Thursday deadline.

[Roverthechimp]

29 minutes ago, scotchrover said:

You’ve got to remember that the prices clubs are paying are normal though. A couple of million for a second tier player is the going rate these days. A couple of hundred thousand- which is what we’re trying to get players at- is laughable. 

Isn’t a it frustrating that Venky’s most successful appointment is getting the least amount of transfer funding, out of all the absolute dross they’ve put in charge?

It makes me wonder how much Venky’s promised when they went over there? I do wonder though if Venky’s have put the cash up, but Waggot’s refusing to sign them due to the wages, because of  fears of financial fair play breathing down the club’s neck again. 

Just a minor counterpoint. TM has Mulgrew, Graham, Bennett, Evans, Conway, Whittingham, Lenihan and probaby Williams all on decent wages as well as signing Dack and Samuel. Transfer fees are only part of the equation with crowds of 12-15k and no parachute...

So far he has not had anyone sold from under him either...

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

That would be an extremely silly and unprofessional thing to say. 

Being honest with paying customers is unprofessional?

[chaddyrovers]

1 minute ago, JHRover said:

Nobody is getting a transfer ban. At least not whilst the window is open. They'll probably wait until all the business is done and then embargo clubs in September when the consequences are nil.

Waggott should just be honest and say there's very little/no money in the pot for transfers and they want to do it on the cheap by bringing in low cost loans and a couple of hundred grand signings. It's Venkys money and ultimately their decision but just be honest about it.

Stop hiding behind FFP rules when it's clear that clubs who want to spend can do, stop saying things like we had a really good budget and had money left over in January which we chose not to spend.

I think Mowbray's priority was tying down Dack and Lenihan and keeping what we had and Venkys agreed to that, but sadly it has come at the expense of a reasonable transfer budget. Strange that Mowbray has spent what little money he has on a couple of midfielders neither of which have any pedigree at this level but then again both were cheap and have re-sale value which is what Venkys are into.

I'm extremely disappointed with the window to date. I didn't expect to be throwing fortunes around but thought they would reward Mowbray with a half decent budget that would at least enable us to recruit a higher calibre than the likes of Bolton and Ipswich. Seems we can't even go to their level now.

Time to prove me wrong and turn it around is rapidly disappearing. I consider Ipswich to be the start of the season not some Sky sports fuelled deadline day in a few weeks.  Points are won and lost when the season kicks off not when the window closes.

 

What a half decent budget tho at this level? 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, JHRover said:

Being honest with paying customers is unprofessional?

You have no idea at this point if it is even true. 

Then, what is a decent budget? What is the cut of point where a chairman needs to tell everyone a club doesn't have a decent budget? £4,999,999? 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Those wondering how Derby escape FFP, take a look at this 

http://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-championship-2017-2018/1/

Derby get an average of 27,000 fans per home game. Lets say a ticket costs £25 pounds, with us having gates of around 12,000 fans per week, that is £375,000 per week more than we make, £1.5 million per month. 

[JHRover]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

What a half decent budget tho at this level? 

Whatever it is it seems we haven't got it.

Just now, Roverthechimp said:

Just a minor counterpoint. TM has Mulgrew, Graham, Bennett, Evans, Conway, Whittingham, Lenihan and probaby Williams all on decent wages as well as signing Dack and Samuel. Transfer fees are only part of the equation with crowds of 12-15k and no parachute...

So far he has not had anyone sold from under him either...

There are lots of clubs in the Championship who have players under contract on decent wages, clubs who get gates of 15-20,000 a week, yet those clubs also spend in the transfer market. All those players bar Evans signed deals either under Mowbray or Coyle so ought to be on sensible Championship wages.

I'm as pleased as the next man that we haven't lost any big hitters from last season - yet - namely Dack. Lenihan and Mulgrew - but no evidence our resolve has been tested by way of bids given that Dack has never kicked a ball in the Championship, Mulgrew is out of contract next year and Lenihan spent most of last season in the treatment room.

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

You have no idea at this point if it is even true. 

Then, what is a decent budget? What is the cut of point where a chairman needs to tell everyone a club doesn't have a decent budget? £4,999,999? 

