Rovers v Birmingham-Saturday ,December 15th

[AAK]

4 minutes ago, Riversider28 said:

I've just about had it with some people on this board singling out Brereton as a reason why we lost a 2-0 lead today. The lad has barely played 90 mins in total so far.

Defensive frailties are the main cause of us losing points throughout the season. This must be addressed in January or we will see ourselves sliding down the table rapidly.

No doubt about it, it's the defence and the defence only. Combined with a poor defensive midfield. Smallwood today at times tracking back was embarrassing

Edited December 15, 2018 by AAK

[Stuart]

59 minutes ago, DaveyB said:

I’m not convinced that Mowbray or his tactics made Raya come charging out and give away a ridiculous penalty, nor made Bell and then Evans give the ball away cheaply and Smallwood completely sell himself instead of covering round. 

And, for however poorly Brereton did when he came on, he too had no effect on those things either. And without them we’d have cruised to a comfortable 2-0 victory - maybe Mowbray should get credit for coaching us into such a commanding position in the first place 

Smallwood was, and continues to be, selected by Mowbray.

You don’t think Brereton had any affect in the game/result? There’s really no way to respond to that.

We seem to keep blaming our hardships on ‘individual errors’ but we are seemingly unable to see out a game without scoring three or more goals. If we keep conceding poor goals then we have the wrong personnel at the back - or the wrong tactics. Both are the manager’s responsibility. Lenihan is sadly not good enough for this division and Mulgrew is in the latter stage of his career. Yet we have spent millions on a substitute striker who doesn’t affect games rather than strengthen. Our centre midfield is a pair League One enforcers who can’t do this in the Championship. We have Raya and nobody to even push him, let alone put him under pressure for the jersey. These are the reasons that people become frustrated with the Brereton situation. We have wasted money we don’t have and neglected positions that need strengthening.

Individual mistakes will happen but our issues are deeper than that. In 22 games we have conceded 2 or more goals in 10 and have 6 clean sheets, (effectively conceding 33 goals in those 16 games) with -4 GD. We rely on Dack (as does Graham) for goals. Take away him and Mulgrew’s set pieces and we don’t have a lot of goals in the team.

Performances are less than convincing and we throw points away with alarming regularity. Fortunately for Mowbray he is under no pressure but that isn’t healthy either. Big January coming up. Acquisitions of Chapman and Gallagher will not impress. In fact, if those are the two we bring in it’s time to sack our scouts.

[Bigdoggsteel]

5 minutes ago, Franky said:

He really must be poor if he doesn’t even compare to Chris Brown.

Joking aside, nobody is blaming Brereton.

More pointing out how we fall apart repeatedly (in fact predictably) when Graham goes off. Today BB came on for Danny to play up top which means doing the same job / type of work. He was either poorly instructed or he was just poor at it. Never got close to winning any balls. We ended up defending which we are crap at and it was 2-2 from a comfortable 2-0 before Graham went off.

We won a few balls, had a couple of runs and got in position to get two shots off. To be honest in his 20 minutes he did as much, if not more, than Graham in the previous 20 minutes. 

Graham going off had nothing to do with what Raya did. We were under no more pressure when Brereton came on. The way people are going on you would swear it turned into the Alamo when Graham went off. 

[blueboy3333]

41 minutes ago, Ossydave said:

Beggars human belief that people are blaming Brereton for the result 

Guess what, teams up their tempo second half when losing 

This is why I hate Ewood Park with a passion, our fans 

Do one to Turf Moor. Problem solved. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

I know we are meant to be building, but when Dack does leave, we better invest that money we'll because that team without him will struggle big time.  There is literally no more creativity 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[Butty]

Can’t blame Brereton for the result today at all, a lot of people have made this point but only a select few could be argued to have singled him out for criticism. Think this point has been made into a bigger issue than it is... I stick by the fact he cannot be blamed for today but I’ll also stick by my opinion that for a club with questionable finances, for us to have spent 7 million pounds on an unproven 19 year old is f**king crazy.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Harlee Dean cost Birmingham 2 million, we could have done worse than snap him up. Lenihan is beginning to concern me a bit. Maybe Downing should have been allowed continue at centre half today, he was doing well. I was less nervous with him there. I suppose he is a natural center half whereas Mulgrew def isn't and you could argue Lenihan isn't either. We seem calmer with him and Mulgrew together. Lenihan plays like he gets very nervous at times, panicky even. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[Stuart]

7 minutes ago, aletheia said:

 Tony’s beloved 4231. No issue with it as such but strange that what is effectively a back 6 can leak so many goals. Perhaps that just comes down to players and ability.

