Glenn Hoddle

[tomphil]

3 hours ago, Batman. said:

It's a pretty basic belief in the oriental cultures (I won't call then religions as they don't worship any God) who believe in Karma. These are of course the principals and spiritual guidelines followed by the most peaceful, loving and compassionate nations and cultures in the world.

His comments were taken completely out of context by the monotonous minded press, and of course the even denser public who were left to interpret his already manipulated comments. He has nothing to apologise for, if you read his full comments and have even a miniscule knowledge of eastern philosophical culture, you would realise his comments were absolutely not, nor meant to be, in the least bit offensive. Unfortunately 99.9 percent of people choose to go with the paraphrased uncontextualised quote in a publication they spend half of their time criticising for peddling lies. 

Get well soon Glenn, and fingers crossed he never comes across some of the drivel posted on Twitter in response to his heart attack. In 2018 people really do have less brain cells than characters in their tweets.

 

Some fair points which I agree with although I think the bit about having miniscule knowledge of eastern philosophical culture is a bit bizarre I mean come on how many members of British joe public do or would you really expect to do ?

Most people are concerned with the toil of their own daily lives not with what other rather unfamiliar cultures believe or don't believe about karma or life after death etc so to offer that as some form of defence for his daft comments is a bit weak. Totally agree on the press aspect though we know how they work particularly in regards to England managers who are very easy targets and obviously help sell papers.

[Mike E]

3 hours ago, Batman. said:

It's a pretty basic belief in the oriental cultures (I won't call then religions as they don't worship any God) who believe in Karma. These are of course the principals and spiritual guidelines followed by the most peaceful, loving and compassionate nations and cultures in the world.

His comments were taken completely out of context by the monotonous minded press, and of course the even denser public who were left to interpret his already manipulated comments. He has nothing to apologise for, if you read his full comments and have even a miniscule knowledge of eastern philosophical culture, you would realise his comments were absolutely not, nor meant to be, in the least bit offensive. Unfortunately 99.9 percent of people choose to go with the paraphrased uncontextualised quote in a publication they spend half of their time criticising for peddling lies. 

Get well soon Glenn, and fingers crossed he never comes across some of the drivel posted on Twitter in response to his heart attack. In 2018 people really do have less brain cells than characters in their tweets.

Of course, I should've been expected to put his comments into those contexts as a 7 year old. Silly me.

Jesus wept.

I actually even agree with most of that post from an objective POV, but knowing how I felt in that moment (bearing in mind how difficult it already is to grow up deaf in Britain. Thankfully, NDCS and Action on Hearing Loss are putting a lot of things right) means I won't forgive those comments.

The 'compassionate oriental cultures' bit just shows you don't particularly know much about how the disabled are treated in that part of the world. Having experienced pushing and shoving just for having hearing aids in, and seeing the physically disabled left to beg in the street and be spat on and beaten, they make this Conservative government look like a 5* residential home. They're definitely compassionate to anyone who deserves it for being well behaved in a past life though.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Mike E

[AllRoverAsia]

16 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Some fair points which I agree with although I think the bit about having miniscule knowledge of eastern philosophical culture is a bit bizarre I mean come on how many members of British joe public do or would you really expect to do ?

Most people are concerned with the toil of their own daily lives not with what other rather unfamiliar cultures believe or don't believe about karma or life after death etc so to offer that as some form of defence for his daft comments is a bit weak. Totally agree on the press aspect though we know how they work particularly in regards to England managers who are very easy targets and obviously help sell papers.

Think Religion that is an integral part, and used as such, of 'culture/society'.

Think RC without Confession but where you can buy merit points to avoid Hoddle's curse.

Think Karl Marx.

I better limit my views to that.

[Batman.]

8 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Of course, I should've been expected to put his comments into those contexts as a 7 year old. Silly me.

Jesus wept.

I actually even agree with most of that post from an objective POV, but knowing how I felt in that moment (bearing in mind how difficult it already is to grow up deaf in Britain. Thankfully, NDCS and Action on Hearing Loss are putting a lot of things right) means I won't forgive those comments.

The 'compassionate oriental cultures' bit just shows you don't particularly know much about how the disabled are treated in that part of the world. Having experienced pushing and shoving just for having hearing aids in, and seeing the physically disabled left to beg in the street and be spat on and beaten, they make this Conservative government look like a 5* residential home. They're definitely compassionate to anyone who deserves it for being well behaved in a past life though.