All the evidence at this point suggests it is true. Maybe I'll be wrong and I'll be man enough to hold my hands up if so but time is ticking.

So far we've 'spent' the equivalent of buying a house on Jack Walker Way and I very much doubt all that money is up front. I don't think that is a decent budget for a Championship football club supposedly wanting to kick on towards the Premier League.

Edited July 25, 2018 by JHRover

[tomphil]

Just now, Roverthechimp said:

Just a minor counterpoint. TM has Mulgrew, Graham, Bennett, Evans, Conway, Whittingham, Lenihan and probaby Williams all on decent wages as well as signing Dack and Samuel. Transfer fees are only part of the equation with crowds of 12-15k and no parachute...

So far he has not had anyone sold from under him either...

Which is why I've mentioned it half a dozen times whilst some seem content to cling to the daft notion we have 3-5 million to spend but just can't get the deals done.

The budget probably increased in line with the projected income and most of that will have already been swallowed up with new contracts, scheduled pay rises and bonuses etc. There'll be very little room left so it's make do scrabbling around or maybe get one over the line that costs around a million, after that it's the usual cheap young loans, frees and hope they'll agree to underwrite the wages on a Prem loan or two at the last min.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, JHRover said:

All the evidence at this point suggests it is true. Maybe I'll be wrong and I'll be man enough to do so but time is ticking.

So far we've 'spent' the equivalent of buying a house on Jack Walker Way and I very much doubt all that money is up front. I don't think that is a decent budget for a Championship football club supposedly wanting to kick on towards the Premier League.

Well the evidence to date also suggests Spurs and Burnley have no money either so  

Realistically we can't match the top budgets in this division, Stoke spent £30 million on McLean, Afobe and Ince. We ain't buying our way out of the division, but we have things Stoke don't have like a set team ,with a great team spirit who are in the habit of winning considerably more games than we lose. 

We still need signings though, and time is pushing on, but there is no point in panicking yet. If the window closes without a minimum 1 striker and 1 winger on permanent deals, then I will say it has been an awful window. 

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Those wondering how Derby escape FFP, take a look at this 

http://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-championship-2017-2018/1/

Derby get an average of 27,000 fans per home game. Lets say a ticket costs £25 pounds, with us having gates of around 12,000 fans per week, that is £375,000 per week more than we make, £1.5 million per month. 

Ok then. Average ticket is £20 factoring in concessions. They get double what we do through the doors. That's about £6.5 million a year. They're supposedly paying that out on Waghorn alone. Where does the rest come from to fund their wage bill and other transfer business?

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Well the evidence to date also suggests Spurs and Burnley have no money either so  

Realistically we can't match the top budgets in this division, Stoke spent £30 million on McLean, Afobe and Ince. We ain't buying our way out of the division, but we have things Stoke don't have like a set team ,with a great team spirit who are in the habit of winning considerably more games than we lose. 

We still need signings though, and time is pushing on, but there is no point in panicking yet. If the window closes without a minimum 1 striker and 1 winger on permanent deals, then I will say it has been an awful window. 

I'm not talking about matching Stoke. I'm not talking about buying our way out of the division. I'm talking about matching Bolton or Ipswich and having a side equipped to survive.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, JHRover said:

Whatever it is it seems we haven't got it.

 

Well its you complaining about the budget? 

Any figures you can suggest?

I'm quite happy to wait and see who we sign. I can see why we need signings but you have see Mowbray's comments. His 1st targets are still available. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, JHRover said:

Ok then. Average ticket is £20 factoring in concessions. They get double what we do through the doors. That's about £6.5 million a year. They're supposedly paying that out on Waghorn alone. Where does the rest come from to fund their wage bill and other transfer business?

Ok, lets say £20

They get 15,000 more at a home game than us 

15,000 x £20 = £300,000

£300,000 x 23 home games= £6.9 million

They sold Weimann for 2.25 million and signed Jozefzoon for 3 million. I would imagine the difference in wages balanced that one. The rest of their signings have been loans.

They are looking to sell Vydra and have 2 bids in at around 10 million. 

