Brentford v Rovers

[Sparks Rover]

Starts with the goalie. Need to get a new one in who can calm the feck down. This lad is a few years away from what we need.  I've heard all the argument about his shot stopping etc, a reflex thing which he should be as he is young. The rest of his game is not at promotion into the premier league level and the sooner we replace him the better.  Tony needs to oust a few and stop being so nice.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, JeffRover said:

The plot thickens when you consider the following:

Home goals conceded in 15 league games -  15

Away goals conceded in 15 league games -  31

You read that right, we’ve conceded THIRTY ONE away goals this season. That is a truly staggering statistic and quite frankly a disgrace. I know we have conceded some silly goals at home (the Birmingham game springs to mind) but what is so fundamentally different about our approach to away games, as quite often it’s the identical back 4 to the home games?

Unbelievable isn't it. We've conceded one more goal than Wigan.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Mellor Rover

[DE.]

12 hours ago, JeffRover said:

The plot thickens when you consider the following:

Home goals conceded in 15 league games -  15

Away goals conceded in 15 league games -  31

You read that right, we’ve conceded THIRTY ONE away goals this season. That is a truly staggering statistic and quite frankly a disgrace. I know we have conceded some silly goals at home (the Birmingham game springs to mind) but what is so fundamentally different about our approach to away games, as quite often it’s the identical back 4 to the home games?

It is shocking, but I think it's mainly a confidence thing. I've said it many times but there are too many nice lads in this team who are great when the going is good, as it often is when we're playing at home, but have a tendency to crumble when the pressure is on - whether that be from the opposing team or the opposing fans. We need an Andy Todd or a Ryan Nelsen in there barking orders and banging heads together when things start to go awry. Instead we have a group of players who collectively glance at each other guiltily after conceding and saunter back to the centre circle, confidence and purpose suddenly eradicated through self-doubt. The ability is there - we wouldn't be where we are if it wasn't - but the team is missing a true leader to galvanise and refocus the players when things get tough. 

[blueboy3333]

I think Rich Sharpe made a good point when he said when the game gets stretched we really struggle. Also, all the teams we've been hammered by away from home all move the ball around with pace.

I just think that defence is poor when put under sustained pressure by the better footballing sides. 

[arbitro]

A lot of goals we concede are from individual errors I think. Nearly every one of our defenders has weaknesses which nothing seems to have been done to address these as we see these errors on a regular basis. Our full backs allow to many crosses to come in virtually unopposed, Lenihan thinks he has to win every ball and gets caught out of position by doing so. He also has a tendency to concede silly free kicks by diving in. Raya is poor in his decision making when coming off his line, not just for crosses but when a ball is knocked over the top. There are others weaknesses amongst the other players but these are the glaringly obvious ones to me.

[JHRover]

It might be me making it up but how often does it happen in these away games that we end up getting thrashed AND end the game with multiple injuries or personnel issues.

If it isn't bad enough getting comprehensively beaten having been in decent positions (Brentford, Sheff Utd, Bristol City, Swansea) it always seems to coincide with 2 or 3 players hobbling off the pitch injured, making all of our substitutions early on.

Again on Saturday, we reach half time in 'reasonably' good health i.e. our starting XI still on the pitch, still in the game, and within 15 minutes of that point we've made all 3 substitutions, lost numerous players to knocks and niggles and end up all over the place, unable to make any more changes and walking wounded, and it is game over.

It happened in similar fashion at Bristol City - a good start, could have been out of sight after the first 30 minutes, then things very quickly unravel and we've made all 3 substitutions after 70 minutes and end up getting walloped.

A poor use of substitutions but we're back to the old story of asking whether Danny Graham is able to play for 90 minutes twice or thrice a week. I don't think he can but he is so indispensable to our play that we have to try him with no back-up or alternatives and inevitably he gets these knocks and niggles (given the way he plays and role he fills he is bound to take a bashing on the pitch and pick up these knocks. Problem is we've allowed all these windows to pass by and not get remotely close to a suitable replacement for him.

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by JHRover

[Dreams of 1995]

These type of results come down to one thing at the end of the day: a weak back 4. This needed to be addressed in the summer but it's with blatantly obvious that it needs a radical overhaul.

