Defence

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 minute ago, JHRover said:

The manager takes responsibility. He coaches the team, works with them every day, picks the players on matchday, has had chance to replace any he doesn't think are good enough. If all those goals are down to individual mistakes or loss of bottle then that still falls back onto Mowbray - he's signed/kept/coached these players so if they keep losing their bottle in games or making frequent mistakes then it is his fault.

I've no interest in how many goals we concede from set-pieces any more than how many we score from set-pieces. It doesn't matter. They're all goals.

So which defenders would you get rid of so? 

[K-Hod]

Being honest, I think the defence/goalkeeper situation needs a complete overhaul.

Either a new right back or one to compete with Nyambe.

A new left back with Bell as back up, Williams can go.

2x new centre backs really. I'd be fine with Rodwell in midfield or in a back three, but not that comfortable with him in a two. Mulgrew will need to be replaced sooner rather than later. With that comes more issues as his goals will take some replacing, so we either need another set piece specialist somewhere or a centre back that scores a fair bit.....

Raya either needs to be coached better/more and we need someone to come in and compete with him. Leutwiler may be that man, but it appears that he has absolutely no chance of getting into the team as it stands, no matter what Raya does.

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

So which defenders would you get rid of so? 

Where did I suggest getting rid of anyone? Point was that this is the manager's team, he has either signed everyone, given them contracts or has had ample opportunity to replace them if not deemed good enough. So suggesting that our defensive woes are the result of errors or mistakes that aren't the manager's fault but the players cannot be correct - if it is all down to individual errors and not poor team organisation then it is still the manager's remit to deal with that - by either coaching it out of those players or getting shut of them and signing others.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

4 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Where did I suggest getting rid of anyone? Point was that this is the manager's team, he has either signed everyone, given them contracts or has had ample opportunity to replace them if not deemed good enough. So suggesting that our defensive woes are the result of errors or mistakes that aren't the manager's fault but the players cannot be correct - if it is all down to individual errors and not poor team organisation then it is still the manager's remit to deal with that - by either coaching it out of those players or getting shut of them and signing others.

 

Ample opportunity? He stuck with the players who got us promoted by and large, players he mostly inherited. So, having looked at them this season, he will need to remedy the situation this summer. 

Individual errors are not the mangers fault, to say they are is silly and you aren't usually a poster of too much silliness by and large. It's the managers fault if he chooses not to replace said players, particularly repeat offenders. 

So you think he should just stick with them and try and coach the mistakes out? Fair enough. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ample opportunity? He stuck with the players who got us promoted by and large. So, having looked at them this season, he will need to remedy the situation this summer. 

So you think he should just stick with them and try and coach the mistakes out? Fair enough. 

I'm not having that. Mowbray has been manager of the club for 2 years. He's had 4 transfer windows, a healthy budget by most accounts, supposed freedom to do things as he wants. He's an experienced manager who has operated at Premier league, Championship and League One level for 10 years+ so should know straight away whether the players he has are good enough or not and act accordingly. Not give them a full season to 'prove' themselves before having to replace them when they can't do it.

It's his decision what he does and it will be his neck on the line. We have 3 options:

1) stick with what we are doing, which is one of the worst defences in this league.  I know enough about this game to know that if we continue to ship goals at the rate we are doing then sooner or later we WILL end up in trouble at the wrong end of the table

2) stick with the same personnel but try to change things through different coaching - this is for the manager to work on every day in training and the proof will be in the pudding when the players cross the line - at the moment whatever he is doing isn't working because we're still making the same mistakes and conceding goals galore

3) change the personnel - get out there into the transfer market and replace those players with ones who won't keep making mistakes - once again this is the manager's job and he has cash to do it by his own admission.

Whichever way you prefer to do things the manager is the one who has to sort it out and deal with it, and it will be the manager who carries the can if he doesn't. Suggesting that the manager is blameless and it's all down to sloppy individual errors is nonsense.

[Exiled in Toronto]

2 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Howard Kendall and Sam Allardyce knew how to set up defences with largely players they inherited. It's a skill that our present manager doesn't have. 

Kendall inherited Faz and Keeley, Sam inherited Nelsen and Samba. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

6 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I'm not having that. Mowbray has been manager of the club for 2 years. He's had 4 transfer windows, a healthy budget by most accounts, supposed freedom to do things as he wants. He's an experienced manager who has operated at Premier league, Championship and League One level for 10 years+ so should know straight away whether the players he has are good enough or not and act accordingly. Not give them a full season to 'prove' themselves before having to replace them when they can't do it.

