Thursday deadline.

[Give 'Em the Axe]

Just now, bluebruce said:

If, in theory, we had 2.5 million to spend on a player in a position we really need to strengthen doesn't mean we have an EXTRA 2 million to spend on a central defender with 12 months on their deal. 

There's two things at play there. Prioritising (if our budget was say, 3.5 million, you can't buy both and the other players we need, but you could probably get one and fill the other positions acceptably. Also, value for money. We might feel one just about represents it, and the other doesn't at all, for the prices asked.

Spending 2.5 mill on one player wouldn't mean we can spend that on everyone.

I like your thinking. And appreciate that you didn't try to turn a disagreement into a mickey waving contest.

In my post about Bauer and Charlton and faffing about. It was more so that if we're going with a 300K offer for a player they obviously rate much higher, then it might indicate that the budget is, well, a little bit 'budget'.

[JHRover]

If the manager wants significant cash out of the owners it is usually granted when the owners are convinced that there is a good chance of a return on that investment down the line. Money paid out on Dack, Samuel, Bell, Davenport and Rothwell since Mowbray was at the helm. All at the young end of the scale with scope to improve and increase in value. The potential profit on Dack alone would cover all of that and then some.

People talk about what a shambles the club has been but from a purely financial point of view the business done in terms of spending on players and sales of players has been nothing short of phenomenal over the last 3-4 years.

The last significant cash buys that turned out badly were way back with Etuhu, Best, Campbell etc.

We haven't actually spent money on anyone who hasn't subsequently increased in value with the possible exception of Samuel who at present is unlikely to be worth more than we paid for him. Maybe too early on Davenport, Rothwell and Bell but a competent start to life in the Championship would likely see values increase.

There have been plenty of duds but they have usually been free transfers or loans.

Good business indeed if you're looking to turn a healthy profit on player trading and use that to subsidise the club.

[bluebruce]

30 minutes ago, Give 'Em the Axe said:

I like your thinking. And appreciate that you didn't try to turn a disagreement into a mickey waving contest.

In my post about Bauer and Charlton and faffing about. It was more so that if we're going with a 300K offer for a player they obviously rate much higher, then it might indicate that the budget is, well, a little bit 'budget'.

No worries, I'm not here to pick fights with fellow fans! I think with Bauer it is simply that our valuations are miles apart. I doubt we will pay anything like 2 million for him because it's not the best allocation of it unless our total remaining budget for fees is upwards of 6 million (which is highly unlikely) in my view. Any big spend should go on a winger, followed by a striker.

I'm sure the first LT article on Bauer said he was valued at 500k. Whether that was by us, Charlton, Bauer's agent, or some other source, if that's what you think a player will cost, 300k is a fair opening gambit. Clearly, to our surprise  the game changed completely and we have either abandoned it, or (given the LT is still talking about it) we are focussing on other business before re-assessing what we can and will pay.

[bluebruce]

4 hours ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Wes Brown had a great sense of humour apparently!

You can tell, saw him laughing all the way to the bank!

Edited July 11, 2018 by bluebruce

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

If the manager wants significant cash out of the owners it is usually granted when the owners are convinced that there is a good chance of a return on that investment down the line. Money paid out on Dack, Samuel, Bell, Davenport and Rothwell since Mowbray was at the helm. All at the young end of the scale with scope to improve and increase in value. The potential profit on Dack alone would cover all of that and then some.

People talk about what a shambles the club has been but from a purely financial point of view the business done in terms of spending on players and sales of players has been nothing short of phenomenal over the last 3-4 years.

The last significant cash buys that turned out badly were way back with Etuhu, Best, Campbell etc.

We haven't actually spent money on anyone who hasn't subsequently increased in value with the possible exception of Samuel who at present is unlikely to be worth more than we paid for him. Maybe too early on Davenport, Rothwell and Bell but a competent start to life in the Championship would likely see values increase.

There have been plenty of duds but they have usually been free transfers or loans.

Good business indeed if you're looking to turn a healthy profit on player trading and use that to subsidise the club.

In terms of where Mowbray has spent money, however small the fees, id argue there are definitely more misses/unknowns than hits. Gladwin and Hart are definite failures, Samuel may not have been an unmitigated disaster but id suggest wed never make a profit on him, Bell and Downing are squad players. That said, Dack was such a success that if we sold him hed pay for all of them.

