Bristol City vs Blackburn Rovers, Sunday 1st September, 1.30pm KO

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, HowieFive0 said:

 

Wont be last hammering we take ..welcome to the Championship ..where every team can hammer  anyone ..

And where fans of every team that hammers another team convincingly will eulogise their team in praise, whereas teams that are hammered in abject fashion will be criticised by their fans.

[HowieFive0]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

And where fans of every team that hammers another team convincingly will eulogise their team in praise, whereas teams that are hammered in abject fashion will be criticised by their fans.

Of course ..its just the shock that some on here thinking it wont happen ..and when it does those not taking a deep breath and cutting a bit of slack to what league we re in before becoming ..Enraged from Ewood .

Massive leap this season .

[roversfan99]

19 minutes ago, HowieFive0 said:

Of course ..its just the shock that some on here thinking it wont happen ..and when it does those not taking a deep breath and cutting a bit of slack to what league we re in before becoming ..Enraged from Ewood .

Massive leap this season .

Again, taking criticism about an INDIVIDUAL match and both managerial decisions and player performances that may have caused the INDIVIDUAL thrashing and using them within a bigger picture to try and make a mockery of valid points.

You say its a massive leap, something that people are basically in universal agreement and understanding on. Believe you me, if we had lost 4-1 to Rochdale or Fleetwood then criticism would have been twice as strong.

You say cut a bit of slack, but people are commenting about ONE GAME in the appropriate match thread. Please highlight quotes whereby people are suggesting that they think we will struggle throughout the entire season, that there are questions about Mowbrays future, or anything that demonstrates anything other than criticism over an individual performance and result.

It might happen on occasion, but if it does, it will warrant criticism. Just as if we do it to someone else, we will get praise.

[Hasta]

1 hour ago, mick said:

. With the new players that TM is trying to integrate into the team, Rovers could be a complete change from what has been on view thus far. I, personally, am excited at the possibilities. 

I think defensively we are what we are - practically the same defence that got relegated 2 years ago.

[HowieFive0]

2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Again, taking criticism about an INDIVIDUAL match and both managerial decisions and player performances that may have caused the INDIVIDUAL thrashing and using them within a bigger picture to try and make a mockery of valid points.

You say its a massive leap, something that people are basically in universal agreement and understanding on. Believe you me, if we had lost 4-1 to Rochdale or Fleetwood then criticism would have been twice as strong.

You say cut a bit of slack, but people are commenting about ONE GAME in the appropriate match thread. Please highlight quotes whereby people are suggesting that they think we will struggle throughout the entire season, that there are questions about Mowbrays future, or anything that demonstrates anything other than criticism over an individual performance and result.

It might happen on occasion, but if it does, it will warrant criticism. Just as if we do it to someone else, we will get praise.

I already said that that any team can hammer any team in this league..as witnessed ..in ONE game  .,,,new kids on the block ..cut a bit of slack but by all means dissect a game .Hence what i say about any team can get a good hiding in his league. Where have i said anyone has said we ll struggle season  long ? i said its a massive leap and such results will occur over a season not just for us but for many teams in this league .

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, Hasta said:

I think defensively we are what we are - practically the same defence that got relegated 2 years ago.

As much as that is true in terms of individuals, im not sure that it is necessarily totally accurate.

We had Jason Steele, the worst keeper that I can remember, in goal for the majority of that season. Whilst I think that David Raya makes considerably more than an average amount of mistakes, he is definitely an upgrade on Steele.

Ryan Nyambe has developed considerably on the incredibly raw and nervy full back that emerged half way through that season. Derrick Williams remains at a similar level but we do have Amari'i Bell to give him a bit of competition.

Charlie Mulgrew and Darragh Lenihan had significant issues with injuries, albeit they are very prone to them and we would be lucky to see them both avoid injury throughout the season. They were also often wasted in midfield with the poor stand ins mentioned below asked to fill in at centre back.

