Attendances

[arbitro]

Just now, Leonard Venkhater said:

I am starting to wonder whether it might be less about being clueless and more about arrogance, refusal to listen and join up the dots. 

He might have dug himself into a hole in India by overselling  what he could do with attendances....

Lets hope he can develop some listening skills...quickly!

I agree Leonard. His arrogance was in believing that after one season of success the lapsed fans would come flooding back forgetting the previous six seasons of virtual purgatory engineered by the owners. So he stupidly puts the prices up and closes the Darwen End. I get the impression he sold this warped vision to the Indians during the summer visit and he is fearful of being questioned by them when he visits them in November.

John Williams valued the advice from supporters and put quite a lot of this into practice. Whilst Waggott meets with fans groups regularly does he listen to them and value their input?

[Bigdoggsteel]

5 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

'Waggott believes enticing people back through the home turnstiles isn’t simply a case of reducing prices.' It seemed to work for the Oxford game last season yes I know that people went for a promotion party but at full price I think that there would have been at the very maximum 20000. I'm not suggesting that we charge a tenner a match (although it would be an idea to do that for a game or two a season). I'd get rid of the stupid categories and charge £20 for the Riverside and £22 for the Jack Walker and Blackburn End and midweek games I'd charge £15 & £17.  Also get rid of the stupid increase for paying on the day. Unless we lower the prices then you aren't going to see a regular rise in home attendances.

I suspect cost isn't the main reason. The odd £10  game would lead to an increase in attendance, but I bet if the ticket prices were £10 for every game, there wouldn't be a huge jump in attendances long-term 

They should definitely reduce price for mid week games though, seems a no brainer. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, arbitro said:

I agree Leonard. His arrogance was in believing that after one season of success the lapsed fans would come flooding back forgetting the previous six seasons of virtual purgatory engineered by the owners. So he stupidly puts the prices up and closes the Darwen End. I get the impression he sold this warped vision to the Indians during the summer visit and he is fearful of being questioned by them when he visits them in November.

John Williams valued the advice from supporters and put quite a lot of this into practice. Whilst Waggott meets with fans groups regularly does he listen to them and value their input?

Arrogance? Odd word to use. He doesn't come across as arrogant to me. Obviously ticket prices would go up from League 1 to the Championship. Did you expect the opposite to happen? 

[JHRover]

Whole thing needs breaking down and simplifying.

BBE lower, Riverside and JW lower should be the same price. A nice round £20 per match if buying a ticket in isolation. Talk about undercutting ST holders that works out at £460 a season if buying match by match so significantly cheaper to buy a ST.

Only area that should cost more on matchday is JW Upper central which is the 'premium' area and should cost an extra £5 to sit in.

If you are intent on having category games then have 2 categories, A and B. A for Leeds, Boro, Sheffield clubs, Wigan, Bolton, Preston, Villa, WBA, Stoke, Derby, Forest, B for Swansea, Bristol, Reading, QPR, Brentford, Millwall, Ipswich, Norwich, Birmingham, Rotherham.

Preferably don't bother with the categories and just have a flat rate. If you want to charge more for away fans e.g. £25+ then you can do so by allocating them the upper DE at 3,000 tickets and charge them as you wish. Of the 23 other clubs in this league only about 6 will ever need more than those 3,000 - Preston, Leeds, Sheff Weds, Middlesbrough, possibly Stoke, WBA and Bolton. 

Abandon the matchday surcharge.

1875 members qualify for a discount of say 10% or even £5 off a matchday ticket. Even if that means £15 every game for 1875 members x 23 that is £345 so similar sort of value to having a season ticket, albeit without the benefit of being 1st in line for away tickets and without the benefit of having a seat secured for the full season.

Introduce a cash only turnstile. Encourage people to buy in advance via the ticket office but don't penalise those who don't want to or can't commit to doing so. £15 for an unreserved area or £20 max for a reserved seat. Cash only blocks in the wings of the Riverside (virtually empty at present).

 

 

 

[tomphil]

15 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Arrogance? Odd word to use. He doesn't come across as arrogant to me. Obviously ticket prices would go up from League 1 to the Championship. Did you expect the opposite to happen? 

