Ben Brereton Diaz

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

2 minutes ago, JBiz said:

I disagree - we went for the likes of Bamford and Celina but couldn’t get near wage demands. Hence assumption the deal we did didn’t go beyond a budget.

My view then, people “ignored reality” when using the fee to expect instant success. 

Age, previous experience and him being 3rd or 4th choice on our shortlist suggested (at the time) to me that this was one for further down the line.

Celina cost £3m. Let's say he's on 30k over 4 years. That's another £6m. £9m in total.

BB cost £7m - Let's say he's on 15k over 4 years.  That's another £3m. £10m in total. 

Those wage figures are generously weighted against the point I'm making. I doubt Celina is on double what BB is on. 

There's no escaping the fact that the fee for BB  reflected how desperate Rovers were to sign somebody after missing out on all their main targets.

Even now we'd struggle to get £7m for him. He's had about 10 good games in a Rovers shirt in over 2 years. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Hoochie Bloochie Mama

[47er]

11 minutes ago, JBiz said:

My view then, people “ignored reality” when using the fee to expect instant success. 

 

I don't know that anyone expected "instant success' but what Brereton produced in his first two seasons came nowhere near success. He didn't look like a professional player at any level.

[roversfan99]

I dont even understand why it is being assumed that Celina was on high wages, he signed for Swansea when they were keen to reduce their wage bill so it was very unlikely that he went there on considerable wages. Indeed we didnt need a number 10 anyway.

Using the flex argument (even if we take it for granted that Breretons wages are not considerable, he wont be on peanuts either) to suggest that looking elsewhere may have meant that we couldnt have spent quite the same transfer fee, maybe thats got some logic in it. But lets not pretend that the finances used by Breretons fee and wages werent enough to start thinking about potential opportunity cost and alternative ways we could have spent it. No matter how it is spun, it was a big chunk of our resources.

[roversfan99]

Just now, 47er said:

I don't know that anyone expected "instant success' but what Brereton produced in his first two seasons came nowhere near success. He didn't look like a professional player at any level.

Its another flimsy argument. As you suggest, there was never an implication that we demanded a 7m instant success, the problem was that he wasnt even contributing even as a competent rotational player/back up, and he looked even worse than poor players like Samuel and Nuttall.

To be quite honest, such expectations even putting the fee aside for a player who had played over 50 games for Forest were fairly modest, he never even showed signs.

[JBiz]

17 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Yeah, and look what that has meant for our balance sheet. Hence my concern that he’s taken two years to properly get going, whatever the reasons. 
 

So basically, you’re agreeing that everyone is right to have an opinion and they all have a point? 

Yea, myself included

The balance sheet didn’t seem to be impacted much, over last 2/3 windows we’ve built continuously but always from a certain “pool” of players that don’t bust the wage bill.

[JBiz]

4 minutes ago, 47er said:

I don't know that anyone expected "instant success' but what Brereton produced in his first two seasons came nowhere near success. He didn't look like a professional player at any level.

Completely disagree with this level of criticism, and I personally wouldn’t be as arrogant to think I know what makes a player at this level, or at least how to spot potential.

[SBlue]

I reckon someone like Celina would've been and gone and wouldn't have got us up anyway.

By luck or judgement, Brereton has matured at the right time with the rest of the squad.

I don't see it as egg on anyone's face to have thought he was a dud, he didn't exactly pull any trees up.

So let's just all enjoy this cracking young player we have and lump on for him to score tonight.

[47er]

7 minutes ago, JBiz said:

Completely disagree with this level of criticism, and I personally wouldn’t be as arrogant to think I know what makes a player at this level, or at least how to spot potential.

You're reverting to type there Biz--when your arguments are crap, attack the poster.

I'm just expressing my view.

For 2 years he was utterly hopeless and you don't have to be a professional to have spotted that.

 

[JBiz]

Just now, 47er said:

You're reverting to type there Biz--when your arguments are crap, attack the poster.