A left back, right back and centre back is required. Preferably the centre half will be experienced and cost £££. Mulgrew, Rodwell or Lenihan are not the answers; neither of them have been a centre half through and through.

Bring back Samba. Some blood and guts man. Next time I see a ball bounce in the box I'll be tempted to run on and head it myself.

[Guest]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

These type of results come down to one thing at the end of the day: a weak back 4. This needed to be addressed in the summer but it's with blatantly obvious that it needs a radical overhaul.

A left back, right back and centre back is required. Preferably the centre half will be experienced and cost £££. Mulgrew, Rodwell or Lenihan are not the answers; neither of them have been a centre half through and through.

Bring back Samba. Some blood and guts man. Next time I see a ball bounce in the box I'll be tempted to run on and head it myself.

It's not until you watch other teams you realise how square pegged our back 4 is. 

Bennett must be in the bottom 5 players in the league as a right back yet plays there ahead of a fit again Nyambe. Rodwell and Lenihan look solid against the big guys but any sort of pace and movement and they're pulled from pillar to post. Don't think Bell had a bad game again though, seemed to have a fairly comfortable grip on his man again and is showing some signs of progress.

I'm aware we kept 3 clean sheets in a row before Brentford but its not the first time these guys have been hammered and it won't be the last. If Lenihan's injury is as bad as it looks then we've got Mulgrew and Rodwell as the only capable cb's as I'd back myself 1v1 against Williams. But that's the risk we took loaning Downing out.

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, Mellor Rover said:

It's not until you watch other teams you realise how square pegged our back 4 is. 

Bennett must be in the bottom 5 players in the league as a right back yet plays there ahead of a fit again Nyambe. Rodwell and Lenihan look solid against the big guys but any sort of pace and movement and they're pulled from pillar to post. Don't think Bell had a bad game again though, seemed to have a fairly comfortable grip on his man again and is showing some signs of progress.

I'm aware we kept 3 clean sheets in a row before Brentford but its not the first time these guys have been hammered and it won't be the last. If Lenihan's injury is as bad as it looks then we've got Mulgrew and Rodwell as the only capable cb's as I'd back myself 1v1 against Williams. But that's the risk we took loaning Downing out.

The 3 clean sheets might have tricked people into thinking our defensive woes are lessening but Saturday showed that the problem is still there. It's no shameful thing to lose to Brentford but the manner of our second half performance was abysmal. As soon as that first goal went in against us I knew we'd lose; there isn't a man at the back I would say will take control of the line and whip both the defenders and midfielders into shape.

We are the only team in the "play off contention" pack on a minus goal difference. Only Villa have conceded more and I'm pretty sure up until January they had 1 out & out centre half on the books in James Chester. Therein lies your problem. When you look at the other teams around us all have centre halves that would walk into our squad. Hell, Sheffield United have one of the best in the league and he's one of our own! 

This squad is a work in progress and this season I can forgive the occasional tanking. If the problem isn't addressed next year though you have to start questioning whether the manager sees it as a problem or not. We were tentatively linked with 3 strikers this month but not one defender...why when scoring goals doesn't seem to be our problem? 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

4 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

It's not until you watch other teams you realise how square pegged our back 4 is. 

Bennett must be in the bottom 5 players in the league as a right back yet plays there ahead of a fit again Nyambe. Rodwell and Lenihan look solid against the big guys but any sort of pace and movement and they're pulled from pillar to post. Don't think Bell had a bad game again though, seemed to have a fairly comfortable grip on his man again and is showing some signs of progress.

I'm aware we kept 3 clean sheets in a row before Brentford but its not the first time these guys have been hammered and it won't be the last. If Lenihan's injury is as bad as it looks then we've got Mulgrew and Rodwell as the only capable cb's as I'd back myself 1v1 against Williams. But that's the risk we took loaning Downing out.

Regarding Downing some of us said we were a bit hasty letting him go given the fitness history of Lenihan, Rodwell and Mulgrew. Of course we've still got Williams.

[DE.]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Of course we've still got Williams.