They needn't have done because they didn't go down when we went down I don't think.

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Whole thing needs breaking down and simplifying.

BBE lower, Riverside and JW lower should be the same price. A nice round £20 per match if buying a ticket in isolation. Talk about undercutting ST holders that works out at £460 a season if buying match by match so significantly cheaper to buy a ST.

Only area that should cost more on matchday is JW Upper central which is the 'premium' area and should cost an extra £5 to sit in.

If you are intent on having category games then have 2 categories, A and B. A for Leeds, Boro, Sheffield clubs, Wigan, Bolton, Preston, Villa, WBA, Stoke, Derby, Forest, B for Swansea, Bristol, Reading, QPR, Brentford, Millwall, Ipswich, Norwich, Birmingham, Rotherham.

Preferably don't bother with the categories and just have a flat rate. If you want to charge more for away fans e.g. £25+ then you can do so by allocating them the upper DE at 3,000 tickets and charge them as you wish. Of the 23 other clubs in this league only about 6 will ever need more than those 3,000 - Preston, Leeds, Sheff Weds, Middlesbrough, possibly Stoke, WBA and Bolton. 

Abandon the matchday surcharge.

1875 members qualify for a discount of say 10% or even £5 off a matchday ticket. Even if that means £15 every game for 1875 members x 23 that is £345 so similar sort of value to having a season ticket, albeit without the benefit of being 1st in line for away tickets and without the benefit of having a seat secured for the full season.

Introduce a cash only turnstile. Encourage people to buy in advance via the ticket office but don't penalise those who don't want to or can't commit to doing so. £15 for an unreserved area or £20 max for a reserved seat. Cash only blocks in the wings of the Riverside (virtually empty at present).

 

 

 

It does sound overly convoluted as things stand  

[tomphil]

21 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I agree Leonard. His arrogance was in believing that after one season of success the lapsed fans would come flooding back forgetting the previous six seasons of virtual purgatory engineered by the owners. So he stupidly puts the prices up and closes the Darwen End. I get the impression he sold this warped vision to the Indians during the summer visit and he is fearful of being questioned by them when he visits them in November.

John Williams valued the advice from supporters and put quite a lot of this into practice. Whilst Waggott meets with fans groups regularly does he listen to them and value their input?

A bit like the Shagnew era , sign a few players win a few games and they'll come flooding back was the word to India etc

That Oxford game threw them all a bit of a curved ball I think when in reality for the two seasons previous we'd been bobbling along on home turnouts of around 10k. 

To be fair though in saying do we have historically big crowds he's kind of acknowledging that and between the lines maybe saying the 11/12k now have to carry the can at these prices and just hope a few more start coming.

[arbitro]

Two interesting articles on the LT website today. 

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/16977685.what-could-tempt-rovers-fans-back-to-ewood-park/

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/16977901.rovers-season-ticket-holders-on-why-they-continue-to-sign-up/

 

[47er]

1 hour ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

I am starting to wonder whether it might be less about being clueless and more about arrogance, refusal to listen and join up the dots. 

He might have dug himself into a hole in India by overselling  what he could do with attendances....

Lets hope he can develop some listening skills...quickly!

I think you might have have hit the nail on the head with your 2nd sentence.

[Dreams of 1995]

2 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Arrogance? Odd word to use. He doesn't come across as arrogant to me. Obviously ticket prices would go up from League 1 to the Championship. Did you expect the opposite to happen? 

I suppose it's very easy for you to completely dismiss the impact of rising prices when you don't buy season tickets or have the issue of rising match day tickets.

iFollow will continue with the same price and you'll continue to use the service. Although I'm sure you have some gripes with that yourself and it would be as equally frustrating of me to belittle your gripes when I'm not a service user myself. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

4 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I suppose it's very easy for you to completely dismiss the impact of rising prices when you don't buy season tickets or have the issue of rising match day tickets.

iFollow will continue with the same price and you'll continue to use the service. Although I'm sure you have some gripes with that yourself and it would be as equally frustrating of me to belittle your gripes when I'm not a service user myself. 