It's his decision what he does and it will be his neck on the line. We have 3 options:

1) stick with what we are doing, which is one of the worst defences in this league.  I know enough about this game to know that if we continue to ship goals at the rate we are doing then sooner or later we WILL end up in trouble at the wrong end of the table

2) stick with the same personnel but try to change things through different coaching - this is for the manager to work on every day in training and the proof will be in the pudding when the players cross the line - at the moment whatever he is doing isn't working because we're still making the same mistakes and conceding goals galore

3) change the personnel - get out there into the transfer market and replace those players with ones who won't keep making mistakes - once again this is the manager's job and he has cash to do it by his own admission.

Whichever way you prefer to do things the manager is the one who has to sort it out and deal with it, and it will be the manager who carries the can if he doesn't. Suggesting that the manager is blameless and it's all down to sloppy individual errors is nonsense.

4 windows, 2 of which were while we were in League 1. He kept the players who went down and they were good enough to bring us back up. This season they have been found out a bit, so the summer is when he needs to act and remove and replace accordingly. Repeatedly saying over and over again that it is the managers fault isn't constructive to the conversation in the thread. 

So, to clarify as you can be like a politician at times refusing to answer a straight question- you think we should keep what we have and Mowbray should just coach them better, correct? 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[Exiled in Toronto]

I think the make up of the defence has got away from Mowbray and needs a complete retooling.

Raya has played 100 games and his distribution, decision making and command of the six yard box haven’t improved at all.

Nyambe has improved but makes too many mistakes and offers zilch going forwards.

Lenihan I’d keep as long as we replace Mulgrew who is little more than a special teams kicker. Both him and Rodwell look great strolling out from the back but neither is a proper stopper, bullying forwards and putting their bollocks on the line.

Williams and Bell are terrible, made even worse by having Charlie as the last defender when they mess up.

All of Mowbrays other issues are flea bites compared to the state of the defence.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Exiled in Toronto

[JHRover]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

4 windows, 2 of which were while we were in League 1. He kept the players who went down and they were good enough to bring us back up. This season they have been found out a bit, so the summer is when he needs to act and remove and replace accordingly. Repeatedly saying over and over again that it is the managers fault isn't constructive to the conversation in the thread. 

So, to clarify as you can be like a politician at times refusing to answer a straight question- you think we should keep what we have and Mowbray should just coach them better, correct? 

No, I think the problem is two fold. Partly it is down to the way we play - we crumble under pressure - this has been going on since last season when we managed to get away with it because we were playing garbage sides. Clean sheets have been very rare, particularly away from home. There is something structurally wrong with the way we defend as a team. Call it what you want - lack of discipline, lack of nous, lack of leadership - but it keeps rearing its ugly head and has done for too long to ignore it any further.

It is also partly down to personnel not being good enough.

I think I said yesterday that I would be looking to offload Williams and Downing in the summer, Bell would be on the bench (at best), I'd sign a new CB and RB, but would keep Nyambe, Lenihan and Mulgrew.

Do you agree that coaching, recruitment and tactics are all the remit of the manager and at least one of those things needs improving on for our defensive record to improve?

[Bigdoggsteel]

44 minutes ago, JHRover said:

No, I think the problem is two fold. Partly it is down to the way we play - we crumble under pressure - this has been going on since last season when we managed to get away with it because we were playing garbage sides. Clean sheets have been very rare, particularly away from home. There is something structurally wrong with the way we defend as a team. Call it what you want - lack of discipline, lack of nous, lack of leadership - but it keeps rearing its ugly head and has done for too long to ignore it any further.

It is also partly down to personnel not being good enough.

I think I said yesterday that I would be looking to offload Williams and Downing in the summer, Bell would be on the bench (at best), I'd sign a new CB and RB, but would keep Nyambe, Lenihan and Mulgrew.

Do you agree that coaching, recruitment and tactics are all the remit of the manager and at least one of those things needs improving on for our defensive record to improve?

I have said recruitment is absolutely key this summer. With regards training and tactics, obviously they are the remit of the manager, but basic defending in a flat back 4 isn't rocket science. We aren't what I would call a cevelier or open team. So I think he needs to replace those who aren't doing their jobs. 

I think you touch on a key issue and that is buckling under pressure. It's up to Mowbray to somehow sort that, but I will just add that having Jason Steele in goals didn't help and I wonder if having Raya there creates panic sometimes. To develop the point let's consider the relationship between Friedel, Samba and Nelsen. I would say that was an even relationship where they could call each other out if necessary. Now let's think of our current set up, would Raya give any of our defenders a bollocking let alone give Mulgrew one? Would he demand Mulgrew or Lenihan get the f##k out of his way? I don't see it but maybe those who attend games regularly could add to this discussion. What do you think? 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[blueboy3333]

5 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ok, so the defence needs work , I think we can all agree on that. Below is what we have, if I left anyone out, please let me know, others on here would know more about the under 23s than I.  