We also have potentially better options that Jason Lowe, Danny Guthrie and Hope Akpan in central midfield, not that its difficult. Corry Evans has always shown quality in spells around being dogged by injury, we do also have Harrison Reed, after an impressive season at Norwich, Jacob Davenport who impressed at Burton but is only young, Elliott Bennett who wasnt considered to be a central midfielder at that time, Jack Rodwell who is very much a gamble and Richie Smallwood who there are big question marks about. Overall I think we do have better options in there however to protect the defence than we did 2 seasons ago.

The problem could lie in strength in depth. Mowbrays failure to sign a centre back this summer could come back to haunt him. That last season was riddled with incompetent stand-ins, Elliott Ward, Gordon Greer, Tommie Hoban, Wes Brown etc, whenever Mulgrew and Lenihan were injured or wasted in midfield. Whilst we have managed to ship out them 4, and although Mulgrew and Lenihan are permanent centre backs, we only have one player who can naturally cover, and in Paul Downing there are big question marks over his ability at this level.

[booth]

35 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I think defensively we are what we are - practically the same defence that got relegated 2 years ago.

This is the main worry. It does look as if Mowbray wants to score more than we concede for this season.

The other worry is putting all our eggs in one basket with Brereton when we could have spent that on a couple of solid championship players. I really hope that Brereton turns out to be worth it. Hard to judge him from yesterdays performance.

[den]

2 minutes ago, booth said:

This is the main worry. It does look as if Mowbray wants to score more than we concede for this season.

You see a problem with that Booth?  Isn’t that the general idea?

Edited September 3, 2018 by den

[roversfan99]

4 minutes ago, booth said:

This is the main worry. It does look as if Mowbray wants to score more than we concede for this season.

The other worry is putting all our eggs in one basket with Brereton when we could have spent that on a couple of solid championship players. I really hope that Brereton turns out to be worth it. Hard to judge him from yesterdays performance.

I dont necessarily think that Mowbray is at all too attacking in terms of his set up, 2 defensive midfielders and one winger whose in the team primarily to defend could be seen as very cautious.

When we look organised, as we have done 3 times, we seem to keep clean sheets. In the other 3 games, weve conceded 8 goals. We seem to be either well drilled or all over the show. 

[Hasta]

43 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

As much as that is true in terms of individuals, im not sure that it is necessarily totally accurate.

We had Jason Steele, the worst keeper that I can remember, in goal for the majority of that season. Whilst I think that David Raya makes considerably more than an average amount of mistakes, he is definitely an upgrade on Steele.

Ryan Nyambe has developed considerably on the incredibly raw and nervy full back that emerged half way through that season. Derrick Williams remains at a similar level but we do have Amari'i Bell to give him a bit of competition.

Charlie Mulgrew and Darragh Lenihan had significant issues with injuries, albeit they are very prone to them and we would be lucky to see them both avoid injury throughout the season. They were also often wasted in midfield with the poor stand ins mentioned below asked to fill in at centre back.

 

The problem could lie in strength in depth. Mowbrays failure to sign a centre back this summer could come back to haunt him. That last season was riddled with incompetent stand-ins, Elliott Ward, Gordon Greer, Tommie Hoban, Wes Brown etc, whenever Mulgrew and Lenihan were injured or wasted in midfield. Whilst we have managed to ship out them 4, and although Mulgrew and Lenihan are permanent centre backs, we only have one player who can naturally cover, and in Paul Downing there are big question marks over his ability at this level.

Agree with most of that, and Raya is certainly a step up on Steele. However we spent around £10million in this window, brought in a decent number of new playersand yet didn't bring in one central defender - despite Bauer seemingly being one of our first targets. We still have two centre halves who got caught out aerially several times last year and could really be show up in their weakness in that area this season

My post was in response to Mick saying that "once TM has integrated the new players it could be a complete change from what we have seen so far". In midfield and attack we have many options and, like last season, it may take a couple of months to blend. However defensively I don't see how that can be the case. I think we know what we have.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Hasta

[jim mk2]

32 minutes ago, booth said:

This is the main worry. It does look as if Mowbray wants to score more than we concede for this season.

