Attendances

[tomphil]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Need to get us involved, we’ll give Waggott a team by team breakdown in advance.

Many years collective experience !

Anyway he just needs to read on here in advance to get to know the true picture of how to go about things....... like Tony does ?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Clearly going to be difficult getting the fans back into Ewood..the damage done by our owners runs deep I fear.

[Mattyblue]

We’ve now got 10,000 season ticket holders. Which isn’t far off 2,000 up from our last season in this league and last season. As a result the home crowd is around 12,000 fans each week instead of 10,000.

It’s a start, but it shows that the only consistent way to raise crowds is increasing the season ticket holder base (promotion aside). 

Up to Waggott to try and get the offer right this summer. Another £50 on the cost won’t do it...

[Paul]

12 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

We’ve now got 10,000 season ticket holders. Which isn’t far off 2,000 up from our last season in this league and last season. As a result the home crowd is around 12,000 fans each week instead of 10,000.

It’s a start, but it shows that the only consistent way to raise crowds is increasing the season ticket holder base (promotion aside). 

Up to Waggott to try and get the offer right this summer. Another £50 on the cost won’t do it...

Surely you're contradicting yourself? Despite the price rise you state ST sales are up by 2000, I didn't realise it was this high, yet you argue another £50 won't do it next summer. Most businesses would view sales growth of 25% on increased prices as good news.

Two things have always been clear at Ewood, we are very reliant on ST sales and success on the pitch drives sales.

You say ST sales increased by 25% despite the much criticised price increases. Maintaining 25% growth for the next two seasons would give an ST base of 15600 - doubled in three years. That would be hard to argue with.

The key to increasing ST sales is success on the pitch, which we have, coupled with reasonable prices, which with an ST working out at around £15 per game it's arguable we also have.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Paul

[Mattyblue]

Just a hunch on my part.

The club increased sales on the back of a feel good factor, may have been more if they’d have been held price wise. But who knows. We are only back at the level we were pre the Coyle appointment, so nothing to shout about.

But if prices head get towards £400 in the Blackburn End and £500+ in the Jack Walker upper I think we’ll have problems retaining what we have now, nevermind further increases. 

Rovers fans are very price sensitive. Don’t forget, the reason ‘Taking Back Ewood’ was launched in 2008 was to try and reverse the big drop in crowds between 2003 and 2008 - a drop largely due to ever increasing prices and that was for an established Premier League outfit full of quality players and everything else that comes with being in the top flight.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Stuart]

15 minutes ago, Paul said:

The key to increasing ST sales is success on the pitch, which we have, coupled with reasonable prices, which with an ST working out at around £15 per game it's arguable we also have.

The key to increasing ST sales is price. The current price point is using fans as a cash cow and doesn’t encourage growth.

10,000 fans on a match day is nothing to shout about.

[tomphil]

Finish the season strongly and maybe a loan or two with view to buying In the summer is a large factor as well that's why some of us were getting tetchy with the old 'as you were' attitude that seemed to be creeping in, a foot off the gas it's ok we'll stay up midtable plod when a little push and effort could see a top 8 finish and interesting end to the season.

Most would be happy with the midtable finish don't get me wrong but we are trying to rebuild the club on and off the park so every bit counts. Strong end of season and prospect of one or two good ones signing permanent or some good players coming in wets the appetite and surely would help ST sales as long as they don't do anything daft with price rises.

If they did all then then slashed the prices we'd be cooking with gas but that's probably too much to ask in the current climate but something incentive based would help.

Edited January 28, 2019 by tomphil

[gumboots]

If it were as simple as cut prices or even just hold them steady at below inflation rises everyone would be doing it. It's more about value for money so it's a blend of right price structure and standard and style of play. When you get it right people come. It's not just the play or the players or why would lower division clubs sell any other than the handful who go out of blind loyalty and habit. It's more about the whole match day package nowadays with other entertainments vying with football for our cash so things like ease of parking, the standard of catering, the availability of a decent place to get a drink or 2 before the match, speed of getting away from the ground afterwards and all sort of other factors come into play. 