GK- Raya Leutwiler

 Raya will start next season, I don't think there is any doubt about that. So, I think we need a more experienced back up. When Raya bust his face open, I personally feel he was rushed back. That must be because Mowbray doesn't trust Leutwiler. We need competition. I do like Raya a lot. He could be a top championship keeper. He is a bit small though. 

RB-Nyambe

I am not even including Bennett here and I think there may be a few good lads in the under 23s. I have no issue with Nyambe starting. Although it seems he may have fallen out of favour a bit. If we received an offer of circa £3-5 million, would you be tempted to cash in? Personally I wouldn't sell him. Again though, we need competition here.  

LB- Bell, Williams

Willaims can go. There are many issues with him, but I have never seen a player misplace as many passes as Williams does. One game against Portsmouth last season sticks in my mind, I think her got the assist 2nd half, but first half he must have given it away 7 times. We need serious competition for Bell. He looks good on the ball at times, he just really ,really worries me under the high ball. 

CB-Mulgrew, Lenihan, Rodwell, Wharton, Magloire, Platt

So this is where things get very interesting. Realistically one of Mulgrew and Lenihan need to go, would everyone agree on that? So, which one? Would people be tempted by a £5 million bid for Lenihan? 

Can what we have be coached to be better? I can't see Lenihan , Mulgrew or even Rodwell being happy sitting on the bench for the majority of the time, but something has got to give. 

Discuss 

 

If you think Lenihan or Mulgrew should go then I question your judgement.

And Williams is a better defender than Bell IMO. 

Raya needs serious competition. He has cost us more goals than he's saved this season. 

[jim mk2]

1 hour ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Kendall inherited Faz and Keeley, Sam inherited Nelsen and Samba. 

And they made them (and the team) better. 

[jim mk2]

3 hours ago, S8 & Blue said:

Just wondering if you can pinpoint some goals we’ve conceded where organisational issues were mainly to blame rather than individual mistakes/loss of bottle.

I didn’t think we conceded too many from set pieces for example but I might be getting that wrong.

Genuine question.

Set pieces are irrelevant. Goals are goals, whereever they come from. Mowbray carries the can on all team matters - selection, motivation, organisation and coaching. If individual players are coming up short, he should replace them with better ones. If he doesn't have the money to get replacements, his job is to improve them though coaching. It's his job - and at the moment he's not doing it. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

19 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

If you think Lenihan or Mulgrew should go then I question your judgement.

And Williams is a better defender than Bell IMO. 

Raya needs serious competition. He has cost us more goals than he's saved this season. 

So you would be happy with a defence next season which is identical to this seasons? Or at least Mulgrew and Lenihan still the favoured combo at centre half? 

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

So you would be happy with a defence next season which is identical to this seasons? Or at least Mulgrew and Lenihan still the favoured combo at centre half? 

I think they should still be at the club. Its about adding someone else for competition, not getting rid of the best two CB's at the club. 

A better keeper and a far better LB are vital if we want to progress. Raya has potential but makes some dreadful errors. 

[BlackburnEnd75]

33 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

If you think Lenihan or Mulgrew should go then I question your judgement.

And Williams is a better defender than Bell IMO. 

Raya needs serious competition. He has cost us more goals than he's saved this season. 

I don't think he is. He's better in the air that's about it. He's been abysmal this season

[Bigdoggsteel]

21 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

I think they should still be at the club. Its about adding someone else for competition, not getting rid of the best two CB's at the club. 

A better keeper and a far better LB are vital if we want to progress. Raya has potential but makes some dreadful errors. 

I agree with you about Raya. I just wonder will Mulgrew or Lenihan be happy to sit on the bench and we know how Mowbray is with players who want to leave. I would like them to stay too ideally,but I would like us to sign someone who is good enough that they will have a chance to actually start. 

[AAK]

We need a whole new defence for me, and not just that, we need a proper defensive midfielder, people may think that's Reed, but it's not, because Tony plays him on the wing for some bizarre reason. So a new DM essential, a new CB, a new left back and a new right back not to replace nyambe but to challenge him, we have no other right back at the club and I'm fed up of "he can play there" type of players, just buy someone who can play in that position. Mulgrew not a great CB, struggles at time with the pace and his own physical ability, maybe put him at central mid if he has to play. Lenihan potential but looks immature at the moment, downing will be gone. Rodwell isn't a CB, and neither is Williams. Bell isn't good enough at LB and neither is Williams.

also a new goalkeeping coach who can reach raya how to catch a ball and how to distribute the ball.