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Regarding Downing some of us said we were a bit hasty letting him go given the fitness history of Lenihan, Rodwell and Mulgrew. Of course we've still got Williams.

Somehow. He must count his blessings every morning that he's classed as a footballer.

[Bigdoggsteel]

I think it's a fair point to say that when we collapse, we collapse spectacularly. I find this interesting as this team is always disused as being close and prepared to fight for each other, great team spirit etc. I just find these collapses don't tally with this. All I saw Saturday after they scored their second was heads drop. No fight, no battle. It's frustrating when your keeper does that, but Raya is still young. The impression I got watching was that the rest of the players blamed him, dropped tools and basically gave up trying. I knew at half-time that we needed the next goal. If they scored first I knew them winning was a certainty. 

[DE.]

6 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think it's a fair point to say that when we collapse, we collapse spectacularly. I find this interesting as this team is always disused as being close and prepared to fight for each other, great team spirit etc. I just find these collapses don't tally with this. All I saw Saturday after they scored their second was heads drop. No fight, no battle. It's frustrating when your keeper does that, but Raya is still young. The impression I got watching was that the rest of the players blamed him, dropped tools and basically gave up trying. I knew at half-time that we needed the next goal. If they scored first I knew them winning was a certainty. 

Team spirit isn't just about the lads getting on with each other, playing FIFA tournaments, taking videos of each other in the shower (wtf was that about anyway?) and so on... a bigger part of that is getting the best out of each other on the pitch and being able to collectively deal with adversity and high pressure situations. I have no doubt that the general mood in the camp is happy, content, satisfied, and so on... but as far as team spirit is concerned I'd say we're only half way there, otherwise you wouldn't see these kinds of collapses happening over and over again, whether it's losing a lead in the final few minutes or getting absolutely hammered by average teams. People talk about Brentford being a good team, but the fact remains they're 17th and the last time they scored 5 goals in a match was the start of the season when they beat Rotherham. 

[Guest]

Just now, DE. said:

Team spirit isn't just about the lads getting on with each other, playing FIFA tournaments, taking videos of each other in the shower (wtf was that about anyway?) and so on... a bigger part of that is getting the best out of each other on the pitch and being able to collectively deal with adversity and high pressure situations. I have no doubt that the general mood in the camp is happy, content, satisfied, and so on... but as far as team spirit is concerned I'd say we're only half way there, otherwise you wouldn't see these kinds of collapses happening over and over again, whether it's losing a lead in the final few minutes or getting absolutely hammered by average teams. People talk about Brentford being a good team, but the fact remains they're 17th and the last time they scored 5 goals in a match was the start of the season when they beat Rotherham. 

Spirit gets you so far, occasionally you need good defenders to win matches,

[DE.]

Just now, Mellor Rover said:

Spirit gets you so far, occasionally you need good defenders to win matches,

Ideally, but even so collapsing to a 5-2 defeat against Brentford having been 2-1 up at HT suggests the so-called team spirit at the club isn't as strong as we might think, especially when you consider the 4-1 hammerings we took at Preston and Bristol City. Then there was the no-show in the 3-1 defeat at Wigan, the points we threw away against Birmingham, Boro, Leeds & Norwich, not being able to beat the likes of Rotherham at home... I don't know. There's a lot of question marks there for me. 

Our goals conceded column does suggest a pretty big problem with our defensive play though. I hesitate to just blame the back four & goalie as I think we also have problems with midfielders giving adequete protection to the full backs and centre backs. Corry Evans has been a constant as a defensive midfielder in a team which has never been able to stop leaking goals. Bennett/Nyambe and Bell/Williams rarely get protection, although to be fair to our wingers I think they're meant to be playing as inside forwards which means they technically wouldn't have the same defensive duties you would associate with out and out wingers or wide midfielders. That's a tactical issue that Mowbray has never addressed and at this point I'm not sure he will ever address it.

Nonetheless we've overall conceded more than everyone below us except Rotherham and Ipswich. If we go through a lean spell in front of goal then things could get quite difficult. We should be OK for this season but our defensive issues urgently need to be addressed in the summer. 