It seems to start off ok but as the game wears on the cracks start to show. You need damned good (and bloody fit) full backs to make it work because of the lack of width. (Laughable that people think that Mahoney should have stayed).

As it is, Bell and even Nyambe aren’t good enough other than as proper full backs. And if that’s the plan, you’d probably play Williams instead of Bell.

[roversfan99]

Come home from a horrible, cold, rainy and windy day again pissed off at Rovers and their inability to see games out which means that I cant see any chance of a faint play off push even at this stage. Can see our season fizzling out and being over very early unless our results in the upcoming run of difficult games is particularly poor and we have to look over our shoulder. I read that we have won 4 out of 11 home games, that simply isnt good enough considering the points we have thrown away or failed to get.

Yes you can point to a mistake as a turning point but its not right to brush it under the carpet because its a common theme. 2 weeks in a row we  have thrown 4 points away totally needlessly and after doing all the hard work.

I hope Mowbray is investigating and trying to solve why we have such a weak underbelly to throw away so many points, rather than putting it down to a specific error or decision and brushing it under the carpet, theres a deeper problem there. 

Graham was superb as always, Reed also very good, thought Evans was pretty neat and tidy aswell in the centre.

Armstrong bar an excellent finish for the goal was poor, Dack was a bright spark and tried but not his best day, Smallwood poor again, centre backs ok,

The 2 full back areas are massive weaknesses for us, Nyambe has seemingly turned back into the fragile player that broke in under Coyle, what was he doing for the second? And we have no cover for him. Bell is an absolute embarrassment of a player, needs replacing in Jan because hes never good enough, Williams is the lesser of 2 evils but down either flank we are so susceptible and often caught out.

For a manager whose gained a reputation for being conservative at the club, and one who plays 2 defensive midfielders who are very limited, especially Smallwood, we concede far too many goals. 

Rayas mistake wasnt the first silly error hes ever made nor will it be the last. His kicking was terrible, he had the excuse of the wind today at least.

The difference between Graham and Brereton is night and day. You can bang on about different types of strikers but Brereton wasnt even challenging for headers, he wasnt holding it up, his touch is awful, his positioning when the ball goes wide is poor in that he often is far too close to the wide man and not in the centre. I must say that hes still to start, but I do find the whole situation a bit bizarre, and I am basing my optimism for him on his reputation and price tag rather than anything I have seen for him. That being said, Danny Graham is a superb Championship striker, another goal and he makes the best out of rubbish service at times.

@Bigdoggsteel you ask why theres so much focus on Brereton, he cost 7m so there will always be a lot of focus on him, to consider him as a scapegoat is both in-factual and laughable, considering the main conversation is about what else we could have spent with the money rather than the player himself.

And all the while, Rothwell and Palmer continue to kick their heels on the sidelines!

[chaddyrovers]

The weather was awful and I just about got warm again. 

I felt very comfortable and never in danger of leading the 2 nil lead. We didn't let them have a chance to the Raya's mistake which he didn't need to come that far out and he has to

be held responsible for today defeat. Nyambe was far too slow for the 2nd goal and it was similar to Robinson's goal at PNE. 

Second half we were passing it well until they scored. Then we stop passing it well and went back to long balls again. So frustrating to watched. 

 

28 minutes ago, Riversider28 said:

I've just about had it with some people on this board singling out Brereton as a reason why we lost a 2-0 lead today. The lad has barely played 90 mins in total so far.