Edited February 15, 2019 by AAK

[Exiled in Toronto]

54 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

And they made them (and the team) better. 

If you count making Samba lumber up and down the field to not win Pedersen’s ‘long’ throws as better.

[jim mk2]

10 minutes ago, AAK said:

We need a whole new defence for me, and not just that, we need a proper defensive midfielder, people may think that's Reed, but it's not, because Tony plays him on the wing for some bizarre reason. So a new DM essential, a new CB, a new left back and a new right back not to replace nyambe but to challenge him, we have no other right back at the club and I'm fed up of "he can play there" type of players, just buy someone who can play in that position. Mulgrew not a great CB, struggles at time with the pace and his own physical ability, maybe put him at central mid if he has to play. Lenihan potential but looks immature at the moment, downing will be gone. Rodwell isn't a CB, and neither is Williams. Bell isn't good enough at LB and neither is Williams.

also a new goalkeeping coach who can reach raya how to catch a ball and how to distribute the ball.

So start from scratch because they're all not good enough. Cheaper to replace the manager than replace that lot ! 

[tomphil]

2 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Being honest, I think the defence/goalkeeper situation needs a complete overhaul.

Either a new right back or one to compete with Nyambe.

A new left back with Bell as back up, Williams can go.

2x new centre backs really. I'd be fine with Rodwell in midfield or in a back three, but not that comfortable with him in a two. Mulgrew will need to be replaced sooner rather than later. With that comes more issues as his goals will take some replacing, so we either need another set piece specialist somewhere or a centre back that scores a fair bit.....

Raya either needs to be coached better/more and we need someone to come in and compete with him. Leutwiler may be that man, but it appears that he has absolutely no chance of getting into the team as it stands, no matter what Raya does.

With Raya we have a situation of a novice coaching a novice i'm 100% convinced he'd be a more rounded keeper if John Keeley was still coaching them. As it is he's learning on the job but probably just going through the motions inbetween as where else is he gaining knowledge and in game advice from ?

[tomphil]

7 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

So start from scratch because they're all not good enough. Cheaper to replace the manager than replace that lot ! 

We've been down that road god knows how many times, we need some proper defenders to form a proper unit and use some of these as back up. Only way TM or anyone else will cut down on the sloppy goals we concede is a complete change of style going to the pragmatic percentage game where they all go compact and deep just hitting long balls etc, big Sam way basically.

We'd still concede and then score bugger all at the other end - Quality, steel and knowhow badly needed in summer.

Will it arrive ?  Will it balls !

[Rogerb]

Would be good if Brad Freidel could be persuaded to work with Raya. A good friend made the comment on Tuesday while watching Chorley that Raya needed to be working with an experienced keeper as competition to keep him focused. Clearly that's not Leutwiler

[scotchrover]

7 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Howard Kendall and Sam Allardyce knew how to set up defences with largely players they inherited. It's a skill that our present manager doesn't have. 

Would agree with that about Mowbray after what I saw against Reading. I’ve got a season ticket too, before anyone comments ?. 

The big difference between Allardyce and Mowbray is that we commit more men forward. Allardyce basically had 10 men defending for 80 minutes of the game, where as Mowbray likes to commit men forward, and rightly so, in order to give us the best chance of scoring. Allardyce’s brand wasn’t half crap to watch too. I refused to renew my season ticket after his first full year in charge.

Mowbray’s biggest downfall is the way he organises the team to defend. We never man mark, unless it’s a set piece. It’s all zonal marking. Those goals on Weds night, and ones previous to that, show our back line to be very lax in the way they pick oppositions players up. They need to be bang, smack next to them, not close them. 

The other issue we’ve got is pace. Mulgrew and Rodwell, albeit it  technically gifted, are ridiculously slow. I’d be looking to move those to next to Lewis Travis in a deep lying midfield role, and investing some younger lads to sit alongside Lenihan. 

To contradict my last point though- we probably could sign some decent, younger defenders, but unless Mowbray tells them to be breathing down there neck, when we’re on the back foot, we are absolutely goosed! 

[scotchrover]

4 hours ago, blueboy3333 said:

If you think Lenihan or Mulgrew should go then I question your judgement.

And Williams is a better defender than Bell IMO. 

Raya needs serious competition. He has cost us more goals than he's saved this season. 

Williams is an absolute liability. I still can’t get over how Downing left on loan and that joker managed to stay. 

I agree about Raya though. A proper keeping coach would help too.