Ben Brereton Diaz

[blueboy3333]

6 hours ago, Biz said:

6/7m is literally peanuts when you factor in we paid Dixon Etuhu nearly twice that in wages.

You literally made that up,  FFS!

[chaddyrovers]

34 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Against Leeds he did ok but he didnt offer any attacking threat, the work he did that was decent was very much in terms of game management, winning fouls etc. He wasnt an attacking danger. Every other time, hes looked poor there. But to be fair its not his position.

The reason that people are concerned when he doesnt play, and when he does, not in his correct position, is because he was the majority of our summer budget. It can easily be argued that even if he is effective wide, it is a luxury that we could not afford to sign a striker to be moulded into a wide man, when we are short up front, and also looking light at centre back and right back.

Thats nothing against Brereton himself, and at the moment all of the discussion around him is not in terms of his own abiliity, it is in terms of how the manager is using/misusing him. You yourself have commented more than once that you dont think he should be wide with Dack central, so id be interested to know what suddenly has changed your own personal mind, without repeating quotes from Mowbrays press conference today.

He was attacking threat against Leeds. 

I disagree we are light in the centre back and right back positions. 

Mowbray has said he sees at the minute as wide forward as Graham will be 1st choice and we cant argue against this. We all know he likes a wide forward in his 4-2-3-1 formation. 

Just now, roversfan99 said:

I personally think it will affect his confidence more playing out of position because hes less likely to replicate any performances that caused his reputation to increase at Forest.

You keep mentioning Bauer but Mowbray repeatedly bleated on about various lists throughout the summer, do even if your hypothesis is true about that deal not happening, he should have looked elsewhere IMO.

The fee thing has been done to death, but people will judge when we have a 7m luxury signing having rare out of position cameos whilst we are short in other areas. People will wonder if that money could have been spent elsewhere.

I never said we should sign Bamford, was just responding to Biz to justify his fee and wages.

Yes but its irrelevant because I can see with my own eyes, and having seen Dack play as a striker 3 times this week and Brereton in most of his cameos wide that neither experiment/tactic in my opinion is one I would continue, as both looked uncomfortable in unnatural positions.

I cant get my head around the fact that he is not even being considered in his natural position, hes solely being considered as a wide man when the alternatives are Dack, Palmer and Nuttall.

How do you know it will affect his confidence? 

He wanted Rothwell last January but he didn't get it done but still went back for him in the summer. I expect we do the same with Bauer. 

You can keep going on the money and other posters can aswell but we have done the deals we did. Cant change the past. 

Bamford was mention but he isn't a number 9 striker. 

How is it irrelevant? Manager has told you why he do it. How many other managers would do this? not many. 

Dack played there 3 times week? we haven't play this week

When did Mowbray say he wont be considered in his natural position. I read his comment that at the minute he will play wide if Graham is in the team unless we play 4-4-2 which we could tomorrow if Dack isn't fit. 

[blueboy3333]

Mowbray is on the defensive in the same way as he was about Gladwin. He can hardly hold his hands up and say 'I've paid £7m for a 19 year old striker who doesn't look like a striker and so I'm having to say he plays best out wide in order to buy him some time to develop', which he essentially is. He's already come out with the 'BB is brilliant in training' line in exactly the same way as he did about Gladwin. 

The problem is also that BB cost 10 times more than Dack. He cost 10 times more than nearly everyone at the club. That is ludicrous for a sub. It was clearly a desperation signing based on the fact Mogga had money to spend and he hadn't secured the likes of Celina and Freeman like he wanted to. There was a lot of money burning a hole in his pocket that Venky's were expecting him to be able to spend. Forest must be delighted.

He may turn out to be a genius signing but every time he goes on the pitch is looks an incredibly reckless piece of business on behalf of Venky's. If they don't mind then fair enough. 

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

He was attacking threat against Leeds. 

I disagree we are light in the centre back and right back positions. 

Mowbray has said he sees at the minute as wide forward as Graham will be 1st choice and we cant argue against this. We all know he likes a wide forward in his 4-2-3-1 formation. 

How do you know it will affect his confidence? 

He wanted Rothwell last January but he didn't get it done but still went back for him in the summer. I expect we do the same with Bauer. 

You can keep going on the money and other posters can aswell but we have done the deals we did. Cant change the past. 

Bamford was mention but he isn't a number 9 striker. 

How is it irrelevant? Manager has told you why he do it. How many other managers would do this? not many. 

Dack played there 3 times week? we haven't play this week

When did Mowbray say he wont be considered in his natural position. I read his comment that at the minute he will play wide if Graham is in the team unless we play 4-4-2 which we could tomorrow if Dack isn't fit. 

I disagree. Dont remember him having any shots or getting close to their net. Won a couple of good free kicks.

