Mowbray’s Future

[Stuart]

28 minutes ago, Mike E said:

Thing it wasn't 'knowingly in favour' of anyone. They would've rested players whoever they were against, provided there was no threat to Huddersfield.

I also think Warner is above being told what to do by an opposing manager tbh. Or perhaps Villa and Steve Bruce should be fined for allowing us to win? It was all over the media and even featured on The BBC that it'd suit Villa for us to win, plus their fans almost demanded it happen.

Funny that Redknapp didn't agree with you. He very much felt the need to remind Wagner. He will probably have similar mind games against Bristol next week. "Fantastic job they've done. Nothing left to prove. One or two of their boys will be tired after a long season and I'm sure me old pal Johnno will want to have a look at some of his youngsters ahead of the Summer. Well, I would."

Sorry Mike you are wrong with this one. 10 changes is not reasonable. Not even if their fans paid reserve team prices and it was advertised as such. The rule was written for a reason.

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Did Wagner know a fine was likely I wonder? I suppose if they won, there would be no fine. Such a  weak punishment. A point or two deduction would actually make managers think twice 

I would imagine Wagner knew a fine was very likely but I don't suppose he, the Huddersfield fans or owners will give a flying one if they go up via the play-offs.

You're right that if the sanction were to have teeth a points deduction is necessary but the problem is it's a very subjective issue. Where do you draw the line? What if he rested 3-4 players, lost, but claimed he felt they were slightly fatigued and needed a break?

You're also opening a very dangerous can of worms. What if say Burton and Sunderland were contesting the play off positions next season? I'm sure the powers that be wouldn't need much encouragement to dock Burton a point or two to ensure they're not damaging the Premier League profile the following season.........   

[Stuart]

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

I would imagine Wagner knew a fine was very likely but I don't suppose he, the Huddersfield fans or owners will give a flying one if they go up via the play-offs.

You're right that if the sanction were to have teeth a points deduction is necessary but the problem is it's a very subjective issue. Where do you draw the line? What if he rested 3-4 players, lost, but claimed he felt they were slightly fatigued and needed a break?

You're also opening a very dangerous can of worms. What if say Burton and Sunderland were contesting the play off positions next season? I'm sure the powers that be wouldn't need much encouragement to dock Burton a point or two to ensure they're not damaging the Premier League profile the following season.........   

The league and FA set limits all the time.

Squad size

Number of subs

Number of loanees from one club

Number of loanees in a match day squad

It's reasonable to rest four or five players. Six changes would be a lot. Anything else isn't your strongest side. I expect teams would just invent injuries to players to get round it.

Sadly, there is no integrity in football. When it became a squad game with more players not on the field than on it, this problem was going to happen. Teams can now cherry pick which games they want to compete in. It makes corruption very likely and integrity of the game is shot. Money rules. The only way it can be combatted is for the punishments to be means tested. If Huddersfield go up then they lose half of their PL income in fines. They certainly wouldn't do it then.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Stuart

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, Stuart said:

The league and FA set limits all the time.

Squad size

Number of subs

Number of loanees from one club

Number of loanees in a match day squad

It's reasonable to rest four or five players. Six changes would be a lot. Anything else isn't your strongest side. I expect teams would just invent injuries to players to get round it.

Sadly, there is no integrity in football. When it became a squad game with more players not on the field than on it, this problem was going to happen. Teams can now cherry pick which games they want to compete in. It makes corruption very likely and integrity of the game is shot. Money rules. The only way it can be combatted is for the punishments to be means tested. If Huddersfield go up then they lose half of their PL income in fines. They certainly wouldn't do it then.

No one used to complain when big Sam clearly used to prioritise games........

I agree with your point about docking PL income but again the problem is it's an extremely subjective issue. What's deemed reasonable for a "big" club to do might not be the same as for a "smaller" club.

[Stuart]

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

No one used to complain when big Sam clearly used to prioritise games........

I agree with your point about docking PL income but again the problem is it's an extremely subjective issue. What's deemed reasonable for a "big" club to do might not be the same as for a "smaller" club.

Pretty sure (I've not checked) that even Sam never made 10 changes.

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, Stuart said:

Pretty sure (I've not checked) that even Sam never made 10 changes.