I agreed. They were 4 people behind me today who don't sat there normally but sat there cos the 4 people who normally sat there had gone inside for abit did nothing but continually slated and moaned about Brereton all game and one of those people were mid to late 30's. Total embarrassing to listened to and its no wonder why Mowbray is cautious about using him. I was close to saying something but I really couldn't be assed. 

Today dropped points had nothing to do with Brereton coming on. Plus Graham was injured with a sore back. Guess some people missed this tho. 

also was anyone shock by the booing at Mahoney today? I was. I'm disappointed he left but that was his choice

Edited December 15, 2018 by chaddyrovers

[OldEwoodBlue]

6 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Lenihan is beginning to concern me a bit. Maybe Downing should have been allowed continue at centre half today, he was doing well. I was less nervous with him there. I suppose he is a natural center half whereas Mulgrew def isn't and you could argue Lenihan isn't either. We seem calmer with him and Mulgrew together. Lenihan plays like he gets very nervous at times, panicky even. 

Agree

[G Somerset Rover]

For a supposed midfielder when he was younger, Lenihan is dreadful on the ball. Poor first touch and couldn’t pass wind. He’ll never make it at Championship level or above there which is why I’m guessing BR and ROI management see him as a centre half (and before anyone says, yes I agree his form has been terrible this season there).

Edited December 15, 2018 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[blueboy3333]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

They were 4 people behind me today who don't sat there but sat there cos the 4 people had gone inside for abit 

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Come home from a horrible, cold, rainy and windy day again pissed off at Rovers and their inability to see games out which means that I cant see any chance of a faint play off push even at this stage. Can see our season fizzling out and being over very early unless our results in the upcoming run of difficult games is particularly poor and we have to look over our shoulder. I read that we have won 4 out of 11 home games, that simply isnt good enough considering the points we have thrown away or failed to get.

Yes you can point to a mistake as a turning point but its not right to brush it under the carpet because its a common theme. 2 weeks in a row we  have thrown 4 points away totally needlessly and after doing all the hard work.

I hope Mowbray is investigating and trying to solve why we have such a weak underbelly to throw away so many points, rather than putting it down to a specific error or decision and brushing it under the carpet, theres a deeper problem there. 

Graham was superb as always, Reed also very good, thought Evans was pretty neat and tidy aswell in the centre.

Armstrong bar an excellent finish for the goal was poor, Dack was a bright spark and tried but not his best day, Smallwood poor again, centre backs ok,

The 2 full back areas are massive weaknesses for us, Nyambe has seemingly turned back into the fragile player that broke in under Coyle, what was he doing for the second? And we have no cover for him. Bell is an absolute embarrassment of a player, needs replacing in Jan because hes never good enough, Williams is the lesser of 2 evils but down either flank we are so susceptible and often caught out.

For a manager whose gained a reputation for being conservative at the club, and one who plays 2 defensive midfielders who are very limited, especially Smallwood, we concede far too many goals. 

Rayas mistake wasnt the first silly error hes ever made nor will it be the last. His kicking was terrible, he had the excuse of the wind today at least.

The difference between Graham and Brereton is night and day. You can bang on about different types of strikers but Brereton wasnt even challenging for headers, he wasnt holding it up, his touch is awful, his positioning when the ball goes wide is poor in that he often is far too close to the wide man and not in the centre. I must say that hes still to start, but I do find the whole situation a bit bizarre, and I am basing my optimism for him on his reputation and price tag rather than anything I have seen for him. That being said, Danny Graham is a superb Championship striker, another goal and he makes the best out of rubbish service at times.

@Bigdoggsteel you ask why theres so much focus on Brereton, he cost 7m so there will always be a lot of focus on him, to consider him as a scapegoat is both in-factual and laughable, considering the main conversation is about what else we could have spent with the money rather than the player himself.

And all the while, Rothwell and Palmer continue to kick their heels on the sidelines!

No, the conversation wasn't solely about what we could have spent the money on. Some were saying that him coming on somehow changed the game. Did you not see those posts? Because out of everything that happened in the game, to say that is scapegoating to me. Yes he cost 7 million, so there will be scrutiny, but he was definitely not at fault for what happens today, as some suggested. 

I agree, Danny Graham is a top class championship striker. We are lucky to have him. 

