What Needs To Change and Where Do We Go From Here?

[Parsonblue]

7 minutes ago, DE. said:

And let's not forget the main reason we need such hefty financial support is because of the destruction they themselves have wrought. The supporters don't need to feel thankful towards them for that as it's their own fault the club is in this position. If anything we should all feel extremely angry that they've put this club in such a vulnerable and unenviable position.

The only times the club has been successful throughout it's history is when it has been propped up with financial support - most clubs are the same.  Jack wanted it to be self sufficient and couldn't make it happen.  I doubt anyone can.  The club is always going to need the financial support of the owners.  When the Trust put the club up for sale it took several years before Venkys arrived.  Nobody saw the Rovers as a club they wanted to buy and invest in.  Today we are in a far worse position than when the Trust put it up for sale so I hardly think there would be a rush to buy in the unlikely event that the owners wanted to sell - and it would appear that they want to stay for the long term.

[tomphil]

Back to the same old arguments and excuses Rovers were propped up by outside financial support of directors even before Jack, hardly any clubs are self sufficient even the huge ones.  It's all about how that backing is used and what that backing is actually for and how those doing it want it used.

Leeds have always has big support and charged big prices for years but it hasn't done them a jot of good until now and look at Sunderland. It's a tired argument these days it's not the 70's or 80's.  Rich men are pumping money in or through clubs left right and centre in the championship for a variety of purposes if truth be told but it's all about the right management on and off the pitch.

An injection of a player actually worth a package deal of 7 million could do a world of good right now !

[Stuart]

11 minutes ago, sympatheticclaret said:

You're a joke , D.E. , the last set of accounts show your owners pumping in £399k a week just to keep the club afloat ...

You need to deal with the actuality, who else would do this ?? If they turned off the taps, Rovers would be in administration by April !!

Eff off back to the turd.

Can’t wait until your club are back where they belong in division 3. Hopefully you’ll run Dyche out of town first and embarrass yourselves on the way down.

It took a bunch of utter shysters to put you above us and we’ll be back above you before long even with this handicap.

Sympathetic my arse.

[tomphil]

20 minutes ago, sympatheticclaret said:

You're a joke , D.E. , the last set of accounts show your owners pumping in £399k a week just to keep the club afloat ...

You need to deal with the actuality, who else would do this ?? If they turned off the taps, Rovers would be in administration by April !!

You've got your own problems like where does all your money actually go ?

Is that director that went bust then left the board then suddenly came back again when the income went back up doing ok these days ????

[des]

we need a very good centre half who can lead and defend, at least one new fullback. and a very good holding  midfield players,  the fitness level is not good enough and work need to be done in this area

[all you need is duff]

I think our main problem is that a lot of our players aren’t anything above bottom six of the Championship in terms of quality. I was very surprised at how we competed against the likes of WBA, Stoke, Villa, etc earlier on in the season with much worse players. Despite obvious failings, Mowbray has done well to make us run our hearts out and be competitive in most games. The Preston and Wigan games - especially Wigan - are the only really concerning ones in terms of effort and competitiveness. 

Who in our team would a top half Championship club want? Dack, Reed, maybe Mulgrew or Graham if they were as good but younger? As others have mentioned, we may lose both Dack and Reed in January and/or August and Mulgrew and Graham will deteriorate with age. 

Despite all getting relegated two years ago, I believe that the likes of Evans, Bennett, Smallwood, Nyambe and Raya are good enough to play regularly for a team that stays up in the Championship but not a lot more. I would have put Williams in this bracket until recent performances which don’t look Championship standard. Bell has also never looked Championship standard. Lenihan and Armstrong occasionally look Championship standard but not regularly enough. 

I think I have named our most regular starters above. The others probably haven’t played enough in the Championship this season to properly judge. 

Some of the players above may improve with experience but we probably need seven or eight of them to improve or be replaced if we are ever going to finish top 6.  The current squad is good enough to stay up if not woefully managed by someone like Coyle. 

In January I would buy a left back because I think neither of our two will ever be at top half Championship level. I would also get a Craig Short type (don’t really know who that is) on loan as well as some competition for Graham. 

[DE.]