 

Historically Mowbray's teams have always played that way. Fans of Celtic and West Brom will say the same. Attractive football but always likely to concede goals. He needs to change and become a more pragmatic manager. The win over Brentford showed the way. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by jim mk2

[tomphil]

I've heard that said about TMs teams before but mostly in his time at Rovers i'd very much say he was quite pragmatic certainly in his approach to most games from the first whistle. He's often opened it up later in games but he's approached most cautiously from the off imo there were times last season particularly at home where we should have been trying to steamroll teams but let them grab an early foothold. Whenever he let them off the leash early they looked great and usually won.

Obviously it'll need to be different this season but if he wanted to be solid and really pragmatic his signings would've been different, by the same token if he wanted a flair team they would've as well.  What we have is something bang in the middle.

[roversfan99]

28 minutes ago, Hasta said:

Agree with most of that, and Raya is certainly a step up on Steele. However we spent around £10million in this window, brought in a decent number of new playersand yet didn't bring in one central defender - despite Bauer seemingly being one of our first targets. We still have two centre halves who got caught out aerially several times last year and could really be show up in their weakness in that area this season

My post was in response to Mick saying that "once TM has integrated the new players it could be a complete change from what we have seen so far". In midfield and attack we have many options and, like last season, it may take a couple of months to blend. However defensively I don't see how that can be the case. I think we know what we have.

Agreed. I think in terms of summer recruitment, all 3 of the 7 players to have started a game since signing (Palmer, Rothwell and Armstrong) have shown signs that they can contribute, and on paper, I think in terms of individual quality, most should be able to have an impact on our season.

But it isnt quality I have potential doubts over, it is the balance of the recruitment. Going into the summer, we needed a centre back to push the main 2 we have, we needed width, we needed a couple of attackers, we needed someone to come into central midfield, and we needed someone to take the creative burden off Dack.

In signing 7 players, 3 of whom are defensive midfielders, 2 of whom are natural centrally attacking players and 2 of whom are forwards, we have addressed quite a few of the above needs, but not all of them, suggesting a slight imbalance in our dealings. Ideally we could have signed a winger and a centre back aswell as the above, giving us a very healthy squad, something which I presume wasnt beyond the realms of possibility if we was chasing Chapman on deadline day. If not, then surely at least one of the 3 defensive midfielders could have been sacrificed.

I personally think that Mulgrew and Lenihan are better in the air than you have given them credit for, and I wouldn't be in any rush to replace them in the starting 11, fitness permitting, anytime soon. That said, we certainly need more options in that area than we currently have.

[booth]

1 hour ago, den said:

You see a problem with that Booth?  Isn’t that the general idea?

It is but I can't see us doing it regularly with that defence. Is our attacking line up strong enough to make up for our defensive frailties? We've just taken an expensive gamble on a young lad who has never been prolific, perhaps if we had picked up someone with more of a track record I'd be more confident.

When I say score more than concede, by that I mean he's expecting to concede one or two on average per game. Either that or he believes a league 1 defence can cut it over a season in a superior league.

Edited September 3, 2018 by booth

[USABlue]

13 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

With regard to his subs he gambled to try to get something from the game.  When he doesn't he's often accused of being negative.  The poor guy can't win.

I honestly haven't seen anything thus far that suggests that Rovers can't finish in somewhere between 9th or 15th in this League.  Not challenging for promotion but not involved in a relegation scrap.  We have a decent squad when everyone is fit and the new players are up to speed.  Of course we'll lose games this season - the opposition is that much better - and there may be times when we might drift uncomfortably close to the wrong end but on what I've seen so far I have no doubt we will be fine come next May.

Our finishing.  If we do not get to be more clinical we are going to keep losing games.  Better finushing and we would be looking at 6 more points in the board.

  I only listened to the game but it did not sound like the thumping it was.  Had we taken our chances and nit had the obligatory refereeing assist for Bristol this thread would have a lot less posts and we would be talking play offs.