Where exactly are you speaking about? 

The fact that you interpret my post as me saying that a "7 year old me should have known that" only goes to demonstrate what people are up against. Of course 7 year old you wouldn't have had the mental capacity to see through such media manipulation. Twenty something year old you should have such metal capacities though to evaluate his comments with hindsight and context.

Not being able able to forgive someone for something you misinterpreted as a 7 year old seems like a bad trait to carry.

[Batman.]

31 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Some fair points which I agree with although I think the bit about having miniscule knowledge of eastern philosophical culture is a bit bizarre I mean come on how many members of British joe public do or would you really expect to do So?

I agree, but then people are simply condemning a man based on their own ignorance.

Otherwise, they could retreat to a position "it sounds strange to me, but I don't know what he's talking about so I'll either research it, or form no opinion."

We don't do that though do we? We form incredibly strong opinions on people and their actions based on very little knowledge. Up to now, it hasn't got us very far.

[Dreams of 1995]

4 minutes ago, Batman. said:

I agree, but then people are simply condemning a man based on their own ignorance.

Otherwise, they could retreat to a position "it sounds strange to me, but I don't know what he's talking about so I'll either research it, or form no opinion."

We don't do that though do we? We form incredibly strong opinions on people and their actions based on very little knowledge. Up to now, it hasn't got us very far.

I'd say I have sufficient knowledge on the world to know that a belief in which a disabled man must have done something sinful in a prior life is disrespectful regardless of whatever culture or religion it is born from.

They might accept that viewpoint in parts of South East Asia but ultimately he was the manager of the English national team and it was he, not us, that should have researched and understood the English culture and concluded that such beliefs aren't in line with ours and respectfully kept his own views to himself.

[Mike E]

22 minutes ago, Batman. said:

Where exactly are you speaking about? 

The fact that you interpret my post as me saying that a "7 year old me should have known that" only goes to demonstrate what people are up against. Of course 7 year old you wouldn't have had the mental capacity to see through such media manipulation. Twenty something year old you should have such metal capacities though to evaluate his comments with hindsight and context.

Not being able able to forgive someone for something you misinterpreted as a 7 year old seems like a bad trait to carry.

Again, objectively, you're probably right. But growing up deaf in Britain was pretty crap for me and with all my various negative experiences as a child that stemmed from being deaf, it's hard to forgive the people who played a part in it.

The usual bullying, I knew how to deal with, but being rejected for not fitting in (by hearing kids) and not being deaf enough (deaf kids, this is STILL a thing with some deaf adults - you're not deaf unless you sign) took its toll. For a few years, I had an identity crisis of sorts, I suppose.

But when someone you admire, and who has some authority in your young mind (the England team manager ffs) says that on TV, it hurts. The attitude that being deaf was my fault (leaving Glenn's comments alone for a moment) still goes on today. Quite often, my first interaction with a customer to whom my back happens to be turned is (ironically enough) 'Oi, don't just ignore me!'

That belief (let alone saying it) of karma or paying for past sins only works in this life, in the same way hell is a threat and heaven is a reward. If you believe in past lives, then karma doesn't come from a culture of compassion, it comes from a culture of ignorance and/or blame at best, and being downright tosser at worst.

Whichever one Glenn was (ignorant or a tosser) he had a small but contributing effect on my life with an 'invisible disability'. Rightly or wrongly (I'd even PREFER not to feel how I feel about it), I will hold that against him whether others choose to or not, and I'll do so until I feel comfortable enough to let go.

As people still often treat the disabled like lepers or benefit scroungers (I've never claimed, believing there are other 'more disabled' people than me who need it more), I will fight against those views for as long as I'm able until society is ACTUALLY compassionate.

Wow that was a bit of a loaded post, apologies for ranting.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Mike E

[Batman.]

5 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Again, objectively, you're probably right. But growing up deaf in Britain was pretty crap for me and with all my various negative experiences as a child that stemmed from being deaf, it's hard to forgive the people who played a part in it.

The usual bullying, I knew how to deal with, but being rejected for not fitting in (by hearing kids) and not being deaf enough (deaf kids, this is STILL a thing with some deaf adults - you're not deaf unless you sign) took its toll. For a few years, I had an identity crisis of sorts, I suppose.