Also agree about Rothwell and Palmer. I was expecting Rothwell to replace Conway today. I was disappointed when it was Armstrong. I don't know what Armstrong can do that Rothwell can't, apart from the odd finish I suppose, but I think as an all round player Rothwell is far more suited to that position. 

[chaddyrovers]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Come home from a horrible, cold, rainy and windy day again pissed off at Rovers and their inability to see games out which means that I cant see any chance of a faint play off push even at this stage. Can see our season fizzling out and being over very early unless our results in the upcoming run of difficult games is particularly poor and we have to look over our shoulder. I read that we have won 4 out of 11 home games, that simply isnt good enough considering the points we have thrown away or failed to get.

Yes you can point to a mistake as a turning point but its not right to brush it under the carpet because its a common theme. 2 weeks in a row we  have thrown 4 points away totally needlessly and after doing all the hard work.

I hope Mowbray is investigating and trying to solve why we have such a weak underbelly to throw away so many points, rather than putting it down to a specific error or decision and brushing it under the carpet, theres a deeper problem there. 

Graham was superb as always, Reed also very good, thought Evans was pretty neat and tidy aswell in the centre.

Armstrong bar an excellent finish for the goal was poor, Dack was a bright spark and tried but not his best day, Smallwood poor again, centre backs ok,

The 2 full back areas are massive weaknesses for us, Nyambe has seemingly turned back into the fragile player that broke in under Coyle, what was he doing for the second? And we have no cover for him. Bell is an absolute embarrassment of a player, needs replacing in Jan because hes never good enough, Williams is the lesser of 2 evils but down either flank we are so susceptible and often caught out.

For a manager whose gained a reputation for being conservative at the club, and one who plays 2 defensive midfielders who are very limited, especially Smallwood, we concede far too many goals. 

Rayas mistake wasnt the first silly error hes ever made nor will it be the last. His kicking was terrible, he had the excuse of the wind today at least.

The difference between Graham and Brereton is night and day. You can bang on about different types of strikers but Brereton wasnt even challenging for headers, he wasnt holding it up, his touch is awful, his positioning when the ball goes wide is poor in that he often is far too close to the wide man and not in the centre. I must say that hes still to start, but I do find the whole situation a bit bizarre, and I am basing my optimism for him on his reputation and price tag rather than anything I have seen for him. That being said, Danny Graham is a superb Championship striker, another goal and he makes the best out of rubbish service at times.

@Bigdoggsteel you ask why theres so much focus on Brereton, he cost 7m so there will always be a lot of focus on him, to consider him as a scapegoat is both in-factual and laughable, considering the main conversation is about what else we could have spent with the money rather than the player himself.

And all the while, Rothwell and Palmer continue to kick their heels on the sidelines!

sorry but before Raya's mistake we were very confortable and Birmingham were never going to scored. Birmingham are a basic team with simple tactics. Mowbray game plan stopped that until Raya's mistake

Thought Bell was decent today. 

Agreed on Armstrong. didn't run with the ball today. but great finish. 

Far too much blaming Brereton for every time he on the pitch and quite honestly I'm getting fed up and tired of it. Its pathetic. Some fans were pathetic with their comments today. 

Yes Graham and Brereton are very different strikers but after they scored we stop passing it short which would suit Brereton much more. 

[DaveyB]

12 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Smallwood was, and continues to be, selected by Mowbray.

You don’t think Brereton had any affect in the game/result? There’s really no way to respond to that.

We seem to keep blaming our hardships on ‘individual errors’ but we are seemingly unable to see out a game without scoring three or more goals. If we keep conceding poor goals then we have the wrong personnel at the back - or the wrong tactics. Both are the manager’s responsibility. Lenihan is sadly not good enough for this division and Mulgrew is in the latter stage of his career. Yet we have spent millions on a substitute striker who doesn’t affect games rather than strengthen. Our centre midfield is a pair League One enforcers who can’t do this in the Championship. We have Raya and nobody to even push him, let alone put him under pressure for the jersey. These are the reasons that people become frustrated with the Brereton situation. We have wasted money we don’t have and neglected positions that need strengthening.