Whilst the policy of of buying players for lower fees is in general a clever one. We need to make sure we step up in the market, if we are signing League 1 players they need to be the best ones in that league, Dack was proven as that having won player of the season once. The others were low fee gambles and now at least 2 are just drains on the wage bill, however small. Bell, Downing and Samuel, regardless of my personal opinion on the latter can all at least be squad players for us.

Lets hope Mowbray is allowed more money, and allowed to buy more in the way of finished product/proven quality.

 

[RevidgeBlue]

6 hours ago, Kamy100 said:

Currently the Championship transfer market is inflated with teams paying over the odds for average players, even the loan market is crazy with Norwich paying £3 million for Rhodes for a season long loan.  Rovers have funds but we are not talking huge funds so we are having to be patient and see if the market calms down as we get closer to the deadline, at the moment the players we want ie Bauer the price clubs want is not something we can pay so it seems to be a case of waiting and seeing.  I would rather they do this and wait rather than panic and buy players that they are not sure about who end up not being good enough.

Depends how much we want Bauer. If we really want him and think he is a player with huge potential then surely £2m, or at least something sensible approaching that doesn't represent too much of a gamble.

The problem with messing about sweating on a derisory offer which is never likely to be accepted is 

a) we won't get the player and 

b) the alternative is arguably spending money on a player we Don't really want. Possibly right at the last minute in a panic buy sort of situation as well depending on how long we leave it.

[Bbrovers2288]

Don’t think we can tarnish all older players with the same brush, look at the performances Tugay, Hughes, Salgado, Dunn gave us. I understand Johnson had an injury record hence why I said pay as you play, if he doesn’t get fit he doesn’t get paid. I still have a lot of question marks over nyambe and with the club seemingly unwilling to part with transfer fees I’d rather get the better freebies in. I feel our squad is well behind where it should be currently. A few rabbits will need to be pulled from the hat in next few weeks to change that opinion. Our best defender is 32, Johnson ain’t finished at 33 in my opinion and always likes his tackling and forward drive. 

[chaddyrovers]

 

3 hours ago, JHRover said:

Amazing how we've ended up in a state where signing a decent player from Peterborough is considered to be beyond reach.

If you take that Peterborough chairman's comments at face value then there's only a handful of clubs that could fill the criteria unless he's going abroad. If his release clause is only a million or so then I'd be astonished if there weren't a dozen or more Championship clubs activating it and I'd be extremely impressed if we'd managed to do so under a veil of secrecy ahead of rivals.

I have to say that I'm underwhelmed to say the least with our business so far. That's no particular criticism of those who have come in who I know very little about and who might turn out ok for us. However I don't believe we are stronger than we were at the end of last season, I think we are weaker.

Maybe we'll see more activity in the coming weeks but at the time of writing I'm not exactly comfortable with what has happened so far. A signing like Maddison would allay those concerns by addressing a problem area with a sought after player.

who says its beyond our reach for us to sign this Peterborough player? or maybe Mowbray doesn't want him and looking at other players were we could sign 2 or 3 cash buys instead of spending big on one player? 

Maddison's release clause is 2.5 million pounds according to media reports. do you rate the player and is he worth the money? 

why underwhelmed with our transfer business when you see the transfer market is a mess and over priced for average players. surely we have to remain patient and hopefully we will get our targets in the end for the correct fees? 

From speaking to fans who attended the Hibs game Davenport was excellent and looks a player. 

If we are after 2 wide players I would deffo want Ryan Kent who had an excellent season at Barnsley when on loan there and Chapman permanently. I feel we need another striker signing aswell. possible another centre back 

7 hours ago, Kamy100 said:

Currently the Championship transfer market is inflated with teams paying over the odds for average players, even the loan market is crazy with Norwich paying £3 million for Rhodes for a season long loan.  Rovers have funds but we are not talking huge funds so we are having to be patient and see if the market calms down as we get closer to the deadline, at the moment the players we want ie Bauer the price clubs want is not something we can pay so it seems to be a case of waiting and seeing.  I would rather they do this and wait rather than panic and buy players that they are not sure about who end up not being good enough.

its looks a crazy market so far and the buying market ends in less than 4 weeks. 

6 hours ago, davulsukur said:

Glenn Johnson was never worth £18million, he may have been sold for that much but he was never worth it.

He'll turn 34 in a month and has a nice history with injuries to go with that.

