Champions League 2018-2019

[DeeCee]

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

The only people who will like VAR are the beneficiaries.

Amen to that

[DE.]

In fairness we are still in the very early stages of VAR. I think in the next few years there will be a huge improvement in the technology and how it's integrated into the game, but in the process there are going to be some bumps in the road. It's easy to say "it should have been tested more before putting it into big matches", but at some point you have to put it out there on the big stage to see where the issues lie. It's not going to be the same as trying it out in random minor leagues. You aren't going to get the same type of reaction to a worldwide televised VAR decision in a big match that you'd get in a non-televised, barely viewed League Two match. 

Most big sports have a form of video refereeing and it has ultimately been a positive, and I think eventually that will be the case in football too. The game was so late to the party though that change is difficult and the system will require some continuous tweaking before being largely accepted and appreciated.

[JacknOry]

That Pep clips shows everything that is wrong with VAR. It was an epic match and the whole VAR aspect ruined what would have been a massive moment for most fans. To be in pure euphoria for so many minutes which then turns to despair (or vice versa btw) after such a long wait just takes away from the moments and the events. With just a ref if its either given or not pretty much on the spot - yes they get it wrong but thats what football has been about since year dot. 

People always scrutinized referee decisions and VAR is meant to do away with that by making the correct decision each time - except even VAR decisions are getting scrutinized anyway. 

[Beanie01289]

12 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

That Pep clips shows everything that is wrong with VAR. It was an epic match and the whole VAR aspect ruined what would have been a massive moment for most fans. To be in pure euphoria for so many minutes which then turns to despair (or vice versa btw) after such a long wait just takes away from the moments and the events. With just a ref if its either given or not pretty much on the spot - yes they get it wrong but thats what football has been about since year dot. 

People always scrutinized referee decisions and VAR is meant to do away with that by making the correct decision each time - except even VAR decisions are getting scrutinized anyway. 

It was a massive moment for spurs fans tho and like it or not as the rules currently stand the goal was correctly ruled out. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Phil Thompson was on the radio over here the other day, he made a very good point about VAR removing the emotion and buzz for fans. His argument was in the past your team scored, bang, you get that high and celebrate like crazy. Now and going forward there will always be a delay where the decision has to go to VAR, so you will wait and then maybe celebrate. 

It's obviously good that more decisions will be be correct, but at what cost? Then you need to add in the subjective calls that you could argue are wrong even after VAR. 

[bazza]

I'm glad it was City and not Rovers. I would have been devastated had that happened to us.

[JacknOry]

Just now, bazza said:

I'm glad it was City and not Rovers. I would have been devastated had that happened to us.

Imagine it happening in a final, or in a title clinching match where the team and fans are deliriously celebrating only to be told five minutes later that VAR reviewed it and you're no longer the league champions. 

[DE.]

I don't think it's that much different to fans cheering when an offside goal is scored, only to quieten down when the linesman raises his flag. In theory VAR shouldn't need to be implemented any more than that, and certainly not for every goal. We've had goals ultimately given as offside (or fouls, handball, etc) wildly cheered for decades so I'm not sure VAR will change things that much. It's basically the same thing, just theoretically more accurate than a ref/linesman giving the call. 

Just as an example, let's say just after or just before Sterling scores against City the offside flag is raised. Does that change anything in relation to how the celebrations happened? Nope. A few people might catch the offside flag being up, but most will be focused on the play and not immediately know the flag is up. The ref would then need to go over to the linesman and have a debate before deciding whether to award the goal or not. However there would have been significantly more pressure on the officials to have got it right, which means they probably err on the side of "I'm not sure" and end up giving an illegal goal, sending City through to the semis despite scoring a goal that shouldn't have stood. You get the same thing with VAR, except the fear of making a mistake is taken out of the equation somewhat as the decision is being made with far more information to hand. 

I know nowadays the mentality is "win at all costs and fuck everybody else", but sport is supposed to be proving that you are the best by playing to the rules. If you win through cheating then in reality it's a hollow victory. I appreciate I'm probably in the minority thinking that, but for me if VAR means that the rules of the sport are more fairly implemented then so be it. I don't see how football retains its integrity if the rules are only implemented as long as they don't get in the way of spectators celebrating. 

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Phil Thompson was on the radio over here the other day, he made a very good point about VAR removing the emotion and buzz for fans. His argument was in the past your team scored, bang, you get that high and celebrate like crazy. Now and going forward there will always be a delay where the decision has to go to VAR, so you will wait and then maybe celebrate. 