[JHRover]

Just now, DE. said:

People talk about Brentford being a good team, but the fact remains they're 17th and the last time they scored 5 goals in a match was the start of the season when they beat Rotherham. 

This is an important point. For all the comparisons to Real Madrid by the manager and talk after the game about what a brilliant side they are the fact remains that they're another struggling side at the wrong end of the table who we have had over a barrel yet managed to let the game slip through our fingers and ended up not just losing but getting demolished.

I think it comes back to an assortment of issues. We're not fit enough as a team and don't have enough depth to the squad - hence we end up knackered and patched up after 60-70 minutes as we pick up a collection of knocks and niggles and have to use up all our subs on replacing those carrying knocks rather than making tactical changes to change the game in our favour. We seem to have issues in protecting leads, particularly away from home - 22 points relinquished from winning positions in 30 games is crazy and points to poor game management and difficulty in absorbing pressure for any sustained period (this goes back to last season although we got away with it on most occasions then).

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

16 minutes ago, DE. said:

Team spirit isn't just about the lads getting on with each other, playing FIFA tournaments, taking videos of each other in the shower (wtf was that about anyway?) and so on... a bigger part of that is getting the best out of each other on the pitch and being able to collectively deal with adversity and high pressure situations. I have no doubt that the general mood in the camp is happy, content, satisfied, and so on... but as far as team spirit is concerned I'd say we're only half way there, otherwise you wouldn't see these kinds of collapses happening over and over again, whether it's losing a lead in the final few minutes or getting absolutely hammered by average teams. People talk about Brentford being a good team, but the fact remains they're 17th and the last time they scored 5 goals in a match was the start of the season when they beat Rotherham. 

What's this about pics in the shower now? 

 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

What's this about pics in the shower now? 

 

Dacky was giving Brereton banter when he was in the shower on Instagram. Not sure what the fuss he's referring to is really haha.

[OJRovers]

Saturday begs the question, why have Smallwood on the bench if he's not going to come on in games like that?

Winning the game, Evans and Travis getting completely overrun. Why not bring on Smallwood to sit in front of the defence?

Instead, Conway comes on and bizzarely spends his first 15 minutes playing in the Dack role that he's not played before.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

29 minutes ago, OJRovers said:

Saturday begs the question, why have Smallwood on the bench if he's not going to come on in games like that?

Winning the game, Evans and Travis getting completely overrun. Why not bring on Smallwood to sit in front of the defence?

Instead, Conway comes on and bizzarely spends his first 15 minutes playing in the Dack role that he's not played before.

 

If Mowbray brought Smallwood on instead of Dack and they scored, can you imagine what the reaction on here would be? 

[rigger]

19 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

If Mowbray brought Smallwood on instead of Dack and they scored, can you imagine what the reaction on here would be? 

The problem seems to be that our subs are decided by pecking order rather than what is best for the team 

[Bigdoggsteel]

14 minutes ago, rigger said:

The problem seems to be that our subs are decided by pecking order rather than what is best for the team 

Not my point. If Smallwood was brought on for Dack and the game finished 5-2, all you would see on here is that it was "typical Mowbray being too cautious and only bringing on his favourites". The move to bring on an attacking player for Dack was the right one IMO. We needed to score next. It probably should have been Rothwell brought on though. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[DE.]

5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Not my point. If Smallwood was brought on for Dack and the game finished 5-2, all you would see on here is that it was "typical Mowbray being too cautious and only bringing on his favourites". The move to bring on an attacking player for Dack was the right one IMO. We needed to score next. It probably should have been Rothwell brought on though. 

Much like Bowyer, I think Mowbray prefers the grafters to the creative players. Probably feels less anxious with a worker bee like Conway on the pitch as opposed to the less predictable Rothwell. Unfortunately this mentality isn't going to get us to where we need to be. Sometimes you need to be brave. 

[roversfan99]

51 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

If Mowbray brought Smallwood on instead of Dack and they scored, can you imagine what the reaction on here would be? 

Im not quite sure what your point is here. Yes, he will be criticised if he makes subs whose impact on the game is in the opponents favour. Thats being a manager. Conversely, if he brought someone on (Conway is no longer an attacking sub) who impacted on the game positively he would have been praised.