[Paul]

9 hours ago, Stuart said:

The key to increasing ST sales is price. The current price point is using fans as a cash cow and doesn’t encourage growth.

10,000 fans on a match day is nothing to shout about.

I can't agree Stuart because there are many examples of ticket promotions failing to significantly improve our crowd in recent seasons.

Make tickets and STs as cheap as chips or even free you still won't attract fans if the team is poor. Only the absolute diehards will eat h a bad team. Clearly there is a balance to be struck but the cash cow view is one held only by a small and quite vociferous group of disenchanted supporters who are largely unrepresentative of the fan base.

As @gumboots rightly says it's all about the package. For me the package is the team, manager, quality of view others will want to add, parking, refreshments and getting away after the game to this. For where we are now the price at somewhere around £15/match is good value.

@Mattyblue yes £400 in the BBE would probably be pushing it though that is still only £17/game. If we charged £400 in the PL £21 per match would still be good.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Paul

[gumboots]

28 minutes ago, Paul said:

I can't agree Stuart because there are many examples of ticket promotions failing to significantly improve our crowd in recent seasons.

Make tickets and STs as cheap as chips or even free you still won't attract fans if the team is poor. Only the absolute diehards will eat h a bad team. Clearly there is a balance to be struck but the cash cow view is one held only by a small and quite vociferous group of disenchanted supporters who are largely unrepresentative of the fan base.

As @gumboots rightly says it's all about the package. For me the package is the team, manager, quality of view others will want to add, parking, refreshments and getting away after the game to this. For where we are now the price at somewhere around £15/match is good value.

@Mattyblue yes £400 in the BBE would probably be pushing it though that is still only £17/game. If we charged £400 in the PL £21 per match would still be good.

They'll eat a team will they? Now that's true dedication lol

[Mattyblue]

I personally don’t think £400 is outrageous, it’s what PNE generally charge, as an example. But I’m a fanatic who spends far too much time obsessing about all things Blackburn Rovers.

For others, I do think psychologically when prices start hitting £400 in the BBEnd and head towards £550 in the JW upper, a good number won’t renew.

2003 to 2008 backs up that view.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Stuart]

16 minutes ago, Paul said:

I can't agree Stuart because there are many examples of ticket promotions failing to significantly improve our crowd in recent seasons.

Make tickets and STs as cheap as chips or even free you still won't attract fans if the team is poor. Only the absolute diehards will eat h a bad team. Clearly there is a balance to be struck but the cash cow view is one held only by a small and quite vociferous group of disenchanted supporters who are largely unrepresentative of the fan base.

As @gumboots rightly says it's all about the package. For me the package is the team, manager, quality of view others will want to add, parking, refreshments and getting away after the game to this. For where we are now the price at somewhere around £15/match is good value.

@Mattyblue yes £400 in the BBE would probably be pushing it though that is still only £17/game. If we charged £400 in the PL £21 per match would still be good.

Our recent record of reduced season ticket pricing - which is the discussion - shows that we do increase gates so I’m not sure why you are talking about specific ticket promotions. Although, we haven’t really tested those enough under Waggott to say one way or the other - except the Oxford game, which people believe we should ignore. However, if we had charged £25 per ticket I sincerely doubt we would have had the gate that we did.

But ignoring that, your third para is the important one in my view. It is the total package and the perception of value for money that is important. We are all different and have different income levels but £15 per game is probably the limit when it comes to happily committing up front for 23 games.

But consider that if we offered a £179/£199 season ticket with some marketing and we would be looking at gates north of 18k per week. In my opinion. 25k when Leeds rock up. Sadly, the club would rather charge double and have half the fans. That’s how it stands today, as I see it.