25 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

The only times the club has been successful throughout it's history is when it has been propped up with financial support - most clubs are the same.  Jack wanted it to be self sufficient and couldn't make it happen.  I doubt anyone can.  The club is always going to need the financial support of the owners.  When the Trust put the club up for sale it took several years before Venkys arrived.  Nobody saw the Rovers as a club they wanted to buy and invest in.  Today we are in a far worse position than when the Trust put it up for sale so I hardly think there would be a rush to buy in the unlikely event that the owners wanted to sell - and it would appear that they want to stay for the long term.

The Trust were unfortunate in that they simply put the club up for sale at the wrong time. If they'd waited a few more years and kept us in the PL then I imagine they would have had far more lucrative offers. In their haste to jettison us at any cost they fucked us all over. We all know the club is entirely dependent on Venky's, but the reason we are in such insane debt and now practically unsellable is because of the countless mistakes Venky's have made during their tenure. No fan should feel grateful for what they've done or for the owners' support - it's the absolute least they can do, having bought and demolished a club many thousands of people cared and still do care deeply about. If they have even the slightest hint of integrity within them they will keep this club afloat for as long as is necessary without expecting a shred of gratitude from any of us. 

If they get us back into the PL and wipe the debts, maybe we can reconsider, but even that won't erase the negative experiences they've carelessly bestowed on thousands of fans, not to mention driving business and livelihoods directly and indirectly linked to the club into the ground. There's a lot of bad karma there.

[47er]

1 hour ago, Parsonblue said:

At the end of the day they are here for as long as they want to be and at the moment we couldn't cope without their financial support.  I looked at Leeds today with a full-house paying premium prices - and that's what we have to compete with.  The Championship is becoming rather like the Premier League in terms of being an uneven playing field.

Burnley did it. Huddersfield did it. Their owners aren't as rich as ours. But what they lack in wealth they make up for in common sense and commitment.

[Stuart]

8 minutes ago, DE. said:

The Trust were unfortunate in that they simply put the club up for sale at the wrong time. If they'd waited a few more years and kept us in the PL then I imagine they would have had far more lucrative offers. In their haste to jettison us at any cost they fucked us all over. We all know the club is entirely dependent on Venky's, but the reason we are in such insane debt and now practically unsellable is because of the countless mistakes Venky's have made during their tenure. No fan should feel grateful for what they've done or for the owners' support - it's the absolute least they can do, having bought and demolished a club many thousands of people cared and still do care deeply about. If they have even the slightest hint of integrity within them they will keep this club afloat for as long as is necessary without expecting a shred of gratitude from any of us. 

If they get us back into the PL and wipe the debts, maybe we can reconsider, but even that won't erase the negative experiences they've carelessly bestowed on thousands of fans, not to mention driving business and livelihoods directly and indirectly linked to the club into the ground. There's a lot of bad karma there.

And it would have almost certainly made us unaffordable to Venkys!

[47er]

6 minutes ago, DE. said:

The Trust were unfortunate in that they simply put the club up for sale at the wrong time. If they'd waited a few more years and kept us in the PL then I imagine they would have had far more lucrative offers. In their haste to jettison us at any cost they fucked us all over. We all know the club is entirely dependent on Venky's, but the reason we are in such insane debt and now practically unsellable is because of the countless mistakes Venky's have made during their tenure. No fan should feel grateful for what they've done or for the owners' support - it's the absolute least they can do, having bought and demolished a club many thousands of people cared and still do care deeply about. If they have even the slightest hint of integrity within them they will keep this club afloat for as long as is necessary without expecting a shred of gratitude from any of us. 

If they get us back into the PL and wipe the debts, maybe we can reconsider, but even that won't erase the negative experiences they've carelessly bestowed on thousands of fans, not to mention driving business and livelihoods directly and indirectly linked to the club into the ground. There's a lot of bad karma there.

Yes, that perfectly sums up my attitude to them.

[47er]

Just now, Stuart said:

And it would have almost certainly made us unaffordable to Venkys!

? ? ?

[47er]

1 hour ago, Parsonblue said:

At the end of the day they are here for as long as they want to be and at the moment we couldn't cope without their financial support.  I looked at Leeds today with a full-house paying premium prices - and that's what we have to compete with.  The Championship is becoming rather like the Premier League in terms of being an uneven playing field.