He would be here for one reason and one reason only, a final pay day.

exactly

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

In terms of where Mowbray has spent money, however small the fees, id argue there are definitely more misses/unknowns than hits. Gladwin and Hart are definite failures, Samuel may not have been an unmitigated disaster but id suggest wed never make a profit on him, Bell and Downing are squad players. That said, Dack was such a success that if we sold him hed pay for all of them.

Whilst the policy of of buying players for lower fees is in general a clever one. We need to make sure we step up in the market, if we are signing League 1 players they need to be the best ones in that league, Dack was proven as that having won player of the season once. The others were low fee gambles and now at least 2 are just drains on the wage bill, however small. Bell, Downing and Samuel, regardless of my personal opinion on the latter can all at least be squad players for us.

Lets hope Mowbray is allowed more money, and allowed to buy more in the way of finished product/proven quality.

 

More misses than hits? Some of the players who has been misses didn't cost us much or a penny in fees. 

I would say the job Mowbray has done to turn  this club around and get fans, club and players all united and all going in one direction is a great job and something that doesn't be written off. 

wasn't Bell named in the PFA team of the year last season? 

 

[tomphil]

If we were to spend up to 2.5 mill on one player ( we Won't ) i'd like it to be a striker who's almost nailed on to bag 15+ goals in the champ. That would prove a vital bit of business.

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, tomphil said:

If we were to spend up to 2.5 mill on one player ( we Won't ) i'd like it to be a striker who's almost nailed on to bag 15+ goals in the champ. That would prove a vital bit of business.

Those type of players cost a lot more than £2.5m I'd have thought?

[JHRover]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

 

who says its beyond our reach for us to sign this Peterborough player? or maybe Mowbray doesn't want him and looking at other players were we could sign 2 or 3 cash buys instead of spending big on one player? 

Maddison's release clause is 2.5 million pounds according to media reports. do you rate the player and is he worth the money? 

why underwhelmed with our transfer business when you see the transfer market is a mess and over priced for average players. surely we have to remain patient and hopefully we will get our targets in the end for the correct fees? 

From speaking to fans who attended the Hibs game Davenport was excellent and looks a player. 

If we are after 2 wide players I would deffo want Ryan Kent who had an excellent season at Barnsley when on loan there and Chapman permanently. I feel we need another striker signing aswell. possible another centre back 

its looks a crazy market so far and the buying market ends in less than 4 weeks. 

exactly

More misses than hits? Some of the players who has been misses didn't cost us much or a penny in fees. 

I would say the job Mowbray has done to turn  this club around and get fans, club and players all united and all going in one direction is a great job and something that doesn't be written off. 

wasn't Bell named in the PFA team of the year last season? 

 

I know better than to start judging players on the basis of 45 minutes against Hibs in a pre-season game. Its pointless and has very little bearing on whether a player will perform over 46 games in the Championship. Hopefully he will but if everyone who looked decent in pre-season games went on to be a good player we'd have signed Dean Furman after his goal at Accy Stanley.

Massive question marks on Chapman in terms of fitness. Even when fit Mowbray didn't trust him to start in League One so why would he suddenly want to start him in the Championship?

You sum up why I am concerned - the market ends in less than 4 weeks - that's why we cannot be infinitely patient and there comes a stage where we have to act. it won't be any good if the window slams shut and we haven't done the necessary business because 'its a crazy market'. That won't score us goals or win us games.

Yes I'm underwhelmed. I might turn out to be wrong and we might turn out to have done some really good business but by mid-July I would have expected more than we've got. Each week that goes by is a week less to integrate new signings and get them up to speed on tactics, fitness and settle into the squad.

[roversinmyblood]

3 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If we were to spend up to 2.5 mill on one player ( we Won't ) i'd like it to be a striker who's almost nailed on to bag 15+ goals in the champ. That would prove a vital bit of business.

I think a 15 goal a season striker would cost a lot more than £2.5M. I think Maddison scored 12 goals and had 23 assists in 2017-18!! That would be a pretty good return for £2.5M. 

[tomphil]

3 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Those type of players cost a lot more than £2.5m I'd have thought?

Danny Graham turned out alright although obviously his type are a big gamble on wages but I think there are plenty examples at Champ level who didn't cost a right lot.

[tomphil]

24 minutes ago, roversinmyblood said:

I think a 15 goal a season striker would cost a lot more than £2.5M. I think Maddison scored 12 goals and had 23 assists in 2017-18!! That would be a pretty good return for £2.5M. 

You could spend 5 mill and he could score 5 goals or you could source someone with a steady but not spectacular record and he'd be a hit in the right system. Like I said above there's plenty examples over recent years who've banged in loads at this level but haven't cost a right lot.