I'm just expressing my view.

For 2 years he was utterly hopeless and you don't have to be a professional to have spotted that.

 

As previously mentioned - the minutes, starts and opportunities, in my view; prevented any supporter from making any full judgement. Hence the disagreement.

[47er]

He didn't get the minutes or the starts because he was so bad. Wasn't fair to the rest of the team or the supporters.

His "recovery" has been remarkable, we're all happy with him now, let's leave it at that.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

44 minutes ago, 47er said:

I don't know that anyone expected "instant success' but what Brereton produced in his first two seasons came nowhere near success. He didn't look like a professional player at any level.

There were times he looked like that lad who was chosen to appear in " The Big Time " tv programme. We've had other players in the past that have lacked technical ability but at least they put themselves about. His first two seasons were basically a write off. 

[Gone to seed]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

No, we signed him on a wing and a prayer!

Wing and a prayer eh? Er I thought this thread was about Brereton, not Gallager

[Hasta]

1 hour ago, JBiz said:

As previously mentioned - the minutes, starts and opportunities, in my view; prevented any supporter from making any full judgement. Hence the disagreement.

And in other peoples view it was easily enough time for him to show some potential, which he didn't. I never made a full judgement. I just kept saying that "on what I have seen so far he is pretty shite".  

I've never been one to not hold my hand up, and he's showing a lot more this season regularly being one of our better performers. 

I'm not actually sure what the argument is here to be honest. Brereton was poor for 2 seasons and, based on what we saw, many people said as much. Naturally then people give their opinion on whether  they think they will improve or make it. It has always happened with practically all players.  

If the argument is that he wasn't poor in those first 2 season then I completely disagree.

If the argument is that he is now proving effective and proving people wrong who said he'd never amount to anything, then I agree.

 

What I did get frustrated by was the fact someone like Chapman would get 10 minutes here, vanish for 4 months and then 10 minutes there, despite showing more for the Unders 23's,. Whereas Ben got a lot more chances. And that was purely because they needed to try to make sure their 'investment' wasn't being squandered, even if it was to the detriment of the team and performances. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Hasta

[TheRoversReturn]

The transfer fee does seem to overshadow his age. He's only 21. A couple of years younger than Lewis Travis who we think of as one of younger lads. A few years to reach Armstrong's age.

No doubt it's been a rollercoaster rather than a consistent upward trajectory, but he's been more consistent over the past six months than seemed possible before. He needs time to mature, to improve. 

The future's looking bright for Ben at Rovers. About time, sure, but now he's a first-team regular starter, we can expect to see him progressing before our eyes this season.

At least, that's the hope!  

[JBiz]

6 minutes ago, Hasta said:

 

If the argument is that he is now proving effective and proving people wrong who said he'd never amount to anything, then I agree.

 

 

I guess the summary of my overall view now would’ve been that this spell of improvement would probably come during a proper run of games to get match fit. Also after time due to age.

 

[oldjamfan1]

Its interesting that Millwall fans seem to have picked Ben out as a particular threat on their forums.

[TheRoversReturn]

3 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

Its interesting that Millwall fans seem to have picked Ben out as a particular threat on their forums.

He's been one of our best players for months now.

If he could just add a few more goals to his game, then he'd really cement the Ben 2.0 version that we're enjoying these days. 

[Hasta]

11 minutes ago, JBiz said:

I guess the summary of my overall view now would’ve been that this spell of improvement would probably come during a proper run of games to get match fit. Also after time due to age.

 

And likewise, he has only had a proper run of games because in the first couple of games this season he actually played well. If he had played well previously he would have had a run of games.

Otherwise let's drop Dolan and Elliot and throw Chapman in for 6 games to get match fit.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Hasta

[JBiz]

5 minutes ago, Hasta said:

And likewise, he has only had a proper run of games because in the first couple of games this season he actually played well. If he had played well previously he would have had a run of games.