Dumbfounded Rothwell did not get a start.  Mowbary himself talks about earning and playing to keep the shirt.  Well I think Smallwood has not done enough to keep it and Rothwell has done enough to take it.  

Better finishing, cut out individual errors and we will do as Pardon says.  Keep squandering chances and gifting opportunities and it will be a struggle.

On a side note.  Anyone else listen to Ifollow that.did not like the bloke doing the commentary.  I hope this was a temporary change only.

  

[USABlue]

12 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

lesser-spotted 'pacey winger' of folklore

Funny that.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Having watched the goals again, rather than blame tactics, subs etc, the fact is that Lenihan was utter cack for their second and third goals, completely at sea for both of them. Who’d be a manager.

[Fraserkirky]

59 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Having watched the goals again, rather than blame tactics, subs etc, the fact is that Lenihan was utter cack for their second and third goals, completely at sea for both of them. Who’d be a manager.

The boy is obviously a good player, but if he is going out there every week and getting gubbed by fat strikers then Rodwell better get his shinguards on.

[tomphil]

This is what we have to get used to again though at this level, they want young players in to keep the wage bill down, gain valuable experience so they get better and probably the main factor increase in value. Replacing with ready made championship players costs money and bigger wages ....money that's gone elsewhere.

It's going to be a very testing season for that back line indeed hence why he'll probably always prefer to start with two defensive mids as usual.

Edited September 4, 2018 by tomphil

[Bigdoggsteel]

Speaking of our centre halves, I am a bit worried. They are 2 converted midfielders playing in a rough, physical position. Mulgrew isn't a hard ass, he is a classy footballer. Lenihan is tough, but looking at him at times I wonder how he got away with playing midfield, he looks uncomfortable on the ball, maybe nerves. Neither are the biggest either. 

Now, Boro went to Bristol city and won 0-2. This was their backline

Shotton (6ft 3in) Flint (6ft 6in) Fry (6ft 4in) Friend (6ft 2 in)

That right there is why they will be in the mix for automatic promotion. Imagine that backline with our forward players? We would be looking at top 2 as a reality.  

[roversfan99]

26 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Speaking of our centre halves, I am a bit worried. They are 2 converted midfielders playing in a rough, physical position. Mulgrew isn't a hard ass, he is a classy footballer. Lenihan is tough, but looking at him at times I wonder how he got away with playing midfield, he looks uncomfortable on the ball, maybe nerves. Neither are the biggest either. 

Now, Boro went to Bristol city and won 0-2. This was their backline

Shotton (6ft 3in) Flint (6ft 6in) Fry (6ft 4in) Friend (6ft 2 in)

That right there is why they will be in the mix for automatic promotion. Imagine that backline with our forward players? We would be looking at top 2 as a reality.  

Saying that Lenihan is a converted midfielder is doing him a slight disservice as much as it is true. Hes never a central midfielder and looked out of his depth when played there. His main weakness is on the ball, hes pretty good in the air, hes brave, hes definitely a centre back and should never be used in midfield again. He struggled to hold a place over the likes of Lowe and Akpan, it was when he was moved back (something that isnt alien to him coming through the ranks) that he stepped up a notch or 2.

Mulgrews ball playing style takes away from the fact that hes a very capable defender, and physically on numerous occasions came to the forefront last season. He obviously was far more versatile when younger at Celtic but I'm sure Celtic fans said when he can here that hes a good signing but only as a centre back. Apparently had some shockers in Europe and for Scotland in midfield.

Pulis likes having essentially 4 centre backs as a back 4. Always has done.

11 hours ago, USABlue said:

Our finishing.  If we do not get to be more clinical we are going to keep losing games.  Better finushing and we would be looking at 6 more points in the board.

  I only listened to the game but it did not sound like the thumping it was.  Had we taken our chances and nit had the obligatory refereeing assist for Bristol this thread would have a lot less posts and we would be talking play offs.

Dumbfounded Rothwell did not get a start.  Mowbary himself talks about earning and playing to keep the shirt.  Well I think Smallwood has not done enough to keep it and Rothwell has done enough to take it.  