A steady scorer who fits your style is the thing to look for. Ok guaranteeing 15 is a big ask but maybe look around players who've banged in up to 10 regularly and you know there is something there to build on.

Edited July 11, 2018 by tomphil

[chaddyrovers]

4 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I know better than to start judging players on the basis of 45 minutes against Hibs in a pre-season game. Its pointless and has very little bearing on whether a player will perform over 46 games in the Championship. Hopefully he will but if everyone who looked decent in pre-season games went on to be a good player we'd have signed Dean Furman after his goal at Accy Stanley.

Massive question marks on Chapman in terms of fitness. Even when fit Mowbray didn't trust him to start in League One so why would he suddenly want to start him in the Championship?

You sum up why I am concerned - the market ends in less than 4 weeks - that's why we cannot be infinitely patient and there comes a stage where we have to act. it won't be any good if the window slams shut and we haven't done the necessary business because 'its a crazy market'. That won't score us goals or win us games.

Yes I'm underwhelmed. I might turn out to be wrong and we might turn out to have done some really good business but by mid-July I would have expected more than we've got. Each week that goes by is a week less to integrate new signings and get them up to speed on tactics, fitness and settle into the squad.

look at Davenport form at Burton in half a season there. 

Mowbray has said his views on Chapman role here and That's why I want Kent then he would play wide left with either Bennett or Conway wide right. 

That's why patient is crucial and that's why not be nervous and paying over the top for average is good. the market will settle sort for a week or 2 and that's when we will sign a couple of players. if the market does than Mowbray has decisions to make. 

I would have like more signings but has been said by Kamy the market is crazy and players are overpriced and that's why we haven't got more signed 

11 minutes ago, tomphil said:

If we were to spend up to 2.5 mill on one player ( we Won't ) i'd like it to be a striker who's almost nailed on to bag 15+ goals in the champ. That would prove a vital bit of business.

I would go for Sam Winnall

[RevidgeBlue]

16 minutes ago, JHRover said:

You sum up why I am concerned - the market ends in less than 4 weeks - that's why we cannot be infinitely patient and there comes a stage where we have to act. it won't be any good if the window slams shut and we haven't done the necessary business because 'its a crazy market'. That won't score us goals or win us games.

Yes I'm underwhelmed. I might turn out to be wrong and we might turn out to have done some really good business but by mid-July I would have expected more than we've got. Each week that goes by is a week less to integrate new signings and get them up to speed on tactics, fitness and settle into the squad.

I think you are actually being extremely understated by saying you are "underwhelmed" by the window to date. We are in urgent need of one maybe two quality strikers who can find the net at this level and the same as regards one maybe two pacey players in the wide positions. There's no sign of these priority positions being addressed so far and the only 2 additions are 2 lads who I'm sure will be viewed as providing competition for places initially.

Note the key phrase here is 'to date". It could all change in 2 or 3 days. But by God it needs to!

Edited July 11, 2018 by RevidgeBlue

[Mattyblue]

2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

That's why patient is crucial and that's why not be nervous and paying over the top for average is good. the market will settle sort for a week or 2 and that's when we will sign a couple of players. if the market does than Mowbray has decisions to make. 

I would have like more signings but has been said by Kamy the market is crazy and players are overpriced and that's why we haven't got more signed 

 

Or the market doesn't settle down. The Championship is not the division it was 5 years ago, the fees and wages now being paid by some clubs wouldn't have been out of place in the PL not that long ago.

 

 

[RevidgeBlue]

 

 

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Or the market doesn't settle down. The Championship is not the division it was 5 years ago, the fees and wages now being paid by some clubs wouldn't have been out of place in the PL not that long ago.

 

 

Agreed. Also not sure where the automatic assumption  the market "will settle down" comes from.

There is no reason why prices should suddenly collapse for players in demand. Obviously for players for whom there is little demand and the selling Club want shut of the situation is completely different.

For players inbetween like Bauer who the selling Club would like to keep but they are coming into the last 12 months of their contract,  the parent Club might still prefer to get 12 months out of them than let them go for a derisory sum.

[tomphil]

Ben Marshall to Wolves is a good example of the Bauer situation.  Rovers asking for about 3 mil at first wasn't it even though his contract was running down ?

Behind the scenes he wanted out and they needed him off the payroll and wanted a fee, any fee. In the end he goes for about the same he cost.