I know you do. Although you said we should sign a centre back earlier on so you clearly cant make your mind up.

We cant argue but we can give our own opinions even if they go against what Mowbray does or says. Stick to your own opinions, I wont tell Tony!

I dont, im suggesting that I think it might because he surely would play better in his actual position.

Maybe, if thats the case then sign someone on loan if that is the plan, or move onto another target. If Rothwell was a target in January, we signed Payne and Armstrong so we werent short regardless.

No, but it will forever be linked to him and part of judgements made about his signing in his own thread. We cant change games after theyve finished but we still discuss and debate them. Its a messageboard.

Ok.

Because I judge players with my own eyes after watching them.

Stop being pedantic. You know i mean when we played Leeds, Swansea and West Brom.

 

[JBiz]

30 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

You literally made that up,  FFS!

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/news/story/_/id/1129467/blackburn-rovers-sign-dickson-etuhu-from-fulham

4 year deal at reputed 30+k a week? Why do you think the clubs in so much debt..!

 

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/11273264.Paul_Wheelock_column__Blackburn_Rovers_hampered_by_wages_of_transfer_listed_players/

[blueboy3333]

27 minutes ago, Biz said:

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/news/story/_/id/1129467/blackburn-rovers-sign-dickson-etuhu-from-fulham

4 year deal at reputed 30+k a week? Why do you think the clubs in so much debt..!

 

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/11273264.Paul_Wheelock_column__Blackburn_Rovers_hampered_by_wages_of_transfer_listed_players/

Like I said, you made it up. We didn't pay Etuhu £12m-14m in wages.

[tomphil]

So when we are actually a spending club the model has gone from throwing obscene wages and long contracts at Prem has beens to chucking big money at young championship maybes.....

We need to be somewhere in the middle to be honest, whenever they've spent around a million on a player under this lot it's often tended to work out ok.

[Tom]

.

The thing is though it’s said the criticism is a sign of a modern fan but I remember Ferguson, Grabbi and Davies being questioned whilst being supported in the stadium. Even Rhodes who delivered the goods.

It may not be down to him but the fact is we’ve paid a good chunk of money for him and rightly there is an expectation to deliver based on that.

At least the lad has time on his side and when I asked a Forest supporting mate at work he said he was brilliant and they didn’t want to lose him so there must be something there, feel tomorrow could be the day for him

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I disagree. Dont remember him having any shots or getting close to their net. Won a couple of good free kicks.

we have to agree to disagree then

I know you do. Although you said we should sign a centre back earlier on so you clearly cant make your mind up.

I am happy currently with our options at centre back but I would like another centre back in with experience and being tall. We have 5 players who have played centre back during their career. I also think Downing will go in January

We cant argue but we can give our own opinions even if they go against what Mowbray does or says. Stick to your own opinions, I wont tell Tony!

totally rubbish and our comment wasn't need,. embarrassing that comment. We know how Mowbray like to play, and some people can understand what he saying and his methods. 

I dont, im suggesting that I think it might because he surely would play better in his actual position.

a load of rubbish that. You have no justification for that sort of comment. So why do you think it affect his confidence? have you ever spoken to him?

Maybe, if thats the case then sign someone on loan if that is the plan, or move onto another target. If Rothwell was a target in January, we signed Payne and Armstrong so we werent short regardless.

maybe the players that was available wasn't the sort of players he want due to the criteria he sets for signing for players. very easy for you to say move on from to another target from home isn't it? Also we signed Rodwell for that position as Mowbray's comments say

Stop being pedantic. You know i mean when we played Leeds, Swansea and West Brom.

if that what you meant then say the last 3 games not the last week. Not a mind reader We did get 4 points from those 3 games which I was very happy with considering their squad and how fancy by the pundits West Brom and Leeds are for the top 2 spots

 

I really hope Brereton scores tomorrow and we win. some of the crictism on here is well over the top and you can't blame him for the fee we are paying for him. I am very confident he will be good signing for us as long as people support him in the ground and we don't hear some of the negative shouts I heard at Stoke. Patience and time is need. Trust Mowbray to get the best out of him

[roversfan99]

23 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I really hope Brereton scores tomorrow and we win. some of the crictism on here is well over the top and you can't blame him for the fee we are paying for him. I am very confident he will be good signing for us as long as people support him in the ground and we don't hear some of the negative shouts I heard at Stoke. Patience and time is need. Trust Mowbray to get the best out of him

Everyone hopes that Brereton scores tomorrow and we win. And the majority of "recent criticism" has not been about the player himself. It has been about the way he has been used and the amount of money he cost in light of the other deficiencies in our squad and how differently we could have spent the money, no one has blamed him for the fee though, that doesnt make any sense. Whilst he continues to play out of position, the spotlight will be on Mowbray more so than Brereton himself.