But when someone you admire, and who has some authority in your young mind (the England team manager ffs) says that on TV, it hurts. The attitude that being deaf was my fault (leaving Glenn's comments alone for a moment) still goes on today. Quite often, my first interaction with a customer to whom my back happens to be turned is (ironically enough) 'Oi, don't just ignore me!'

That belief (let alone saying it) of karma or paying for past sins only works in this life, in the same way hell is a threat and heaven is a reward. If you believe in past lives, then karma doesn't come from a culture of compassion, it comes from a culture of ignorance and/or blame at best, and being downright tosser at worst.

Whichever one Glenn was (ignorant or a tosser) he had a small but contributing effect on my life with an 'invisible disability'. Rightly or wrongly (I'd even PREFER not to feel how I feel about it), I will hold that against him whether others choose to or not, and I'll do so until I feel comfortable enough to let go.

As people still often treat the disabled like lepers or benefit scroungers (I've never claimed, believing there are other 'more disabled' people than me who need it more), I will fight against those views for as long as I'm able until society is ACTUALLY compassionate.

Wow that was a bit of a loaded post, apologies for ranting.

A long post with little or no reference to nor knowledge about my actual point.

 

9 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I'd say I have sufficient knowledge on the world to know that a belief in which a disabled man must have done something sinful in a prior life is disrespectful regardless of whatever culture or religion it is born from.

They might accept that viewpoint in parts of South East Asia but ultimately he was the manager of the English national team and it was he, not us, that should have researched and understood the English culture and concluded that such beliefs aren't in line with ours and respectfully kept his own views to himself.

Can you explain why it's disrespectful? What exactly is it people find offensive about being potentially punished for actions from a past life? Either you believe it, or you don't. 

The "English Culture" supposedly endorses freedom of speech. Unless of course the great British public don't like your opinion. 

[K-Hod]

'Can you explain why it's disrespectful'? Good grief. You're calling everyone else ignorant, when a man displayed an incredible amount of ignorance himself, when he must have know what he said would have caused incredible offence to so many. Presumably he would have known this, so why on earth didn't he just keep it to himself?

How exactly is a disabled person supposed to feel if someone suggests they're the way they are because of some nonsense about 'sins in a past life'? I'll give you a clue, my Aunties that are blind didn't feel too good about it.

I guarantee you're not going to make someone feel great in doing that. 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by K-Hod

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, Batman. said:

Can you explain why it's disrespectful? What exactly is it people find offensive about being potentially punished for actions from a past life? Either you believe it, or you don't. 

The "English Culture" supposedly endorses freedom of speech. Unless of course the great British public don't like your opinion. 

I think the implication that somebody is disabled through a fault of their own, yet one they can't control, by implying they've been sinful previously is utterly abhorrent. It completely trivialises the struggling somebody is going through; it almost washes societies hands to provide reasonable allowances (care, benefits and compassion) by laying the blame at that person. It opens the door for poor treatment of that person, as seen in the South East Asian cultures which endorse such a belief.

The mere thought of blaming a disabled person for his own disability knocks me a little sick. Imagine being told that your child is born with a disability because he was a bad person previously - imagine being told that YOU were born disabled because you were a bad person in a previous life. 

The notion basically paves the way for the almost sub-human treatment of the disabled because it puts the idea that that person is to be "punished". That ideology has no place in British culture - which is just as much about compassion for all people as it is freedom of speech - and as such you should not be openly endorsing such a belief when in a position of responsibility as Hoddle was.

[Mike E]

Just now, Batman. said:

A long post with little or no reference to nor knowledge about my actual point.

 

Can you explain why it's disrespectful? What exactly is it people find offensive about being potentially punished for actions from a past life? Either you believe it, or you don't. 

The "English Culture" supposedly endorses freedom of speech. Unless of course the great British public don't like your opinion. 

If you can't see how it's disrespectful to so publicly blame millions of people for having their disability based on whimsy, that seems like a pretty bad trait to carry.

With regards your 'actual point', the post I quoted by you stated that I should be able to see through media manipulation of his views, while ignoring entirely the effect that the views themselves had on me (and many other disabled children).