 

[Mattyblue]

The Championship is not the division it was. It is now packed full of clubs like Derby, Forest, the two Sheffield clubs, Leeds, Villa, Norwich and so on, who all regularly attract crowds of 25,000+. I assume Stoke and possibly West Brom will add to that figure.

Therefore the best we can hope for is a season out of nowhere, a la Huddersfield or to end up with a model like Brentford and PNE that consistently has them in the top 8.

Is that a 'moneyball' approach or do we utilise the Academy more? The club needs to decide what its approach is long term, as having just a couple of young lads signed up 10 days before a season in a higher division , doesn't seem like a recipe for success to me and has exposed a level of naviety within the club to how the Championship of 2018 is rapidly evolving ... 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Mattyblue

[briansol]

Just now, JHRover said:

I'm not talking about matching Stoke. I'm not talking about buying our way out of the division. I'm talking about matching Bolton or Ipswich and having a side equipped to survive.

Bolton have only signed freebies and loans. Their players went on strike for missing payouts in June. They are even struggling to put together a squad with enough players.

Ipswich sold Webster for 4 million and spent less than half of that. They also haven't paid over a million pound for a player in several seasons. 

So basicly we are in the same playground as them.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, JHRover said:

I'm not talking about matching Stoke. I'm not talking about buying our way out of the division. I'm talking about matching Bolton or Ipswich and having a side equipped to survive.

 

4 minutes ago, JHRover said:

All the evidence at this point suggests it is true. Maybe I'll be wrong and I'll be man enough to hold my hands up if so but time is ticking.

So far we've 'spent' the equivalent of buying a house on Jack Walker Way and I very much doubt all that money is up front. I don't think that is a decent budget for a Championship football club supposedly wanting to kick on towards the Premier League.

Sounds like you are 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

The Championship is not the division it was. It is now packed full of clubs like Derby, Forest, the two Sheffield clubs, Leeds, Villa, Norwich and so on, who all regularly attract crowds of 25,000+. I assume Stoke and possibly West Brom will add to that figure.

Therefore the best we can hope for is a season out of nowhere, a la Huddersfield or to end up with a model like Brentford and PNE that consistently has them in the top 8.

Is that a 'moneyball' approach or do we utilise the Academy more? The club needs to decide what its approach is long term, as having just a couple of young signed up 10 days before a season in a higher division , doesn't seem like a recipe for success to me and has exposed a level of naviety within the club to how the Championship of 2018 is rapidly evolving ... 

 

We are using the academy in fairness, we could have Raya, Nyambe, Travis all starting the first game of the season , with Nutall on the bench 

[briansol]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

We are using the academy in fairness, we could have Raya, Nyambe, Travis all starting the first game of the season , with Nutall on the bench 

Don't forget Lenihan

[Mattyblue]

Indeed we are and if that is the approach then lets go with it. But I don't think that was the plan in June, so it will be out of necessity that Travis will be playing (possibly) and Nuttall will be pushing for a start. It has come about because the Championship has moved on and we haven't.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Mattyblue

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ok, lets say £20

They get 15,000 more at a home game than us 

15,000 x £20 = £300,000

£300,000 x 23 home games= £6.9 million

They sold Weimann for 2.25 million and signed Jozefzoon for 3 million. I would imagine the difference in wages balanced that one. The rest of their signings have been loans.

They are looking to sell Vydra and have 2 bids in at around 10 million. 

 

'Looking to sell' isn't selling. We're in a similar ball park on figures but you seem to be limiting it to this summer. Over the last 3-4 summers they have been one of the biggest spenders in the league and haven't taken money in through big sales. Darren Bent, Tom Ince, Tom Lawrence etc. It all mounts up and their net spend on transfers over the last 3-4 summers works out at a lot more. As does adding Waghorn and Marriott to your equation.

 

Just now, briansol said:

Bolton have only signed freebies and loans. Their players went on strike for missing payouts in June. They are even struggling to put together a squad with enough players.

Ipswich sold Webster for 4 million and spent less than half of that. They also haven't paid over a million pound for a player in several seasons. 

So basicly we are in the same playground as them.

You're right on Bolton who are in a bad way financially yet have still managed to bring in Donaldson, Wildschut and Wilson who can all 'do a job' in the Championship. More than we've done.