[gumboots]

For me, with the number of games I miss, next year will be the first time in a long time I'll find a ST good value as I'll be a senior! Lol

[Paul]

No way will we see 18k every week at Ewood till we are back in the PL. If we hit 15k I'd be very pleased and 25k is just wishful thinking in the Championship.

We've lost 10,000 supporters, most were not diehard fans. Yes they still support the club, take an interest etc. but return? I can't see it unless we hit the PL and even then it will be tough. 

I don't think people realise the extent to which things have changed. A stream of cars used to leave my village (5 miles to Ewood) at one time, probably 30-35 people, the traffic would be backed up to between the Hoghton Arms and Moulden Brow, leaving at 2.00pm was essential. Sometimes it was quicker to take the Belmont road and go through Tockholes.

Today I can leave at 2.40 and be in my seat for KO. Admittedly 2.35 is easier! That's how it was in the 80s.

I'm afraid life has moved on, people do other things, too much football on TV etc. The club shouldn't stop trying but it's clear why the pricing policy is what it is. I really think we would struggle to get good home gates in the PL.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Paul

[Paul]

To put it in a nutshell, when I meet people socially who I don't see often I get two perhaps three questions:

"Rovers doing OK?"

"Do you still go?"

"Good result (last week, yesterday or whenever we played)" as appropriate.

Always from people who used to go.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Paul

[Mattyblue]

12 minutes ago, Paul said:

No way will we see 18k every week at Ewood till we are back in the PL. If we hit 15k I'd be very pleased and 25k is just wishful thinking in the Championship.

We've lost 10,000 supporters, most were not diehard fans. Yes they still support the club, take an interest etc. but return? I can't see it unless we hit the PL and even then it will be tough. 

I don't think people realise the extent to which things have changed. A stream of cars used to leave my village (5 miles to Ewood) at one time, probably 30-35 people, the traffic would be backed up to between the Hoghton Arms and Moulden Brow, leaving at 2.00pm was essential. Sometimes it was quicker to take the Belmont road and go through Tockholes.

Today I can leave at 2.40 and be in my seat for KO. Admittedly 2.35 is easier! That's how it was in the 80s.

I'm afraid life has moved on, people do other things, too much football on TV etc. The club shouldn't stop trying but it's clear why the pricing policy is what it is. I really think we would struggle to get good home gates in the PL.

Totally agree, we've lost a shedload of fans and it is going to be fiendishly hard to get them back.

However, disagree with the bold, the majority of clubs in the top 5 divisions are getting better gates than they did 20 years ago, many substantially so. A look down the average attendances in this league in when we last won promotion shows just how much crowds have shot up across the board. 

We are one of the few clubs that have gone the other way, and we know who to thank.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Paul]

33 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Totally agree, we've lost a shedload of fans and it is going to be fiendishly hard to get them back.

However, disagree with the bold, the majority of clubs in the top 5 divisions are getting better gates than they did 20 years ago, many substantially so. A look down the average attendances in this league in when we last won promotion shows just how much crowds have shot up across the board. 

We are one of the few clubs that have gone the other way, and we know who to thank.

I know you study this far closer than I Matty so I'm sure you're correct about better gates at most clubs. There's no doubt Venkys take the blame for our decline.

The problem is when I look around me at all the people who used to go I know none are going back. Myself included there were five in the car. Today it's three diehards, me and two sons. My third son isn't interested. We also took a neighbour's lad, he's left the area. Three or so years ago I took him on Boxing Day, we were awful, asked him along for the next game "What? To watch that?" was the response.

The parents who took the kids are now, like me, retired. They've stopped, the kids leaving for uni etc. was a catalyst. At least 50% of the children have left Lancashire. Those now in their 30s still in the area don't take their kids - that's a generation gone. Guy I worked with had two STs but then got some for Utd - he just wanted PL football. I probably knew 40 ST holders, today less than 10.