Nasty little troll aren't you? Maybe have a little walk for yourself, you seem a bit overly angry. 

You don't seem capable of grasping the simple economics of the issue, so I won't waste my time trying. 

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[Dreams of 1995]

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Nasty little troll aren't you? Maybe have a little walk for yourself, you seem a bit overly angry. 

You don't seem capable of grasping the simple economics of the issue, so I won't waste my time trying. 

 

I defended the pricing on the 3rd or 4th page. Just a little irking your belittling of the issue when it's something you don't face yourself. I don't see how what I just said means I'm trolling....

As for the simple economics it should be noted that Huddersfield, Burnley, Brighton etc all offered discounts or free renewal upon promotion! 

[Bigdoggsteel]

14 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I defended the pricing on the 3rd or 4th page. Just a little irking your belittling of the issue when it's something you don't face yourself. I don't see how what I just said means I'm trolling....

As for the simple economics it should be noted that Huddersfield, Burnley, Brighton etc all offered discounts or free renewal upon promotion! 

How am I belittling it? I said the main issue doesn't come down to pricing, you then jump in with some nonsense that doesn't make sense about Ifollow. 

I think tickets should be as reasonably priced as possible, but I don't believe a pound or two more on a match ticket or ten or even twenty on a season ticket is responsible for the low attendances. Far more issues at play. 

If you can afford a match ticket or a season ticket, you are well off enough that a small increase, whilst annoying, will not be something that makes or breaks whether you go 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[roversfan99]

10 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

How am I belittling it? I said the main issue doesn't come down to pricing, you then jump in with some nonsense that doesn't make sense about Ifollow. 

I think tickets should be as reasonably priced as possible, but I don't believe a pound or two more on a match ticket or ten or even twenty on a season ticket is responsible for the low attendances. Far more issues at play. 

You could flip that and say why do they feel the need to increase it by such a low amount if its so insignificant? Same with the surcharge. If they froze prices or even slightly reduced them, they could really promote that, ideally around the Oxford game at peak levels of fan happiness.

Even if it only seems like a small amount, you have to realise that this isnt to people who get a season ticket regardless, who prioritise getting a season ticket and budget accordingly. This is to people that are on the fence. Its much easier to lose season ticket holders than to gain them, and you cant be blaze and arrogant enough like Waggott is to think, the product is much better, they should come back regardless of how much we charge and how we treat the fans. This summer should have been solely focuses on increasing attendances. Assuming the positive feeling remains on the pitch and in terms of fans being united behind the manager and players, once you get people back into the habit by tempting them initially at a point of high interest, you can then look at prices down the line.

For me the most startling aspect of the interview is the lack of responsibility and the naivety/arrogance of Waggott as mentioned above. The players and manager have done their bit but he seems oblivious to the fact that he has a part to play and at the moment hes failing.

The article today gauging fan opinion of those who dont have a season ticket shows that cost is a primary factor preventing attendances from increasing.

[Bigdoggsteel]

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You could flip that and say why do they feel the need to increase it by such a low amount if its so insignificant? Same with the surcharge. If they froze prices or even slightly reduced them, they could really promote that, ideally around the Oxford game at peak levels of fan happiness.

Even if it only seems like a small amount, you have to realise that this isnt to people who get a season ticket regardless, who prioritise getting a season ticket and budget accordingly. This is to people that are on the fence. Its much easier to lose season ticket holders than to gain them, and you cant be blaze and arrogant enough like Waggott is to think, the product is much better, they should come back regardless of how much we charge and how we treat the fans. This summer should have been solely focuses on increasing attendances. Assuming the positive feeling remains on the pitch and in terms of fans being united behind the manager and players, once you get people back into the habit by tempting them initially at a point of high interest, you can then look at prices down the line.

For me the most startling aspect of the interview is the lack of responsibility and the naivety/arrogance of Waggott as mentioned above. The players and manager have done their bit but he seems oblivious to the fact that he has a part to play and at the moment hes failing.

The article today gauging fan opinion of those who dont have a season ticket shows that cost is a primary factor preventing attendances from increasing.