Ipswich have signed Harrison for £1 million+ and Edwards from Posh for a decent fee.

I think people are also forgetting that we need to improve as we are going up a level. Standing still isn't an option whereas it might be for someone like Ipswich who were comfortably mid-table Championship

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

 

Sounds like you are 

Eh? It's Mowbray and supposedly the owners who have said they want to get to the Premier League, not me. I don't think for one minute that the set-up we have here is appropriate for that target.

Edited July 25, 2018 by JHRover

[Pedro]

It's insane the amount of money being spent on bang average players. If I was the owner and it was was my money, to be honest I wouldn't want  millions into the hands of agents and average Joe's either.  Needless to say, the mainstream media inspired public will be far more appalled at the 'pay rise' that public sector workers are getting.  

Also, our low gates are affecting our transfer budgets too. If we can get higher gates, we could potentially have a better budget. In addition, a higher income means less of a threat of FFP.  It is all without a doubt Venkys' mess, but staying away from Ewood, not buying merchandise etc. punishes and pins the club down harder (I detach the 'club' from the owners as best I can) towards a non-competitive level and arguably, if that is what a supporter is doing - why are they surprised that we are scraping the barrell, wasn't that part of the NAPM plan?  

Time seems to be showing that boycotting in the hope that the Rao's will simply go away isn't working and maybe the theory that they'll only go when they have a much more saleable asset is more realistic.  Do we do whatever we can to improve the chances of the club??  Undoubtedly, the club itself needs the Rovers supporters and as many as we can get through the door as possible.  Failing that, I see the only other viable option is to sell our better players - again.

 

[BigBar]

It is all very grim lads ?..I'm oddly optimistic for the new season, I see a 12-16th place finish and for this year...ill take it ?

[Mattyblue]

Just now, Pedro said:

It's insane the amount of money being spent on bang average players. If I was the owner and it was was my money, to be honest I wouldn't want  millions into the hands of agents and average Joe's either.  Needless to say, the mainstream media inspired public will be far more appalled at the 'pay rise' that public sector workers are getting.  

 

 

Off topic but not true. Polling has shown that voters of all persusaions are in support of it.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, JHRover said:

'Looking to sell' isn't selling. We're in a similar ball park on figures but you seem to be limiting it to this summer. Over the last 3-4 summers they have been one of the biggest spenders in the league and haven't taken money in through big sales. Darren Bent, Tom Ince, Tom Lawrence etc. It all mounts up and their net spend on transfers over the last 3-4 summers works out at a lot more. As does adding Waghorn and Marriott to your equation.

 

You're right on Bolton who are in a bad way financially yet have still managed to bring in Donaldson, Wildschut and Wilson who can all 'do a job' in the Championship. More than we've done.

Ipswich have signed Harrison for £1 million+ and Edwards from Posh for a decent fee.

I think people are also forgetting that we need to improve as we are going up a level. Standing still isn't an option whereas it might be for someone like Ipswich who were comfortably mid-table Championship

Eh? It's Mowbray and supposedly the owners who have said they want to get to the Premier League, not me. I don't think for one minute that the set-up we have here is appropriate for that target.

So you can add Marriott and Waghorn to the equation even though they haven't signed, but  then go on to say I can't use Vydra in my equation as "looking to sell isn't selling"?  mmm....

Can you at least acknowledge that their gate receipts alone give them £7 million more than us to start with per season? 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[Roverthechimp]

24 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Whatever it is it seems we haven't got it.

There are lots of clubs in the Championship who have players under contract on decent wages, clubs who get gates of 15-20,000 a week, yet those clubs also spend in the transfer market. All those players bar Evans signed deals either under Mowbray or Coyle so ought to be on sensible Championship wages.

I'm as pleased as the next man that we haven't lost any big hitters from last season - yet - namely Dack. Lenihan and Mulgrew - but no evidence our resolve has been tested by way of bids given that Dack has never kicked a ball in the Championship, Mulgrew is out of contract next year and Lenihan spent most of last season in the treatment room.

Seriously? Coyle and sensible in the same sentence ?