Today I only need 15 minutes at most to get to Ewood but it can take an hour to get home. This is because the car parks are locked till the away coaches have left. The traffic is then solid as far as Moulden Brow - all driving out of Blackburn.

Time was when we drove down LBR there were hundreds, perhaps 1000+ walking to the ground. Today it's not even noticeable.

The damage Venkys did may take a generation to repair and that's if we have a quality PL team. Without we are where we are. Hopefully they'll get another 25 years out of me!!!!

Edited January 28, 2019 by Paul

[JHRover]

Yes, the demographics of those going to football games has shifted more and more in the last 10-15 years. These days it seems to be more of a family event than it ever was previously.

As a Championship club we need to be realistic. About 15,000 home fans a week is the most we're ever going to get in the remotely near future unless miracles are worked. Figures suggest we're currently between 12,000 and 13,000 so the aim should be to get another couple of thousand home fans in, by doing what every other club seems to do - shuttle buses to areas where Rovers fans live - Hyndburn, Clitheroe, Leyland, Chorley, Bamber Bridge. Encourage/set up supporter branches in each of those areas. Promote the club beyond the confines of BwDBC - if that means upsetting counterparts at Accy or PNE then hey, it's a dog eat dog world. 

Unless and until we do the basics to promote attendance and the club in the REGION and not the TOWN then we can't say we've done everything we can.

[Hasta]

My mate, a former season ticket holder, has now been to 4 games this season :-

Hull when he got offered a adult free ticket and then bought one for his child.

Birmingham when it was -7 and he got offered a free adult ticket and then bought one for his child.

Rotherham when he got offered a free ticket and then bought one for his child.

Newcastle at £10 when he came with me.

 

Make of that what you will. He can't be unique amongst the ex-season ticket holders.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Hasta

[perthblue02]

Rovers /Waggot/attendance related - "Don't let tech kill football as a spectator sport "

https://www.businesscloud.co.uk/news/dont-let-tech-kill-football-as-a-spectator-sport--ceo

[Stuart]

23 minutes ago, perthblue02 said:

Rovers /Waggot/attendance related - "Don't let tech kill football as a spectator sport "

https://www.businesscloud.co.uk/news/dont-let-tech-kill-football-as-a-spectator-sport--ceo

“Let pricing and surcharges do it instead.”

[AAK]

22 hours ago, Hasta said:

My mate, a former season ticket holder, has now been to 4 games this season :-

Hull when he got offered a adult free ticket and then bought one for his child.

Birmingham when it was -7 and he got offered a free adult ticket and then bought one for his child.

Rotherham when he got offered a free ticket and then bought one for his child.

Newcastle at £10 when he came with me.

 

Make of that what you will. He can't be unique amongst the ex-season ticket holders.

Similar to me and a few of my mates. Been quite a few away games over last few years, although nowhere near as many as we used to. Back in the pre-venky era we'd get a season ticket without question and therefore not attending wasn't ever in our thoughts, however most of us got tired of it all and stopped going. After a few years of not going much, apart from freebies and cheap ticket games, the £25-£30 tickets suddenly seem just an outrageous amount of money to spend on a mid-table championship/league 1 game. Back when some of us didn't have season tickets at times, we would still get to as many as we can and didn't think anything of the £20-25 at the time prices, but now we know what else that money can go on, we think twice about it, I mean £25 mean price, plus £5er on food, £20 on beers, £5er on the bus you're at £55 as a minimum. This is why they need to do so much more with their season tickets, people don't think much about a £25 a month or whatever it is direct debit, doesn't feel as much a pinch on the pockets.

Been through it before but Forest and Huddersfield great examples of which I have mentioned before, their attendances (both in the championship) almost doubled with very low season ticket offers and same with Bradford in league 1.

Last 3 games of season offer cheap tickets, all 3 games for £30, and make it known that 30 people will be picked at random in each game for a free season ticket. The bigger crowds will pay for the free tickets, and it will give people a prolonged run at home games and get them really thinking about coming back, rather than one off games where they've forgot about it the following week. Also anyone who takes up the £30 for 3 games offer also gets £30 off a season ticket if bought before 31/05/2019.