When Venkys took over our attendances averaged about 25000. something to build on there but look they did with it. Our attendances are a direct result of what they did. there was no historical inevitability about it, just rank incompetence (being kind and careful there).

[sympatheticclaret]

31 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Eff off back to the turd.

Can’t wait until your club are back where they belong in division 3. Hopefully you’ll run Dyche out of town first and embarrass yourselves on the way down.

It took a bunch of utter shysters to put you above us and we’ll be back above you before long even with this handicap.

Sympathetic my arse.

I think a lot of League 1 / Championship Clubs would like the " handicap " of wealthy owners investing £399k a WEEK, by way of further share purchases ... If you know of another potential owner prepared to fund the Club to this extent, then please let us know ...

Looking forward to next year's Championship Derby ....

[sympatheticclaret]

52 minutes ago, tomphil said:

You've got your own problems like where does all your money actually go ?

Is that director that went bust then left the board then suddenly came back again when the income went back up doing ok these days ????

Repayment of directors loans & other debt, long needed upgrading of our Training facilities and Ground, Players wages and into our Profit & Loss account ...

He's doing fine, thanks !

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, all you need is duff said:

I think our main problem is that a lot of our players aren’t anything above bottom six of the Championship in terms of quality. I was very surprised at how we competed against the likes of WBA, Stoke, Villa, etc earlier on in the season with much worse players. Despite obvious failings, Mowbray has done well to make us run our hearts out and be competitive in most games. The Preston and Wigan games - especially Wigan - are the only really concerning ones in terms of effort and competitiveness. 

Who in our team would a top half Championship club want? Dack, Reed, maybe Mulgrew or Graham if they were as good but younger? As others have mentioned, we may lose both Dack and Reed in January and/or August and Mulgrew and Graham will deteriorate with age. 

Despite all getting relegated two years ago, I believe that the likes of Evans, Bennett, Smallwood, Nyambe and Raya are good enough to play regularly for a team that stays up in the Championship but not a lot more. I would have put Williams in this bracket until recent performances which don’t look Championship standard. Bell has also never looked Championship standard. Lenihan and Armstrong occasionally look Championship standard but not regularly enough. 

I think I have named our most regular starters above. The others probably haven’t played enough in the Championship this season to properly judge. 

Some of the players above may improve with experience but we probably need seven or eight of them to improve or be replaced if we are ever going to finish top 6.  The current squad is good enough to stay up if not woefully managed by someone like Coyle. 

In January I would buy a left back because I think neither of our two will ever be at top half Championship level. I would also get a Craig Short type (don’t really know who that is) on loan as well as some competition for Graham. 

Evans is a nothing player - what does he bring to the team exactly? He gets a nosebleed when he crosses the half-way line and he's hardly a terrier in defence!

Smallwood is just terrible. He's the new Keith Andrews, the game just passes him by. 

The less said about Armstrong the better. He's a slow-witted striker that can't finish. His pace creates him chances in League One, but at this level he brings nothing to the table. 

 

In Raya, Nyambe, Mulgrew, Bell, Reed, Rodwell, Rothwell, Dack and Graham you have the basis of of a very good Championship team. It's simply not a good division - it never has been, really. 

We're absolutely crying out for a no-nonsense CB to partner with Mulgrew. Lenigan isn't that player. We're also desperate for some pace upfront. At the moment Dack and Graham are isolated and are, therefore, entirely ineffective. 

The problem with Mowbray is that he refuses to play Reed, Rodwell and Rothwell (either entirely or in their correct positions) and has stuck with his favourites. Our defence is shaky, as they can't defend a ball into the box, and our attack is laboured. It feels like he's trying to win every game 1-0, often from a Mulgrew set piece. 

 

If we stick with the current formation then we need to pair Reed and Rodwell in CM, find a good pacy left winger in January and stick Rothwell on the other side to balance out the attack.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by Exiled_Rover

[AllRoverAsia]

8 hours ago, philipl said:

We need an animal of a centre half in January.

Won't be surprised if we now go and win at Bramall Lane. 

 

We needed that animal at CB as soon as Hanley and Duffy left. It was stressed then and has been ever since but ignored by Coyle and Mowbray and owners who refuse to spend on decent defenders.