Otherwise let's drop Dolan and Elliot and throw Chapman in for 6 games to get match fit.

He barely had a start in his first two seasons, yet in that time he’d been pronounced a dud.

He’s gradually had more impact in his chances, Bristol at home last season stick out, leading up to consecutive starts.

For all the mental gymnastics going on - no supporter, in my view, could’ve had a reasonable amount of evidence to make judgement. 
 

Yet they did, and here we are.

[Hasta]

1 minute ago, JBiz said:

He barely had a start in his first two seasons, yet in that time he’d been pronounced a dud.

He’s gradually had more impact in his chances, Bristol at home last season stick out, leading up to consecutive starts.

For all the mental gymnastics going on - no supporter, in my view, could’ve had a reasonable amount of evidence to make judgement. 
 

Yet they did, and here we are.

https://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php?/forums/topic/33524-ben-brereton/&do=findComment&comment=2141293

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Hasta

[JBiz]

5 minutes ago, Hasta said:

https://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php?/forums/topic/33524-ben-brereton/&do=findComment&comment=2141293

 

https://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php?/forums/topic/33524-ben-brereton/&do=findComment&comment=1904473

 

[Hasta]

23 minutes ago, JBiz said:

https://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php?/forums/topic/33524-ben-brereton/&do=findComment&comment=1904473

 

I posted my link as, rather than type it out again, my reply to you would have been the exact same reply I gave you you about an hour ago. Hence why I just linked to it. 

The comment you have linked to has no relevance to my post.

As I said in my post, I don't really understand what you are arguing here any more. Or if you are still arguing, I don't think your arguing with me. I think your arguing with other people but replying to my posts as though I hold the same viewpoint.  ?

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Hasta

[JBiz]

Just now, Hasta said:

I posted my link as, rather than type it out again, my reply to you would have been the exact same reply I gave you you about an hour ago. Hence why I just linked to it. 

The comment you have linked to has no relevance to my post.

As I said in my post, I don't really understand what you are arguing here any more. Or if you are still arguing, I don't think your arguing with me. I think your arguing with other people but replying to my posts.  ?

 

Arguing with whom? There’s no argument here, just individual opinions. 

My opinion in 2018 and 2019 was “he hasn’t had enough of a chance yet” and it’s now “he’s developing into a player through opportunity and potential”. For some this is hard to take seemingly!

As for responding with a link to a post I already replied too, utterly pointless.

[Hasta]

For your opinions in 2018 and 2019 you have obviously been proved correct. I've already said (in my linked post) " If the argument is that he is now proving effective and proving people wrong who said he'd never amount to anything, then I agree."  So I'm not sure who is finding your opinion "hard to take" but it's not me, hence why I think you are making a point to other posters in your replies to me.

14 hours ago, JBiz said:

 

We’re all buzzing one of our lads is performing well, that’s something we all agree on.

And here's another bit I agree on. Ultimately he's making a bit of a fool out of me at the moment and long may it continue. 

The only difference of opinions seems to be whether he improved for having a run of games, or had a run of games because he improved. 

[JBiz]

Just now, Hasta said:

For your opinions in 2018 and 2019 you have obviously been proved correct. I've already said (in my linked post) " If the argument is that he is now proving effective and proving people wrong who said he'd never amount to anything, then I agree."  So I'm not sure who is finding your opinion "hard to take" but it's not me, hence why I think you are making a point to other posters in your replies to me.

And here's another bit I agree on. Ultimately he's making a bit of a fool out of me at the moment and long may it continue. 

The only difference of opinions seems to be whether he improved for having a run of games, or had a run of games because he improved. 

That’s bit is the chicken and the egg - I seem to recall a comment from TM early days about needing to be fit enough, strong enough and full of the “Bennett or Evans“ effort and energy level if he is going to get more chances.

Post lockdown, he appeared to have physically matured imo.