Make all kids of primary school age completely free.

18-21 don't just offer them discounted tickets, offer them student cards of which they can get discounts on everything (food, drinks, merchandise) - a lot of students struggle, so give them as much incentive as possible.

Offer a 'mates rates' season tickets, along the lines of, buy together with your mates and get 25% off the second ticket.

Offer the first 10,000 season tickets for a £100 reduction. It's a lot yes, but they need to take some risks and give some massive incentives to people, a reduction like that get's people talking, gets people rushing down to get them, the more that sell, the more stories in the local rag about how well season ticket sales are going, the more feel good factor, the more people sign up to it. Huddersfield were charging £295 for season tickets in 15/16, in 16/17 the dropped them to £179 and they sold 8,000 more than they usually did at the time.

With season tickets offer free travel from various parts of blackburn and darwen and other local towns.

Any season ticket offers, offer guarantees that the prices will be frozen for the following season.

Offer tickets not just on direct debits, but offers like pay 25% now and the rest after christmas.

Offer all season ticket holders the chance of free away travel for 1 or 2 games during the season, at they get to pick which game they want free travel.

Edited January 29, 2019 by AAK

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

On 28/01/2019 at 17:25, Stuart said:

Our recent record of reduced season ticket pricing - which is the discussion - shows that we do increase gates so I’m not sure why you are talking about specific ticket promotions. Although, we haven’t really tested those enough under Waggott to say one way or the other - except the Oxford game, which people believe we should ignore. However, if we had charged £25 per ticket I sincerely doubt we would have had the gate that we did.

But ignoring that, your third para is the important one in my view. It is the total package and the perception of value for money that is important. We are all different and have different income levels but £15 per game is probably the limit when it comes to happily committing up front for 23 games.

But consider that if we offered a £179/£199 season ticket with some marketing and we would be looking at gates north of 18k per week. In my opinion. 25k when Leeds rock up. Sadly, the club would rather charge double and have half the fans. That’s how it stands today, as I see it.

A £199 season ticket is less than £10 a game. How are we meant to compete financially against other teams with that?  You understand that we do need to act as a business sometimes as well? If you want a decent product on the pitch then at some stage we need to pay for it. It’s probably £10 a game in the national league if you’d rather we play there..?

[Stuart]

Just now, magicalmortensleftpeg said:

A £199 season ticket is less than £10 a game. How are we meant to compete financially against other teams with that?  You understand that we do need to act as a business sometimes as well? If you want a decent product on the pitch then at some stage we need to pay for it. It’s probably £10 a game in the national league if you’d rather we play there..?

This is the dichotomy though.

Anyone who thinks Blackburn Rovers under Venkys is reliant on gate receipts to keep the club solvent, let alone competitive, is sadly mistaken.

We are wholey and absolutely beholden to Venkys propping the club up or selling to someone else who will, or even somebody who would need to maximise income from ticket sales.

We need PL football to change our circumstances and sooner rather than later. Having 18,000 fans getting behind the team would support that aim far more than an extra fiver per game from 10,000 of them.

As long as Venkys are here, they need to be subsiding the club to get as many fans in as possible.

If the Rovers Trust were in charge rather than Venkys, I’d be more inclined to agree with you.

[blueboy3333]

1 hour ago, magicalmortensleftpeg said:

A £199 season ticket is less than £10 a game. How are we meant to compete financially against other teams with that?  You understand that we do need to act as a business sometimes as well? If you want a decent product on the pitch then at some stage we need to pay for it. It’s probably £10 a game in the national league if you’d rather we play there..?

10k ST holders at an average of £350 is £3.5m

15k ST holders at an average of £200 is £3m

Add in the extra revenue from food/drinks/merch those extra 5k fans bring and the difference would be negligible.