Rovers' finances

[Crimpshrine]

Just now, S8 & Blue said:

I wouldn’t trust Venkys with ownership of the ground at all and I think any suggestion of such is insane.

It would go tits up faster than you can say “Tesco’s car park”

Maybe, but I am just suggesting some inventive thinking and actually taking an interest. 

One meeting a year with the manager and paying the bills does not fulfil their obligations. We are just not set up to succeed.

[JHRover]

Just now, S8 & Blue said:

I wouldn’t trust Venkys with ownership of the ground at all and I think any suggestion of such is insane.

It would go tits up faster than you can say “Tesco’s car park”

Its not a question of whether we would trust them. If they wanted to do it they could and there's nothing anyone on here could do about it. The point here isn't whether we'd agree with it - I'm sure no Derby fan was consulted prior to their owner doing it and I don't recall much uproar from them as most appear to trust him to get on with it and do the right thing. 

The point is that there's an awful lot of moaning from people at Rovers about FFP rules and how tough it is to deal with those rules yet little evidence of anyone actually doing something about it. The Derby one is an extreme example of how to do it, but quite a clever way to dodge the rules. There are other ways such as fake sponsors and training ground sponsorship etc. Sadly our billionaire owners who claim to own 90 odd companies or whatever it was don't see any benefit to one of those sponsoring the club to allow funds through the back door to avoid FFP trouble. Much easier to do nothing and then moan when other clubs spend far more without sanction.

[SBlue]

The rules are the rules. Sponsorship has to be at market value. This is one of the reasons Wednesday are up the shitpipe.

I hate the idea of gambling on promotion by building on sand, lies and by remortgaging the family jewels.

It might not be exciting: but a slow, self sustainable build (I know, we don’t have that either) with a long term target is far more preferable than leaving a trail of bad decisions that makes promotion an immediate REQUIREMENT

Edited May 25, 2019 by S8 & Blue

[Crimpshrine]

Just now, JHRover said:

 Sadly our billionaire owners who claim to own 90 odd companies or whatever it was don't see any benefit to one of those sponsoring the club to allow funds through the back door to avoid FFP trouble. Much easier to do nothing and then moan when other clubs spend far more without sanction.

This is the point. The owners have the potential, the money and the opportunity to do everything within their means to make Rovers a success but they do very little.

Why do they bother?

[JHRover]

Just now, S8 & Blue said:

The rules are the rules. Sponsorship has to be at market value. This is one of the reasons Wednesday are up the shitpipe.

I hate the idea of gambling on promotion by building on sand, lies and by remortgaging the family jewels.

It might not be exciting: but a slow, self sustainable build (I know, we don’t have that either) with a long term target is far more preferable than leaving a trail of bad decisions that makes promotion an immediate REQUIREMENT

Derby's owner has sold their stadium to himself, legitimately. The League has given it the go-ahead. Other clubs don't like it but there's nothing they can do about it now. It has enabled them to assemble a quality side that on Monday might be in the Premier League. 

Speaking of gambling and putting clubs in danger our owners have heaped £150 million of debt on this club and until the last couple of years were running it as a cowboy operation. Both a far bigger risk to the club's long term future than selling the ground to themselvses. If I was putting my trust in someone I think it would be the Derby owner who has invested to make his club better and had them in promotion contention every year.

You refer to a 'self sustainable' build but that isn't going to be possible. If we want to be self sufficient then we are going to need to sell more than £10 million of players every year, yet if we do that we'll probably end up back in League One.

Edited May 25, 2019 by JHRover

[Herbie6590]

I read this topic with interest...but can’t help thinking that there are many Rovers fans who supported Rovers Trust’s action to ensure Ewood was designated an Asset of Community Value to prevent a sale of the ground...

Equally had Venkys “done a Derby” I suspect many would have been suspicious of their motives.

My take is that Derby is owned by a fan, Rovers aren’t so we view all those transactions through that lens

[tomphil]

Selling one or two players for 15 million every two or three seasons then reinvesting a lump and using the rest to pay down previous debt and to help future running costs is probably the right way to do it.  IF we don't or can't get enough investment to hold onto what we have and build a very good side over a few windows.

Growing a team to break up and sell over 2 or 3 windows or so then reinvesting very little and trying to do it all again whilst still dreaming of promotion isn't.

Option 1  is acceptable it's running a semi sustainable club again whilst retaining a strong squad that you keep searching for the final pieces of the jigsaw for that one over achieving season or you get stronger and stronger and are regulars at the top end that should finally pay off eventually.

Option 2 stinks - stinks of agents and people just playing football manager - we've been there, we ended up in league 1.

Edited May 25, 2019 by tomphil

[AshleyClifford]

The Derby county situation is odd. One minute they were up for sale for a quid the next their owner is buying pride park for well over its market value. Could even more bizarre if he sold it back for peanuts. It’s not a long term plan as you can only do this once. On Derby county and possible promotion they have been contenders for years there turn over won’t actually be massively different to Rovers. Due to attendances maybe 2/3m more I’m talking before player sales as they have sold a few over the years. But let’s say that extra 10m over 3 seasons on top of the allowed losses of £39m - could be why they have had no sanctions so far.

[tomphil]

Frank Lampard County I think are going for a little bit of the #hit or bust scenario whilst they have a big name at the helm and are getting more publicity than they have for years.