It's obviously good that more decisions will be be correct, but at what cost? Then you need to add in the subjective calls that you could argue are wrong even after VAR. 

My reason for disliking it is based on the assumption that eventually the teething problems will be ironed out and it works as efficiently as it can, something I of course doubt in itself because of the subjectivity of what is an obvious error. It is because of the effect it has on the spontaneity and the emotion of the game, as you touch on. 

[DE.]

I actually think the debate is pointing in the wrong direction by solely looking at VAR. I think to a large degree it's the rules of the game itself that are causing problems. Offside, as an example, was introduced to stop players goal hanging. If a player is blatantly standing behind the defensive line then it's fair to classify them as offside. Should it also be called if we're talking about a player's knee being marginally ahead of a defensive player though? Has it given the player a significant enough advantage that it should be ruled illegal? For me that's where the crux of the debate lies, and you could say the same for handball. These rules have been made so tight over the years that they've arguably become self-defeating as it's less about whether a significant advantage has been gained and more about implementing a rule by technicality. If Aguero had been miles behind the Spurs defence when he got played through I don't think many people would be complaining that VAR ruled it out, irrespective of celebrations, emotion, etc. It's mainly because it was such a tight call that people are asking whether it should have been given. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 minute ago, DE. said:

I don't think it's that much different to fans cheering when an offside goal is scored, only to quieten down when the linesman raises his flag. In theory VAR shouldn't need to be implemented any more than that, and certainly not for every goal. We've had goals ultimately given as offside (or fouls, handball, etc) wildly cheered for decades so I'm not sure VAR will change things that much. It's basically the same thing, just theoretically more accurate than a ref/linesman giving the call. 

Just as an example, let's say just after or just before Sterling scores against City the offside flag is raised. Does that change anything in relation to how the celebrations happened? Nope. A few people might catch the offside flag being up, but most will be focused on the play and not immediately know the flag is up. The ref would then need to go over to the linesman and have a debate before deciding whether to award the goal or not. However there would have been significantly more pressure on the officials to have got it right, which means they probably err on the side of "I'm not sure" and end up giving an illegal goal, sending City through to the semis despite scoring a goal that shouldn't have stood. You get the same thing with VAR, except the fear of making a mistake is taken out of the equation somewhat as the decision is being made with far more information to hand. 

I know nowadays the mentality is "win at all costs and fuck everybody else", but sport is supposed to be proving that you are the best by playing to the rules. If you win through cheating then in reality it's a hollow victory. I appreciate I'm probably in the minority thinking that, but for me if VAR means that the rules of the sport are more fairly implemented then so be it. I don't see how football retains its integrity if the rules are only implemented as long as they don't get in the way of spectators celebrating. 

You can see already though that players are going to the ref calling for VAR for every decision that goes against them. If refs aren't strong, this is just going to end up at a ridiculous point. I am just concerned because when you look at dissent for example, it doesn't happen in Rugby,but it does in football. If VAR goes down the same route, it will be very bad. 

 

[Stuart]

18 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

Imagine it happening in a final, or in a title clinching match where the team and fans are deliriously celebrating only to be told five minutes later that VAR reviewed it and you're no longer the league champions. 

Which is why it needs to be quicker. Immediate even. Had VAR immediately called offside against Aguero before the ball was in the net there would have been none of this.

The trouble is that football had already introduced a new rule to counter offside interruptions and that is the “phase of play” rule. For VAR to work it needs to be immediate and not wait for a ruling on the build up, after the event.

Very soon, every goal will be ruled on to see if anything went on in the build up. A handball that hasn’t been spotted; a stray arm in an offside position based on a freeze-frame; a nudge that is later deemed too strong and is retrospectively called a foul.

The real issue on Wednesday, which has been quietly overlooked is: why didn’t the linesman flag for offside? Was it that he didn’t dare and figured that VAR would make the call? If VAR is to be used for offsides then it needs to replace linesmen, not be their crutch.

Ultimately the decision was correct but even as a neutral it went from “what a moment!” to “oh, what a let down”. Even Sky Sports updated their “live” commentary to erase what had just happened.

It is the right idea but badly executed.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Stuart said:

Which is why it needs to be quicker. Immediate even. Had VAR immediately called offside against Aguero before the ball was in the net there would have been none of this.

The trouble is that football had already introduced a new rule to counter offside interruptions and that is the “phase of play” rule. For VAR to work it needs to be immediate and not wait for a ruling on the build up, after the event.