I also dont need to meet Brereton as I never said it may affect his confidence based on his personality. It is based solely on playing anyone out of position, nothing to do with Brereton himself. I based my theory on if a player is placed somewhere aside from his natural position, he is less likely to play well. Simple as that.

Meaningless platitudes such as "patience and time is needed" and "trust Mowbray" will naturally fall on deaf ears on an internet messageboard, in a thread dedicated to the player in question. He will be judged like anyone else on a game by game basis, and even though the fans in general trust Mowbray, people will always trust what they see with their own eyes over anything else.

Edited November 3, 2018 by roversfan99

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

12 hours ago, Biz said:

I’m not criticising people for getting at him, I’m criticising their opinion as rash, ill thought out and brimming with over expectation.

So you’d prefer us to change formation to suit him?

Surely you'd have preferred us to spend £7 million on a player that can fit straight into our formation effectively?

[DeeCee]

I think he's deffo one for the future, TM has always said he was looking at another couple of transfer windows before we  were ready to challenge for promotion but also that over cautious TM wasn't expecting us to be doing as well as we are and maybe with hindsight (that wonderful thing) would instead have signed someone to impact the side immediately.

Edited November 3, 2018 by DeeCee

[JBiz]

6 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

Like I said, you made it up. We didn't pay Etuhu £12m-14m in wages.

I said nearly and if you take 35k a week, times it by 4 years, allow for NI and tax and a 10% signing on fee.. it’s not far off. The wage alone is 8m. I’d love to say I’d made up losing 20/30m on the likes of Dixon, Murphy, Best etc, but unfortunately it happened.

4 hours ago, Wing Wizard Windy Miller said:

Surely you'd have preferred us to spend £7 million on a player that can fit straight into our formation effectively?

In hindsight but I don’t know the wage structure or limits. I’m quite sure the club is moving in a better direction thus I trust they attempted to get cheaper or specific targets that slipped through the net. It’s never simple.

We signed a lot of players again, they aren’t all going to come off but the confusion for me with B.B. is the instant expectation due to the perceived cost. 

 

[JBiz]

5 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

It has been about the way he has been used and the amount of money he cost in light of the other deficiencies in our squad and how differently we could have spent the money, 

See this is what I mean about the sense of over expectation + entitlement of fans.

We aren’t even talking 3 months.

He still hasn’t started a league game.

It’s under the assumption he’s cost us 5m+ upfront. 

I dont assume that which likely changes my stance from the outset, regardless; The cost is probably going to end up be “cheap” if he has even the most marginal success here (English young strikers aren’t cheap).

Hindsight with injuries to other positions in the squad, is a wonderful thing too.

What about availability, interest and wages of other options like Mcgoldrick, Marriott, Bamford etc? 

We all want him to do well, I just expect it will take time for any teenager to gel into a squad, in a new area, with new facilities and a new manager and teammates. 

 

[Mattyblue]

Not a maths teacher I take it Bizzle? 

[arbitro]

I really don't get the describing of Brereton as a long term project. Long term projects are kids we sign on scholarships at sixteen and invest lots of time in them. For a Championship club with massive debts like ours paying a reported £7m should have bought us a player who can fit straight into the team in a position which he was bought to play in.

The fee was nothing to do with him but he doesn't seem to be handling the pressure too well judging from his body language when he does get some game time.

[blueboy3333]

54 minutes ago, Biz said:

I said nearly and if you take 35k a week, times it by 4 years, allow for NI and tax and a 10% signing on fee.. it’s not far off. The wage alone is 8m. I’d love to say I’d made up losing 20/30m on the likes of Dixon, Murphy, Best etc, but unfortunately it happened.

I'm aware of what happened I was just picking you up on a specific point. i.e. we paid 'nearly' double the amount on Etuhu's wages as we have on BB. I'm guessing we didn't even pay £7m as he had his contract terminated after 2 years by mutual consent which normally involves accepting a pay-off lower than the value of the remaining contract. 

Regardless, a Championship club spunking £7m on a sub who isn't even trusted to play in his preferred position is almost unheard of, even for the moneyed clubs in the division. Maybe Venky's are going to embark on a genuine push for the Prem and splash the cash for a season or two? Maybe BB is just the start...but as it stands it looks at very odd signing at the price quoted.

As you say, losing £30m on he garbage we previously signed happened and that's one of the reasons we are in hoc to Venky's to the tune of £120m+. With that in mind gambling £7m on BB seems illogical. At least when we spent £7m on Rhodes we were buying a genuine goal scorer. I don't even think Mogga knows what he's bought judging by his comments. Comparisons with AA are also futile when one cost £1.5m (a reasonable price) and BB cost £7m. Whatever way you look at it, £7m seems reckless. Only when he starts banging them in on a regular basis will it even look remotely good value. The same applies to AA in some ways, but for £1.5m it isn't such a gamble. 