Individual mistakes will happen but our issues are deeper than that. In 22 games we have conceded 2 or more goals in 10 and have 6 clean sheets, (effectively conceding 33 goals in those 16 games) with -4 GD. We rely on Dack (as does Graham) for goals. Take away him and Mulgrew’s set pieces and we don’t have a lot of goals in the team.

Performances are less than convincing and we throw points away with alarming regularity. Fortunately for Mowbray he is under no pressure but that isn’t healthy either. Big January coming up. Acquisitions of Chapman and Gallagher will not impress. In fact, if those are the two we bring in it’s time to sack our scouts.

That’s not what I said, is it?

I said that Brereton wasn’t to blame for the goals that we conceded. Do you disagree? Which of the mistakes that led to the goals would Graham have prevented if he were on the pitch?

I’m not saying that Mowbray doesn’t get things wrong (although I feel that they are highlighted on here far more than the things he gets right), but to lay the blame for today’s dropped points at his door is just plain wrong imo. 

Yes, you can say that the players who f**ked up were selected by him, but as I’ve pointed out, they were also the same players that got us 2-0 up and bossed the game for the most part - so it’s not just as simple as saying if he’d chosen other players we’d have won

[OldEwoodBlue]

2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

No, the conversation wasn't solely about what we could have spent the money on. Some were saying that him coming on somehow changed the game. Did you not see those posts? Because out of everything that happened in the game, to say that is scapegoating to me. Yes he cost 7 million, so there will be scrutiny, but he was definitely not at fault for what happens today, as some suggested. 

I agree, Danny Graham is a top class championship striker. We are lucky to have him. 

Also agree about Rothwell and Palmer. I was expecting Rothwell to replace Conway today. I was disappointed when it was Armstrong. I don't know what Armstrong can do that Rothwell can't, apart from the odd finish I suppose, but I think as an all round player Rothwell is far more suited to that position. 

Actually that is wrong pal

The convo is not about Brereton coming on. It is about Graham going off.

As soon as it happens we are usually fucked.

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 minutes ago, Gavlar Somerset Rover! said:

For a supposed midfielder when he was younger, Lenihan is dreadful on the ball. Poor first touch and couldn’t pass wind. He’ll never make it at Championship level or above there which is why I’m guessing the coaches see him now as a centre half (and before anyone says, yes I agree his form has been terrible this season there).

Ya, he looks to have gone backwards for me. Sheffield United were in for him at around 4 million, so they saw something. He seems to be less tenacious, possibly due to some rash ones earlier in the season. Ya, looks nervous when passing. He wasn't always like that. I suppose all the defence apart from Mulgrew look shakey, that kind of nervousness is contagious. Although Nyambe looks better on the ball, Bell doesn't look nervous, just uncoordinated 

[JHRover]

15 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

sorry but before Raya's mistake we were very confortable and Birmingham were never going to scored. Birmingham are a basic team with simple tactics. Mowbray game plan stopped that until Raya's mistake

Thought Bell was decent today. 

Agreed on Armstrong. didn't run with the ball today. but great finish. 

Far too much blaming Brereton for every time he on the pitch and quite honestly I'm getting fed up and tired of it. Its pathetic. Some fans were pathetic with their comments today. 

Yes Graham and Brereton are very different strikers but after they scored we stop passing it short which would suit Brereton much more. 

I think blaming the comeback purely on Raya's mistake is focusing too much on one issue and not the whole problem. Yes in this game it was clearly his error that gave them the penalty and the foothold to come back into it but they scored 2 goals, and sadly we've thrown away winning positions far too many times this season for them all to be ascribed to individual error or bad fortune. It's a common theme, we're becoming experts at letting winning positions slip and ultimately when happens so frequently you have to look holistically at the team and its approach to winning positions. Do we have what it takes to protect winning positions effectively? If not why not when we've 2 defensive CMs playing all the match every match?

Simply to say it is all Raya's fault and we'd all be happily ever after if he hadn't done what he did I don't think is entirely right. There's a bigger picture in play of a team that for 18 months has been uncomfortable in winning positions and never far away from handing the opposition a leg up.