In your haste to excuse Hoddle, I fear you're showing yourself to be as ignorant as him. Or the other option I mentioned. Pity.

[Leonard Venkhater]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I'd say I have sufficient knowledge on the world to know that a belief in which a disabled man must have done something sinful in a prior life is disrespectful regardless of whatever culture or religion it is born from.

They might accept that viewpoint in parts of South East Asia but ultimately he was the manager of the English national team and it was he, not us, that should have researched and understood the English culture and concluded that such beliefs aren't in line with ours and respectfully kept his own views to himself.

He shouldn't have said it..end of. Hugely disrespectful is the best that can be said of it.

When I heard it, I just thought he was a prick!

But I am sure that others capitalised on Hoddle's "pronouncement" for their own ends/to gain popularity/ publicity etc. I can't remember if he was sucked into the comment by some sort of set up.....but there can be no justification for him saying it(imo)

[Leonard Venkhater]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I think the implication that somebody is disabled through a fault of their own, yet one they can't control, by implying they've been sinful previously is utterly abhorrent. It completely trivialises the struggling somebody is going through; it almost washes societies hands to provide reasonable allowances (care, benefits and compassion) by laying the blame at that person. It opens the door for poor treatment of that person, as seen in the South East Asian cultures which endorse such a belief.

The mere thought of blaming a disabled person for his own disability knocks me a little sick. Imagine being told that your child is born with a disability because he was a bad person previously - imagine being told that YOU were born disabled because you were a bad person in a previous life. 

The notion basically paves the way for the almost sub-human treatment of the disabled because it puts the idea that that person is to be "punished". That ideology has no place in British culture - which is just as much about compassion for all people as it is freedom of speech - and as such you should not be openly endorsing such a belief when in a position of responsibility as Hoddle was.

Some things you really shouldn't have to explain lol..

Anyway, have you ever wondered what we, the good people of Blackburn, must have been in previous lives to deserve Venky's? 

War criminals, child molesters?

Edited October 29, 2018 by Leonard Venkhater

[Batman.]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I think the implication that somebody is disabled through a fault of their own, yet one they can't control, by implying they've been sinful previously is utterly abhorrent. It completely trivialises the struggling somebody is going through; it almost washes societies hands to provide reasonable allowances (care, benefits and compassion) by laying the blame at that person. It opens the door for poor treatment of that person, as seen in the South East Asian cultures which endorse such a belief.

The mere thought of blaming a disabled person for his own disability knocks me a little sick. Imagine being told that your child is born with a disability because he was a bad person previously - imagine being told that YOU were born disabled because you were a bad person in a previous life. 

The notion basically paves the way for the almost sub-human treatment of the disabled because it puts the idea that that person is to be "punished". That ideology has no place in British culture - which is just as much about compassion for all people as it is freedom of speech - and as such you should not be openly endorsing such a belief when in a position of responsibility as Hoddle was.

Is it offensive to say that somebody will be punished in the next life/ afterlife if they commit sins in this life?

[Batman.]

1 hour ago, Mike E said:

If you can't see how it's disrespectful to so publicly blame millions of people for having their disability based on whimsy, that seems like a pretty bad trait to carry.

With regards your 'actual point', the post I quoted by you stated that I should be able to see through media manipulation of his views, while ignoring entirely the effect that the views themselves had on me (and many other disabled children).

In your haste to excuse Hoddle, I fear you're showing yourself to be as ignorant as him. Or the other option I mentioned. Pity.

The irony is I know a great deal about the faiths that believe such things, whereas you know the square root of sod all.

Yet I'm the ignorant one.

[Vinjay]

2 minutes ago, Leonard Venkhater said:

Some things you really shouldn't have to explain lol..

Anyway, have you ever wondered what we, the good people of Blackburn, must have been in previous lives to deserve Venky's? 

War criminals, child molesters?

...and certainly in my case you can add the Walker family to that. They must have been canonised in a past life. ?

[Leonard Venkhater]

41 minutes ago, Batman. said:

Is it offensive to say that somebody will be punished in the next life/ afterlife if they commit sins in this life?

Oh come on!

Surely, the point is that young children, for instance, or anyone else should not be stigmatised and actually  blamed for their  own disability...oops...now I am thinking you are on the wind up and I have fallen for it lol

[Dreams of 1995]

42 minutes ago, Batman. said:

Is it offensive to say that somebody will be punished in the next life/ afterlife if they commit sins in this life?