I disagree with the increases, but I just don't think it's the reason people don't go to games. The same thing is happening with football and hurling matches over here , coinciding with Sky getting the rights to show more games. Plus none of the counties have owners, let alone owners like Venkys. 

So ultimately what it comes down to is the availability of games on TV and online and the fact that a lot of fans have made the decision not to come back whilst the Raos own the club. Even though things have gotten better with stuff behind the scenes and most definitely on the field, I would say a few either want to stick to their guns or are too proud to change their stance. Both of which is their prerogative to do. 

 

[tomphil]

John Williams once said that he'd come to realise people in this area value every pound in their pocket and where they spend it more than any other place in the Country !

So when people are quibbling about a pound or two here and there or extra money for rocking up an hour before kick off believe me it matters.  A lot of it is a mental thing and principle thing as well rather than whether they actually afford to tip it up or not. Northeners are nothing if not principled and if they think it's out of order or the piss is being taken they'll say no thanks.

Just the way it is, I don't think i'm wrong in saying our little corner of England is still quite old fashioned in some of it's values, more than anywhere else except maybe parts of Yorkshire.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Was the biggest drop the season after we were relegated from the Premier league? I don't think the tickets have gone up any more than other clubs in that time period, so there are other factors at play 

[JHRover]

We need to stop making comparisons to what we were getting in the Premier League. We aint ever going to get to those sort of numbers in the Championship. Mowbray is deluded if he seriously believes we'll get 20,000+ home fans on in this league on a regular basis. Maybe for one off huge games or celebrations but not for your bread and butter mid=table clashes with Brentford and Millwall.

The comparisons we should be making are to what we were getting in 2000-2001 when at this level and also what we were getting in 2012-14 when we came out of the Premier League and were getting more home fans on than we are currently. Where have those people gone?

We know there is an element of 5000-10000 fans who will only turn up for the Premier League. That applies to every club in the land although proportionally probably higher for Rovers than most. Forget those people, focus on the 2000 or so who were coming in 2012-13 but who might have stopped. Focus on trying to indoctrinate youngsters who won't see the Premier League as the be all and end all in life.

[tomphil]

Spot on it's the lapsed ones who stuck with it despite Kean etc etc, the crowds when there was a bit of positivity briefly under GBs first full season were in the main a bit higher than now. Get those back for a start i'm pretty sure 12k ish season ticket holders is realistic for Rovers if they price and pitch it right and that needn't mean giving them away although an exciting signing would've helped this time around and they have to shoulder that one.

That would give a base for 13/14 thousand home turnouts plus away fans which is more than respectable for us midtable at this level.

[chaddyrovers]

I have read the Waggott's article a couple of times now plus today articles about fans opinions who go and don't go. 

Price is a problem but so is that fact that people who haven't been for a few years and now have other interest, the dates and times of games plus Sky having games that are non 3 pm kick-offs and quite detail highlights. 

It was mention by one fan who mention having a season ticket for weekend games cos he couldn't get to midweek games due to work commitments. Some fans will be working shift work so unable to get to get midweek games. 

I can understand Waggott's point about the price. I think its a combination of number of factors and I feel now we need to start targeting families with Kids under 11 and Primary schools. Get Children involved and at games regular. I remember back when I was in Primary School that we went the Blackburn Rovers indoor football school before the game for a few games and then go game. We did this a couple of times and I really enjoyed it. Maybe its time we did cheap Kids tickets with an adult price. 

Waggott missed a big chance when season ticket should have been on sale before the Oxford game. But they weren't. I would love to see the figures for ticket sales after the 12pm deadline where there is a surchange in place. It was dead busy before the Forest game when I walk past at 2pm. 

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

 

The comparisons we should be making are to what we were getting in 2000-2001 when at this level and also what we were getting in 2012-14 when we came out of the Premier League and were getting more home fans on than we are currently. Where have those people gone?

 

I feel we shouldn't be comparing to the 2000/01 season as it 17 years ago. I would look at the figures when Bowyer was here and his second season. And compare those figures instead

[Paul]

7 hours ago, cesus said:

As a lapsed season ticket holder after having one for 22 years (until last season)I shamefully have to admit I’ve simply got out of the habit of going to games. 