This one will run a while I think and how he performs in preseason might determine it, has his head been turned enough ?

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

who says its beyond our reach for us to sign this Peterborough player? or maybe Mowbray doesn't want him and looking at other players were we could sign 2 or 3 cash buys instead of spending big on one player? 

Maddison's release clause is 2.5 million pounds according to media reports. do you rate the player and is he worth the money? 

why underwhelmed with our transfer business when you see the transfer market is a mess and over priced for average players. surely we have to remain patient and hopefully we will get our targets in the end for the correct fees? 

From speaking to fans who attended the Hibs game Davenport was excellent and looks a player. 

If we are after 2 wide players I would deffo want Ryan Kent who had an excellent season at Barnsley when on loan there and Chapman permanently. I feel we need another striker signing aswell. possible another centre back 

its looks a crazy market so far and the buying market ends in less than 4 weeks. 

exactly

More misses than hits? Some of the players who has been misses didn't cost us much or a penny in fees. 

I would say the job Mowbray has done to turn  this club around and get fans, club and players all united and all going in one direction is a great job and something that doesn't be written off. 

wasn't Bell named in the PFA team of the year last season? 

 

Stop being needlessly defensive of Mowbray when its totally unwarranted. I never said he hasnt done a great job or got people united so please dont portray that I did. Putting this is both inaccurate and irrelevant.

I made a point in isolation about buying players for small fees, and how its worked as a strategy thus far. I listed these, and bar Dack the players we bought for fees last season have either turned out to be squad players, or just generally of no use ie Gladwin and Hart.

I'm well aware that some of the other signings he made via different means (Smallwood, out of contract or Armstrong, loan) were also successes.

My point was that these fees might need to go up a bit and that we need to look at a higher calibre of players than your Gladwins, Samuels and Harts.

He was, quite strangely considering he didnt play that much really here, so must have got it for his form at Fleetwood. I dont understand why you even put that, I never said hes rubbish or a bad signing, just that hes a squad player in that I think Mowbray considers Williams to be his number 1 at left back.

[1864roverite]

A half decent striker would prosper in any team with a good supply line. So having a solid defence is the start, strong midfield with bite and creativity and a striker with a nouse for the onion bag and there you go⚽️⚽️⚽️⚽️⚽️⚽️

[Dave S]

I haven't posted for  a long time...But there is talk in the south that Rovers have bid for Mohamed Eisa of Cheltenham.

A young quick striker. Peterborough have had a 1m bid turned down recently.  Apparently.

[Mike E]

Just now, Dave S said:

I haven't posted for  a long time...But there is talk in the south that Rovers have bid for Mohamed Eisa of Cheltenham.

A young quick striker. Peterborough have had a 1m bid turned down recently.  Apparently.

A very tidy lower league player, but not sure I'd want him unless it was to cover a loan for Nuttall or something.

[Miker]

3 hours ago, tomphil said:

Ben Marshall to Wolves is a good example of the Bauer situation.  Rovers asking for about 3 mil at first wasn't it even though his contract was running down ?

Behind the scenes he wanted out and they needed him off the payroll and wanted a fee, any fee. In the end he goes for about the same he cost.

This one will run a while I think and how he performs in preseason might determine it, has his head been turned enough ?

I’d like us to sign Bauer as he seems a good player with a lot of potential, but we are not exactly desperate to sign defensive players at this stage, so I think that’s why Mowbray is being patient with this one.

Mulgrew and Lenihan are our first choice pairing in the centre, so any defender who comes in would have to settle for a place on the bench and take his chances when either one of them is injured or in poor form.

We have Williams and Nyambe who can play at centre back, especially if we play 3 defenders, plus Downing, Wharton and Platt competing for spots as well. 

[Miker]

4 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I think you are actually being extremely understated by saying you are "underwhelmed" by the window to date. We are in urgent need of one maybe two quality strikers who can find the net at this level and the same as regards one maybe two pacey players in the wide positions. There's no sign of these priority positions being addressed so far and the only 2 additions are 2 lads who I'm sure will be viewed as providing competition for places initially.

Note the key phrase here is 'to date". It could all change in 2 or 3 days. But by God it needs to!

I agree, 2 quality forward/wingers are imperative in this transfer window. If we fail to sign them I would be worried where the goals would be coming from.

I’ve said before I’d be happy with Armstrong/Chapman, but both are unproven at this level really. So I’d love us to make a big statement and sign a proven goal scorer as a marquee signing.