Mogga will have to justify his signing of BB to Venky's at some point. My concern is he's going to lose their 'trust' if BB doesn't start contributing in the near future. 

Anyway, he'll score the winner today so it's all good....

 

[OJRovers]

A lot of people forgetting that he has come on to directly replace Graham, at Bristol City, played centrally and was awful. Didn't hold the ball up and we ended up losing heavily. I think after that, Mowbray hasn't trusted him to do the same job.

[47er]

1 hour ago, Biz said:

I said nearly and if you take 35k a week, times it by 4 years, allow for NI and tax and a 10% signing on fee.. it’s not far off. The wage alone is 8m. I’d love to say I’d made up losing 20/30m on the likes of Dixon, Murphy, Best etc, but unfortunately it happened.

In hindsight but I don’t know the wage structure or limits. I’m quite sure the club is moving in a better direction thus I trust they attempted to get cheaper or specific targets that slipped through the net. It’s never simple.

We signed a lot of players again, they aren’t all going to come off but the confusion for me with B.B. is the instant expectation due to the perceived cost. 

 

The higher the price the higher the expectation surely?

Also, its a helluva lot of money, even now, for a 19year old so why wouldn't there be high expectations? 

You're not making sense.

[JacknOry]

3 minutes ago, OJRovers said:

A lot of people forgetting that he has come on to directly replace Graham, at Bristol City, played centrally and was awful. Didn't hold the ball up and we ended up losing heavily. I think after that, Mowbray hasn't trusted him to do the same job.

We were dog awful all over the pitch for that game and already 2-1 down and well under the cosh when he was brought on. This was his first appearance for the club as well. I would let him have a run of games being brought on in that position so he can be judged accordingly rather than just being binned off as a striker after possibly the worst team performance we have put in for a year.

[philipl]

Everybody is missing the wood for the trees.

There is plenty of evidence from Pune that the owners would not have spent the £7m on Rovers in any other way. So people playing championship manager signing half a team with £7m instead of Brereton are missing the point- it was Brereton or nowt.

Personally I am glad he is here and while nothing is certain in football there is a much better than 50% chance he will be worth £7m as a 22 year old. If he comes as good as some videos and opposition fans suggest, that goes to £20m+.  If he loses it mentally under the £7m tag then his value drops. 

Let's look forwards to him blossoming here and hope he seizes his chances when they come. Remember MGP hardly got a single full game for almost a season after joining us.

[47er]

Just now, philipl said:

Everybody is missing the wood for the trees.

There is plenty of evidence from Pune that the owners would not have spent the £7m on Rovers in any other way. So people playing championship manager signing half a team with £7m instead of Brereton are missing the point- it was Brereton or nowt.

Personally I am glad he is here and while nothing is certain in football there is a much better than 50% chance he will be worth £7m as a 22 year old. If he comes as good as some videos and opposition fans suggest, that goes to £20m+.  If he loses it mentally under the £7m tag then his value drops. 

Let's look forwards to him blossoming here and hope he seizes his chances when they come. Remember MGP hardly got a single full game for almost a season after joining us.

Everybody but you eh Philip?

Where's your evidence for your 2nd sentence?

[JacknOry]

4 minutes ago, philipl said:

Everybody is missing the wood for the trees.

There is plenty of evidence from Pune that the owners would not have spent the £7m on Rovers in any other way. So people playing championship manager signing half a team with £7m instead of Brereton are missing the point- it was Brereton or nowt.

Personally I am glad he is here and while nothing is certain in football there is a much better than 50% chance he will be worth £7m as a 22 year old. If he comes as good as some videos and opposition fans suggest, that goes to £20m+.  If he loses it mentally under the £7m tag then his value drops. 

Let's look forwards to him blossoming here and hope he seizes his chances when they come. Remember MGP hardly got a single full game for almost a season after joining us.

Quite a claim tbh, I have not seen any 'evidence' that we were given 7 million only if we spent it on BB.

[rigger]

2 minutes ago, 47er said:

Everybody but you eh Philip?

Where's your evidence for your 2nd sentence?

There is no evidence for most statements or counter statements. Usually they are just incorrectly worded opinions.

[philipl]

Mrs D says very little but she has made it clear she would invest in young players.

An improbable £8m was produced for Jordan Rhodes to back up Shebby so it is only fair that Mowbray be backed with a big ticket signing.

As far as anything in football can be a sure thing, picking up an established under-20 England international who has the attributes of Brereton at his age looks like as safe a bet as you can find in football for protecting £7m.

Fans were debating Brereton or XYZ but I don't recall any noise coming out of the club to that effect.