Better finishing, cut out individual errors and we will do as Pardon says.  Keep squandering chances and gifting opportunities and it will be a struggle.

On a side note.  Anyone else listen to Ifollow that.did not like the bloke doing the commentary.  I hope this was a temporary change only.

  

Mowbray showed a lot of loyalty in the summer handing out contracts and never straying from saying that new signings were to help the players who got us promoted. That said, I do hope over the season that loyalty alone doesnt hold much weight. Smallwood has for me already ran out of credit in terms of starting, Reed and Davenport potentially both deserve a chance before Smallwood is obviously given another start. Bennett still has some credit in the bank and has had a couple of impressive performances, especially v Brentford but I do expect him to improve in an attacking sense. 

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Speaking of our centre halves, I am a bit worried. They are 2 converted midfielders playing in a rough, physical position. Mulgrew isn't a hard ass, he is a classy footballer. Lenihan is tough, but looking at him at times I wonder how he got away with playing midfield, he looks uncomfortable on the ball, maybe nerves. Neither are the biggest either. 

Now, Boro went to Bristol city and won 0-2. This was their backline

Shotton (6ft 3in) Flint (6ft 6in) Fry (6ft 4in) Friend (6ft 2 in)

That right there is why they will be in the mix for automatic promotion. Imagine that backline with our forward players? We would be looking at top 2 as a reality.  

Going to take them time to get to grips with it I think as we've seen so far they'll be fine against half the teams in this division but will struggle and get exposed regularly against good teams/players.

This is where we are at though i'm flabbergasted he's never added another good centre half to the books we've been crying out for years I understand they want to grow a team of younger players (probably to fire sale again). Adding a good solid defender to the books who might make one place his own is an important building block 'if' the aim is to build a team to challenge the top 6 spots but that would mean dropping one of the other two if someone earned that shirt, TM not keen on that he has an established pecking order.

[Dreams of 1995]

You'd imagine a centre half is next on the shopping list. We desperately need a forward this summer as Graham's days are numbered hence the spend on a young lad with potential. He's here now and the next player needing replacing is Mulgrew. He is a class act but we have to be realistic and acknowledge he's in the twilight of his career.

You can get a very good centre back for £7-10m. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

Going to take them time to get to grips with it I think as we've seen so far they'll be fine against half the teams in this division but will struggle and get exposed regularly against good teams/players.

This is where we are at though i'm flabbergasted he's never added another good centre half to the books we've been crying out for years I understand they want to grow a team of younger players (probably to fire sale again). Adding a good solid defender to the books who might make one place his own is an important building block 'if' the aim is to build a team to challenge the top 6 spots but that would mean dropping one of the other two if someone earned that shirt, TM not keen on that he has an established pecking order.

And which one of the 2 would you drop? Established pecking order, not sure. He is loyal to the players who did it last year, but I don't see that as a bad thing. I would imagine he will eventually have to move Smallwood from the starting 11. I can't see him having blind loyalty. He is practical. Our lack of competition at centre half is a big concern  

As for wanting to grow a team of young players, that's an awful negative slant you have put on it  

Edited September 4, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

And which one of the 2 would you drop? Established pecking order, not sure. He is loyal to the players who did it last year, but I don't see that as a bad thing. I would imagine he will eventually have to move Smallwood from the starting 11. I can't see him having blind loyalty. He is practical. Our lack of competition at centre half is a big concern  

As for wanting to grow a team of young players, that's an awful negative slant you have put on it  

Not a case of dropping one it's having another GOOD one on the books who'll step in and try and claim the shirt when the opportunity arises then keep it as long as he's doing enough. Downing is ok back up but you know he's just that, he might get a run if playing well but first opportunity he'll be out again.

No nothing wrong with pecking order that's a good thing but you want quality in key positions so the rest of the team can grow around them but there's only Mulgrew with pedigree in that position there's no quality backing up or competing with either.

As for the so called negative slant I'm a realist so i'd term it realistic ?