Very soon, every goal will be ruled on to see if anything went on in the build up. A handball that hasn’t been spotted; a stray arm in an offside position based on a freeze-frame; a nudge that is later deemed too strong and is retrospectively called a foul.

The real issue on Wednesday, which has been quietly overlooked is: why didn’t the linesman flag for offside? Was it that he didn’t dare and figured that VAR would make the call? If VAR is to be used for offsides then it needs to replace linesmen, not be their crutch.

Ultimately the decision was correct but even as a neutral it went from “what a moment!” to “oh, what a let down”. Even Sky Sports updated their “live” commentary to erase what had just happened.

It is the right idea but badly executed.

Indeed and to add on your point, where does the "looking back" end? What if a team scores, but 60 seconds earlier at the beginning of the phase of play that led to the goal , there was a foul throw. Do they go back and check that? If not, why? 

I am for it in theory and I know it is early days, but this needs to be done right, with clear parameters. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[DE.]

At the moment I think VAR should only be implemented for blatant injustices. For example Henry's handball for France a few years ago that sent them through at the expense of Ireland. Stuff like that ruins the integrity of the sport. An accidental handball or marginal offside doesn't. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, DE. said:

At the moment I think VAR should only be implemented for blatant injustices. For example Henry's handball for France a few years ago that sent them through at the expense of Ireland. Stuff like that ruins the integrity of the sport. An accidental handball or marginal offside doesn't. 

Nice example  Heartbreaking stuff that was.  Not sure if ye know this, but FIFA paid the FAI €5 million to drop the issue. I don't know who is dodgier. 

It will probably need to be 1-3 guys in a room somewhere in the stadium looking at the footage who make the call so. Not sure this ref running over to look at the screen at the side of the pitch scenario is the way to go. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[SBlue]

2 minutes ago, DE. said:

At the moment I think VAR should only be implemented for blatant injustices. For example Henry's handball for France a few years ago that sent them through at the expense of Ireland. Stuff like that ruins the integrity of the sport. An accidental handball or marginal offside doesn't. 

I’d call it an injustice if Spurs had gone out because of an offside goal...

 

1 hour ago, JacknOry said:

Imagine it happening in a final, or in a title clinching match where the team and fans are deliriously celebrating only to be told five minutes later that VAR reviewed it and you're no longer the league champions. 

Doubt it will ever effect us tbh ?

[DE.]

An injustice yes, but not blatant cheating. You can accept a marginal offside as your team has probably benefitted from the same thing in the past, but purposefully handling the ball into the net or diving with absolutely no contact is a different thing altogether imo. 

[Proudtobeblue&white]

Very impressed with the Spanish referee tonight, having said that two teams who aren't simulating as much as perhaps other countries teams do. Ajax have been excellent,

[speeeeeeedie]

15 hours ago, Proudtobeblue&white said:

Very impressed with the Spanish referee tonight, having said that two teams who aren't simulating as much as perhaps other countries teams do. Ajax have been excellent,

They have. They started like a house on fire last night. Spurs didn't know what to do. In the end they were lucky to only lose 1-0.

Spurs were a bit toothless up front, but that was unsurprising with both Kane and Son out. Pochettino will have them ready next week, but Ajax are a talented bunch.

Any news on Vertongen? He was ready to go back on then his legs buckled.

[Proudtobeblue&white]

Just now, speeeeeeedie said:

They have. They started like a house on fire last night. Spurs didn't know what to do. In the end they were lucky to only lose 1-0.

Spurs were a bit toothless up front, but that was unsurprising with both Kane and Son out. Pochettino will have them ready next week, but Ajax are a talented bunch.

Any news on Vertongen? He was ready to go back on then his legs buckled.

Manager confirmed he was okay.

[DE.]

I was very impressed by Ajax last night. Pretty sad that their team will be completely broken up over the summer by the big boys, some of whom they've put to shame with their football this year. 

[speeeeeeedie]

The Dutch league cancelled their program last weekend to give Ajax time to prepare, whilst Spurs sputtered against West Ham. Pochettino had a good moan about it. The Ajax manager's retort was along the lines of well we can't compete with your budget so have to find other ways of levelling the playing field.

[Proudtobeblue&white]

Another excellent referee tonight, letting things flow, and not playing the Barca game of their rolling round for no reason other than to get Liverpool players booked. Milner bumped into Messi, who nearly rolled to the Mersey.

[Husky]

Can Liverpool still win the fair play league? ?

[Proudtobeblue&white]

I've little time for Liverpool, but Barca's awful tactics at times almost make me sympathetic! Anyway Messi gets a tap in, 2-0, Liverpool need an away goal at least.