They've found a way to get cash in short term but will they keep trying to do it time and again ? Doubtful, as we've seen these wealthy owners try things, try other things then either get fed up or run out of funding themselves and it goes tits up.  It really needs to work for them in the next season or two or they are back to square one yet still paying players that haven't been good enough to get them over the final hurdle.

If it works though and they go up all's well and good but like others i'd not be very comfortable with our lot going down this route, well not yet anyway as once that money is spewed it's spewed.  I don't feel the team is strong enough it needs more building before a final big push imo. 

[Herbie6590]

Swiss Ramble has done Rovers on Twitter & it is amazing analysis....

[Herbie6590]

Some highlights here but the full expose on Twitter is quite something....

[Herbie6590]

Part 2

[J*B]

Or a much easier way to view Ian’s post above, here

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268794861400068097.html

6th highest debt in the country across all leagues. Debt to owners at a record high. FFP at maximum under the rules - can’t buy without selling and even then can’t spend more than we bring in. 

[Herbie6590]

Part 3

[Herbie6590]

2 minutes ago, J*B said:

Or a much easier way to view Ian’s post above, here

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268794861400068097.html

6th highest debt in the country across all leagues. Debt to owners at a record high. FFP at maximum under the rules - can’t buy without selling and even then can’t spend more than we bring in. 

No one likes a smartarse ?

[Herbie6590]

I’m gonna see it through.... #stubborn

 

Part 4 

[Herbie6590]

I don’t think we are likely to be that surprised by any of this but we don’t have any money, are (relatively) poorly supported, struggle to boost commercial income and are completely in hock to our owners. 
Oh yeah....the directors have doubled their wages though...trebles all round....?

[G Somerset Rover]

The wages surprised me - I didn’t realise how far behind the pack we were in terms of wage budget. Illustrates the size of the challenge. 

[RoverCanada]

Ha, glad he did one as it saves me from boring you all with one of my long posts

The twitter link: 

He's also been posting two-slide summaries for teams of late. Here's ours:

Been overwhelmed with work last few months (not complaining given the circumstances!), but been meaning to give our accounts a skim. So you're all not necessarily off the hook of a long, boring post!

[cesus]

When you read those figures there surely can't be a sport hemorrhaging money like the English game. Surely we aren't far from a break away big boys Euro/World League then wage and spending caps for the rest to protect the future. A future that come next season will highly likely start without a few clubs.

[Herbie6590]

37 minutes ago, cesus said:

When you read those figures there surely can't be a sport hemorrhaging money like the English game. Surely we aren't far from a break away big boys Euro/World League then wage and spending caps for the rest to protect the future. A future that come next season will highly likely start without a few clubs.

I suspect a post-COVID football world is going to be very different. Chasing the dream in the Championship for potentially a single season of “glory” is surely going to be even less sustainable ?

[roversfan99]

In terms of looking at the wages, it is important to remember that these figures are for last season and therefore dont factor in the wages of Johnson, Downing, Gallagher, Adarabioyo, Holtby and Walton which will surely push us much closer to the middle.

The thing to remember about parachute payments and the difficulties of competing with teams with them is that they are not intended or indeed there to fund an instant return. They are there to help a relegated club cope with hugely decreased income whilst maintaining a large proportion (factoring in contracted wage decreases) of Premier League wages. Of course when we had these instead of being prudent we spent it all.

Interesting to see the directors remuneration double putting us at 6th highest. Waggott really proving his worth presumably being paid through the nose for such necessary improvements as the Waggott tax and an attitude of "We're committed, are you?!"

Also quite interesting to see that if you took the illogical buy of Bem Brereton out if it who achieved nothing then our spend is near the bottom as expected.

One thing I am sure of is that the overall financial situation of Championship clubs including ourselves is frightening. It quite frankly isnt sustainable and I suspect if the whole of next season or even a decent percentage of it is behind closed doors it could start to fold like a deck of cards.

[cesus]

43 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

I suspect a post-COVID football world is going to be very different. Chasing the dream in the Championship for potentially a single season of “glory” is surely going to be even less sustainable ?

I have listened to most of the "price of football" podcasts which explains lots of the financials of football. The one or two seasons in the Premier League "and all its riches" does come across as a bit of an urban myth. It seems as soon as you get your Premier League cash, everybody is knocking at your door for bonuses, higher wages, infrastructure improvements, player purchase clauses costs and a whole host of things. It's a broken model I'm afraid.

 

* That's also with the hope that owners who have blown £10's - £100 million dont want any of their cash back!!

Edited June 5, 2020 by cesus

[Herbie6590]

Price of Football is a great pod... @cesus I’m a big fan...

[arbitro]

38 minutes ago, cesus said:

I have listened to most of the "price of football" podcasts which explains lots of the financials of football. The one or two seasons in the Premier League "and all its riches" does come across as a bit of an urban myth. It seems as soon as you get your Premier League cash, everybody is knocking at your door for bonuses, higher wages, infrastructure improvements, player purchase clauses costs and a whole host of things. It's a broken model I'm afraid.

 

* That's also with the hope that owners who have blown £10's - £100 million dont want any of their cash back!!

Look no further than Huddersfield for a prime example. Two seasons in the PL, parachute payments and now crying poverty.