Edited December 15, 2018 by JHRover

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, JHRover said:

I think blaming the comeback purely on Raya's mistake is foolish. Yes it was clearly his error that gave them the penalty and the foothold to come back into it but they scored 2 goals, and sadly we've thrown away winning positions far too many times this season for them all to be ascribed to individual error or bad fortune. It's a common theme, we're becoming experts at letting winning positions slip and ultimately when happens so frequently you have to look holistically at the team and its approach to winning positions. Do we have what it takes to protect winning positions effectively? If not why not when we've 2 defensive CMs playing all the match every match?

Simply to say it is all Raya's fault and we'd all be happily ever after if he hadn't done what he did I don't think is entirely right. There's a bigger picture in play of a team that for 18 months has been uncomfortable in winning positions and never far away from handing the opposition a leg up.

Birmingham weren't causing us any problems second half until Raya's mistake. FACT! we were looking to score a third and I thought today would be when Brereton score. 

also I said previously that Nyambe was too slow for Birmingham second goal. 

also I said we stop passing then ball to feet and went back to long balls and not suited Dack or Brereton game after Raya's mistake. Why I don't know, 

[JHRover]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Birmingham weren't causing us any problems second half until Raya's mistake. FACT! we were looking to score a third and I thought today would be when Brereton score. 

also I said previously that Nyambe was too slow for Birmingham second goal. 

also I said we stop passing then ball to feet and went back to long balls and not suited Dack or Brereton game after Raya's mistake. Why I don't know, 

Yep, and Stoke weren't causing us any problems when 3-0 up at their place yet we let them back in, Middlesbrough, Ipswich, Forest, the list goes on. We don't do comfortable wins. We've only won 1 by more than a single goal this season. I'm afraid I don't believe that we'd have cruised to victory had Raya not made a mistake, someone somewhere would have made a mistake or we'd have ended up sat really deep and they'd have had a chance. It happens regularly.

We might have been 'looking' to score at third but I don't recall many decent chances to make that happen, except the (Reed?) shot from the edge of the area which was well saved.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

13 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Birmingham weren't causing us any problems second half until Raya's mistake. FACT! we were looking to score a third and I thought today would be when Brereton score. 

also I said previously that Nyambe was too slow for Birmingham second goal. 

also I said we stop passing then ball to feet and went back to long balls and not suited Dack or Brereton game after Raya's mistake. Why I don't know, 

Ya, we were in control til Raya went rogue. It completely changed the game. Usually when keeper give away penalties there are dealing with one and one's and have to commit the foul. Raya shouldn't have even being going for that ball, let alone commuting a foul. It was a nothing ball. They were creating nothing 

We would definitely have dropped deeper regardless, but I don't think Birmingham would have troubled us. That wind was blowing the ball all over the shop. They wouldn't have cut us open, so ili bet the ball would have ended up going astray a lot. The weather would have suited deep defending. 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bigdoggsteel

[Uddersfelt Blue]

Great goal from Armstrong but he is bobbins playing out wide. Chapman would have been a far better option had he been available and hopefully he will be in January.

We desperately need a wide player who can take his man on and get a decent cross in. 

Thought we were good today and but for some idiotic goalkeeping from Raya and a fantastic save from the Brum keeper we would have won that match comfortably.

Trying not to be too negative as this is basically the same team that came up from League 1 and if Mowbray strengthens in key positions then our season could still turn out OK

[arbitro]

I've just seen the Birmingham penalty on Sky and it looks worse than when I saw it in real time. Raya's kicking was poor today also and he was embarrassingly nearly deceived by a bouncing ball in the first half. His performance should give Mowbray a decision to make for next Saturday.

[Oldgregg86]

5 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I'm afraid I don't believe that we'd have cruised to victory had Raya not made a mistake, someone somewhere would have made a mistake or we'd have ended up sat really deep and they'd have had a chance. It happens regularly.

Have to agree. Even after raya gave the penalty away we where still winning with ten minutes to go. A team with any organisation, character and tenacity would see that game out.