It’s very hard to describe the feeling of still being madly into Rovers frantically checking twitter during all games but not having a massive desire to go to games live. I can only fire out a few things that potentially spring to mind.

- I can catch highlights of the game within 20-40 minutes on the sky sports app.

- Red button and sky covered matches give me the chance to catch quite a few games a season.

- Seeing Jason Lowe run straight out of play with the ball on the relegation day and thinking that guy is a multimillionaire ... the game has gone mad. That really effected me believe it or not

- friends and family have got out of the habit of going to games we had 9 season tickets by the first season in the Championship, we now have none.

- I don’t believe in thinking watching lower level football is the answer as that is “proper” football, I’m Rovers only. I don’t watch match of the day or other matches on sky.

- The fact that football is decided now by strikes of owners pens, for all the fantastic work Mowbray and the players have done a move called from India (Coyle appointment) can send the whole club tumbling.

 

So reading back through that now I’ve put it down in writing, Sky makes it too easy for me to follow my club without giving up my spare time and I suppose money but the money isn’t an issue per se. I resent how Owners now run football and footballers are paid too much. Most of the people I attended with fall into one, some of all the categories above and it saddens me but hey, at least I’ve been honest.

Dozens of good ideas and opinions on here but read the above post and especially:

"Sky makes it too easy to follow my club without giving up my spare time and I suppose money"

I would, but I'm not going to, take issue with the spare time sentiment. The point is this "Sky makes it too easy" I've been banging this drum for 20 years - Sky has killed the game. English football hardly exists. Rovers can put every incentive you can imagine in front of fans and it won't make a jot of difference.

The only way this will change is when Sky leaves. If you want to influence this then do not watch Sky - anywhere.

cesus had an ST for 22 years and no longer has to give up anything to follow Rovers. Hammer Waggott and the club all you want but you can't beat this.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Paul

[gumboots]

Oddly enough, one thing I never do is watch Rovers on Sky. I would far rather go to a live match. We have all the sky matches available but I can't stand Rovers on tv. Don't know why

[blueboy3333]

There seems to be an acceptance from some that gates will never improve no matter what the club do. I think that is nonsense. The same things were said before Williams slashed the prices way back when. 

What the club has to do is make Ewood Park on a match day an attractive proposition. They won't do that through surcharges, closing stands to home fans and moving families round. They'll only do it by making it affordable to EVERYONE and making EVERYONE feel valued. There isn't enough goodwill knocking about after the last 8 years to make pissing people off acceptable to anyone. 

The club needs to start by attracting young adults, the ones who actually sing and make the ground a vibrant and enjoyable place to be. This takes us back to the Oxford game. It was full of young people and they were Rovers fans. Fact. They won't all come back but the really sad thing is NONE of them have come back. That failure can be laid firmly at the feet of the club.

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by blueboy3333

[Mark45]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

There seems to be an acceptance from some that gates will never improve no matter what the club do. I think that is nonsense. The same things were said before Williams slashed the prices way back when. 

What the club has to do is make Ewood Park on a match day an attractive proposition. They won't do that through surcharges, closing stands to home fans and moving families round. They'll only do it by making it affordable to EVERYONE and making EVERYONE feel valued. There isn't enough goodwill knocking about after the last 8 years to make pissing people acceptable to anyone. 

The club needs to start by attracting young adults, the ones who actually sing and make the ground a vibrant and enjoyable place to be. This takes us back to the Oxford game. It was full of young people and they were Rovers fans. Fact. They won't all come back but the really sad thing is NONE of them have come back. That failure can be laid firmly at the feet of the club.

 

8yrs to make Pissing people acceptable? where you pissing? Very sounding like German hot film?

If Blackburn Rovers FC make Premier Leagues all fans return, but without that influences, the club will always get ok attendances as now. 

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Mark45 said:

8yrs to make Pissing people acceptable? where you pissing? Very sounding like German hot film?

If Blackburn Rovers FC make Premier Leagues all fans return, but without that influences, the club will always get ok attendances as now. 

Sensational German wit.