sensible since that period so maybe some 'investors' or lenders before that period got it settled then there was a clean slate to go again on a more sustainable footing.  All guesswork as usual but it does make a bit of sense hence why I really don't expect any spending spree this summer but maybe a short term wage bill increase on a few loans and frees which can be brought done again in a season or two and debts brought down again by a sale or three.

Maybe a modest gamble similar to Lamberts mid season effort so it really does come down to astute recruitment, no room for wasters now.

[Scotland1]

5 hours ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

They've changed the piece now, just say that we've posted record losses. 

It’s a rag though. 95 percent pretentious drivel around 5 percent news.

That said I know for a fact Madame Desai promised staff early doors whatever happens with them she will personally make sure they’re always paid.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Scotland1

[Crimpshrine]

11 hours ago, tomphil said:

You've only got to cast the mind back to Coyles time and pre that to realise we were heading in Boltons direction it's amazing it's all forgotten about but it was happening.

 

It will never be forgotten. My worry is we will be in that situation again at some point. 

Rovers is a business to Venky's - they want to balance the books and have no interest in the football side of things. They've taken the soul out of the club.

[47er]

11 hours ago, Stuart said:

This is why our situation can’t last forever.

If they have been borrowing to fund us then, even if it is against Indian assets and Rovers are somehow insulated, then that could stop again at some point. It has too.

There is only one way to solve our financial issues-----promotion. Can't understand why the owners can't/won't see that. Kean and SEM maybe?

[Herbie6590]

5 hours ago, 47er said:

There is only one way to solve our financial issues-----promotion. Can't understand why the owners can't/won't see that. Kean and SEM maybe?

I’m pretty sure that they are aware of the income opportunities available to Premier League clubs 47er...their challenge is squaring the circle of FFP isn’t it ? 

[47er]

1 hour ago, Herbie6590 said:

I’m pretty sure that they are aware of the income opportunities available to Premier League clubs 47er...their challenge is squaring the circle of FFP isn’t it ? 

Its a challenge every club which has been promoted since FFP came in has risen to.

They may well have awareness but where's the resolve? The  blueprint TM seems to be following doesn't fill me with confidence.

Sounds much like buy to sell to me.

[tomphil]

Problem is most of our owner input still goes to under write losses racked up by them in previous seasons and of course guarantee the wages to enable us to pay beyond our income.

The club then under FFP has to have a certain portion of its own income as well to avoid big borrowings and more debt so it's a bit of a minefield that only way around without getting really creative is sell a player now and again for good money.  I suppose they thin the more turds they try and polish the more chance of creating a conveyor belt of selling for a few million regularly to under pin it and maybe being able to keep the better ones as long as possible, fair enough.

I'm not comfortable with the hints of selling Dack and buying a load of cheapo gambles to fluff out the squad and hope one or two make the big money grade though that's just playing into the agents revolving door model yet again and it isn't building a promotion squad its treading water.

When you sell quality for big money at least a portion of that should go straight into some more quality either ready made or real potential, even if it isn't in the same position as the departing player.

By all means sell to survive if that's the case but don't dress it up as anything else that's telling lies again !

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, OnePhilT said:

What would your solution be to gain promotion without a promotion-or-bust model?

This should be good 

[Crimpshrine]

18 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

What would your solution be to gain promotion without a promotion-or-bust model?

Isn't that their problem ? Why own a football club if you aren't prepared to push for success and put a bit of effort in.

Huddersfield, Bournemouth, Cardiff, Brighton, Sheff Utd - why can't we do it if they can? 

I know FFP exists and needs to be taken into account but other clubs find ways around it.

Alternatively use the promotion-or-bust model - Venky's can afford it. They're just not interested.

[JHRover]

2 minutes ago, Crimpshrine said:

Isn't that their problem ? Why own a football club if you aren't prepared to push for success and put a bit of effort in.

Huddersfield, Bournemouth, Cardiff, Brighton, Sheff Utd - why can't we do it if they can? 

I know FFP exists and needs to be taken into account but other clubs find ways around it.

Alternatively use the promotion-or-bust model - Venky's can afford it. They're just not interested.

This is the crux of things. People appear to enjoy hiding behind FFP rules or want to throw them up as a shield to protect the owners from any criticism as though their hands are tied by these rules.

For me if you are determined/desperate to get promoted there are two ways of doing it.

Option 1 is to spend your way up - like Bournemouth, Leicester, QPR, Brighton, Wolves and Derby/Villa will have done. Last time I checked none of those clubs had been given anything other than a token fine for their rule breaking whilst most have established themselves as top division sides and are now laughing all the way to the bank. They speculated and now they are accumulating. Do do that you of course require owners with very deep pockets, who are happy to spend. Obviously there is a risk that if the spending isn't done wisely or if things don't work out then promotion might be missed - Sheffield Wednesday, Derby, Villa, Forest, Middlesbrough - and last time I checked none of those have been punished either, except some vague/inconsistent transfer 'restriction' placed on Sheffield Wednesday last summer which nobody really knows what happened and it didn't see them come to any real harm and they've since brought in Steve Bruce who will probably get them up.

Infact the only club to receive a serious sanction was Birmingham City, who were safely secured in mid-table before a points deduction was imposed and the slate wiped clean. It's hardly brought their world crashing down has it?

Option 2 is to do it another way - spend more sensible amounts of cash but within a coherent well thought out structure - Norwich, Huddersfield, Sheffield United - not losing money hand over fist but not self sufficient either. I don't recall Chris Wilder talking about signing players to increase in value and sell again - everything I've ever seen from him is about getting a winning team together and giving it everything for promotion.

Of course amongst all the wailing about FFP rules there is the fact that there doesn't appear to have been any serious attempt from the owners in their bungalow on the other side of the world to do anything about it. Simple answer is they aren't interested enough to waste their time doing it. Birmingham's owners sponsored their stadium and training ground. Derby owner sold their stadium to himself. Other clubs have attracted prominent sponsors. We've done next to nothing yet complain more than most.

[47er]

Just now, OnePhilT said:

It's as much (if not more so) the supporters' problem as it is Venkys'. Venkys could easily plunge us into administration. I don't want that, especially after how the last couple of years have gone. If would rather continue as we seem to be doing currently than be plunged into administration and then suffer far worse owners. See Bolton Wanderers for near-miss.

Find another Dyche and get promoted would do me.  Didn't spend £7M on the entire team. I'd suggest Allardyce but they already sacked him.

[47er]

8 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

You gave a good answer earlier, by the way - but the problem is our wage ceiling. It sounds like there is one. And it sounds like we have no hope of even getting the Bauers of this world, never mind those who have been released in this league.

If we do have a wage ceiling its self-imposed. Giving contract extensions to players now sadly past it, signing players who were never there to start with with, blocking promotion to young ones with something to prove-----all of these have impacted on our wage bill. Signing a safe goalkeeper would be worth 10-15 points a season at least. I've supported Rovers when we didn't have a pot to piss in and its tragic to see us nearly back there.

But we always had good keepers, some brilliant, without paying much of a fee. And we always had at least one rock at centre-back.

Thank you for your complimentary remarks about my previous post---now sadly deleted by admin.

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by 47er
new info