Yes. The idea that one will face an eternity of punishment based on the mistakes made whilst in existence is weird. 

What's more, the notion that a perfectly innocent child that would love nothing more than to be abled is to face a life time of invasive care, medical treatments and struggle is simply because he was a bad person previously is terrifying. What awful things could we then do to that child if we are to treat him as such? He/she is innocent and deserves all the compassion we afford able bodied people.

One of the many rules that defines British culture, or indeed the majority of world culture, is that they are "innocent until proven guilty". In the case of a young disabled child there is no crime for which he has committed and is therefore completely innocent. I can't even believe I am having to justify any of this.

In the case of somebody omitting a sin (crime) in this life then it is in this existence in which we punish them (jail, community service, fines) and not in an "afterlife" for which they, or we, have no control over. Learn about context man and stop pushing the "I know more about cultures than you" card.

[Leonard Venkhater]

3 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Yes. The idea that one will face an eternity of punishment based on the mistakes made whilst in existence is weird. 

What's more, the notion that a perfectly innocent child that would love nothing more than to be abled is to face a life time of invasive care, medical treatments and struggle is simply because he was a bad person previously is terrifying. What awful things could we then do to that child if we are to treat him as such? He/she is innocent and deserves all the compassion we afford able bodied people.

One of the many rules that defines British culture, or indeed the majority of world culture, is that they are "innocent until proven guilty". In the case of a young disabled child there is no crime for which he has committed and is therefore completely innocent. I can't even believe I am having to justify any of this.

In the case of somebody omitting a sin (crime) in this life then it is in this existence in which we punish them (jail, community service, fines) and not in an "afterlife" for which they, or we, have no control over. Learn about context man and stop pushing the "I know more about cultures than you" card.

Batman must be The Riddler!

[Mike E]

1 hour ago, Batman. said:

The irony is I know a great deal about the faiths that believe such things, whereas you know the square root of sod all.

Yet I'm the ignorant one.

When you are using that knowledge of those faiths to excuse (or possibly even justify, but benefit of the doubt and all that) a man's comments that disabled people deserve it, yes.

You don't particularly appear to have critiqued the the concept of karma for someone who knows so much.

Knowing about faith doesn't stop you from being ignorant about disability.

Edit- Do1995 said it better.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Mike E

[DraytonRover]

Firstly the belief in the idea that someone is punished for a previous life is purely an act of faith.

But even if you believe that, it only works as a 'punishment' for sins committed in a previous life if the person alive now was aware of those sins they committed in a previous life. Clearly they aren't and therefore it would be the same as being sent to prison without knowing what you had been sent there for. There is no point in a punishment if you don't know what is for as it can't stop you doing it again.

Also as what is deemed 'wrong' changes through time, people would be punished for what is now seen to be good and not punished for what is now seen to be bad. Unless of course you subscribe to a view that these things are laid down form the dawn of time and never change.

From a philosophical and logical point of view the whole theory is b**ll**ks.

[Batman.]

40 minutes ago, DraytonRover said:

From a philosophical and logical point of view the whole theory is b**ll**ks.

As humans every single thing that we think is. We can only perceive 0.0003% of light that exists. Us trying to understand why and how we are here or why we are how we are is infinite times more ludicrous than an ant trying to understand how the Pyramids were built. Being an atheist is just as ridiculous as being an Islamic Extremist in the grand scheme of things. 

When disabled people ask why they are disabled, the essence of every "acceptable" answer is "bad luck." This force (luck) is, in essence, just as abstract or real as karma. Why one is offensive and one isn't, in my opinion, seems odd.

"You have bad luck and everyone else has good luck." That explication seems even more unfair and anger inducing than the "past life sins" in my opinion.

Each to their own. You can only be offended if you have expectations of how other people should behave and of what they should believe.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Batman.

[Vinjay]

13 minutes ago, Batman. said:

Being an atheist is just as ridiculous as being an Islamic Extremist in the grand scheme of things. 

?

[tomphil]

Science or fantasy .......... which do we really believe ?

[Batman.]

25 minutes ago, Vinjay17 said:

?

That's the most intelligent post you've ever made on here. Honoured I provoked it.