Teams are built from the back, always has been that way always will be.

The majority of our players are workmanlike, average at best and a few, AA and Williams as examples, L1 standard. We are miles away from any promition campaign.

[AllRoverAsia]

7 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Odd that 30% of your post is about Rodwell. I don't really get what that's about. 

Anyway, that aside. We need a good, specialist centre half to play beside Mulgrew. Someone commanding and good in the air. We got away with 2 converted midfielders and a young goalkeeper in League 1. There is something responsible for the nervous panic that takes place when holding a lead. I suspect it is this. 

Strange Rodwell is singled out. I would have done the same as him at Sunderland re wages, they had very rich iwners ffs.

Coleman as manager at Rovers? Jesus wept.

[USABlue]

First and foremost, change SOMETHING.  Let's start by playing the best pmayers in THEIR best positions if that mean we have gaps go sign the players to fill the gaps.  Would Rothwell work with Smallwood.  Evans has been a lot better tail end if last season and early on this BUT will it continue with his new contract.  No nonsonse centre half, maybe two, a killer a brute that can pass once in a while.  Can't believe I'm abiut to say this but is there anyone else thinks we looked a bit mire solid through the middle at the back when downing had Lenihans spot.  Another full back who can replace Bell/Williams until he can learn to keep the ball and direct a pass.  Another striker that can tussle with tall defenders give them a hard time with high balls.  A new assistant for Mowbary, defensive specialist that can pull together four defenders to play as a UNIT last but not least HOWARD KENDALL would be nice olaying or managing lol.  Tony's had a lot going for him, the feelgood factor WAS coming back it took forever and a day for it to start.let's try not to lose it altogether.

[USABlue]

3 hours ago, sympatheticclaret said:

Repayment of directors loans & other debt, long needed upgrading of our Training facilities and Ground, Players wages and into our Profit & Loss account ...

He's doing fine, thanks !

Just go worry about your own selves not us thank you.

[philipl]

Seems to be a consensus we need a tall commanding centre half. 

Probably need a fitness coach too.

But it has to be an organising centre half. After we had scored the free kick there was no talking or geeing up between the team to hold we had- yesterday.

Incidentally Dack was easily the most skillful player on the park yesterday. If he goes we are in deep trouble because teams against us currently have to be ready for him beating two or three players on the odd occasion we actually pass the ball to him.

As for the sack cloth and ashes stuff- all clubs usually go through a bad spell. It was the Preston and Wigan defeats which mark this spell out as particularly bad. We are no going to play 1st and 2nd in consecutive games again. 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by philipl

[DeeCee]

2 hours ago, USABlue said:

I was trying to stay within the rules but if I remember correctly you always had a hard time with that heh heh, merry belated Christmas old mate and all the best for the New Year.

And the same to you and yours mate ?

[robbojohnno]

The problem is Mowbray doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes and the same problems keep reoccurring. I'm not sure his coaching staff are up to it at this level, we don't have a style of play when we have the ball and seem to rely on the likes of Dack and Graham or even Mulgrew producing a moment of magic. He refuses to accept that the likes of Williams and Evans are quite simply not good enough at this level, I'd even argue they didn't do a great deal in League 1 bar the odd spell of form. We have managed to sign Reed on loan who appears to be a quality central midfield player but Mowbray carries on with other poorer options and plays Reed out of position. Lastly his transfers in the summer look to be a disaster in Brereton and Armstrong so there isn't much hope in January. Worrying times but he deserves more time.

[JBiz]

My own personal answer to the thread topic;

Our expectations need to change, and our opinion of players/manager/staff shouldn’t be based on one or two games against the best teams in this league.

The time for big decisions is a long way off.

[Mattyblue]

It’s simple. A good percentage of those players aren’t good enough if the club wants to progress.

The ‘loyalty to those that got us here’ was a laudable approach, though a little over sentimental for my taste, but the upgrades need to now begin in earnest.

[47er]

3 minutes ago, Biz said:

My own personal answer to the thread topic;

Our expectations need to change, and our opinion of players/manager/staff shouldn’t be based on one or two games against the best teams in this league.

Nothing to do with one or two games, we are in a serious slump.

Moreover ,the manner of defeat requires serious work.