Numerically not maybe but when you're playing Samba upfront on his own at Anfield and get stuffed 4-0 ......  

[Stuart]

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

Numerically not maybe but when you're playing Samba upfront on his own at Anfield and get stuffed 4-0 ......  

You've got a point there. But I don't expect any of the teams up at the top of the table would have had differential treatment. We weren't good enough to beat Liverpool with our strongest team, while Huddersfield are certainly good enough to beat a crap 10 men Birmingham and chose not to.

Again, the rule about playing your strongest side is there for a reason.

It's still morally wrong - even if Rovers did it. But, again again, I'd be mad if we threw away momentum going into the play-offs. Resting players isn't an exact science. Truly hope that Huddersfield miss out. Maybe I should put a bet on them just to make sure.

[AllRoverAsia]

The Conman defends the Cheat. Odd that 'Arry feels such a defence of the arrogant German keaner is even necessary given that all is above board.

I more upset that the Conman is benefiting than anything else.

He should have been sanctioned years ago. They got him in court then screwed up.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/610287/Blackburn-news-David-Wagner-Huddersfield-fine-10-changes-Birmingham-Harry-Redknapp

Edited May 1, 2017 by AllRoverAsia

[Stuart]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

The Conman defends the Cheat. Odd that 'Arry feels such a defence of the arrogant German keaner is even necessary given that all is above board.

I more upset that the Conman is benefiting than anything else.

He should have been sanctioned years ago. They got him in court then screwed up.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/610287/Blackburn-news-David-Wagner-Huddersfield-fine-10-changes-Birmingham-Harry-Redknapp

Well, the fact that there is a fine makes a mockery of the subjectivity argument.

The only debate then is the level of punishment. The cost of a week's wages for a single player is no deterrent. It needs to be proportional to the overall gain or involve points deductions.

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, Stuart said:

Well, the fact that there is a fine makes a mockery of the subjectivity argument.

The only debate then is the level of punishment. The cost of a week's wages for a single player is no deterrent. It needs to be proportional to the overall gain or involve points deductions.

The more I think about what has been done the angrier I get.

It has distorted the relegation dog fight. If we go down and we do so because we are pants ok I can handle that. Huddersfields action has changed that landscape.

If we are relegated then Huddersfield become another reason why trade and jobs are lost in the Club and Town.

Others are struggling to divorce our being crap from the actions of Huddersfield.

Huddersfields action has demeaned the whole of rhe EFL. Wagner says its my team I'll do what I want. Time for the EFL to stand up to that abuse.

Edited May 1, 2017 by AllRoverAsia

[Stuart]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

The more I think about what has been done the angrier I get.

It has distorted the relegation dog fight. If we go down and we do so because we are pants ok I can handle that. Huddersfields action has changed that landscape.

If we are relegated then Huddersfield become another reason why trade and jobs are lost in the Club and Town.

Others are struggling to divorce our being crap from the actions of Huddersfield.

Agree completely. There are 5 or 6 crap teams in this division. All for different reasons. Relegation can come down to fine margins.

I still have a great dislike for Tevez, Mascherano and West Ham for what they did and the impact it had on Sheffield United all those years ago. West Ham were rewarded for cheating and Sheffield United just expected to accept they hadn't been good enough. In reality fine margins, and borderline cheating cost one and benefitted the other.

[AllRoverAsia]

Anyway as this is the TM thread.

To distract my attention from Relegation Day or REXIT I had a look at TMs stats since he's been at Rovers.

Played 14, won 4 28.60%, drawn 7 50%, lost 3 21.40%.

Scored 14, conceeded 15, GD  -1.

19 points, average 1.35 per game.

Over a full season that would give a points total of 62 and a modest negative GD equating to upper mid table safety.

In the short term too many draws but he did tighten the defence but at the expense of scoring enough to convert  draws into wins.

Given that he inherited Coyles crap he's done ok. Maybe not enough to save us but better than I expected.

If we stay up I hope he stays and is helped by Senior and Cheston...... I know.....

If we go down and if I were TM I would be out and about using the above stats achieved at what could be said to be a "failed Club" to help find a new job.......not necessarily telling Senior whats planned.

[Rover_Shaun]

I thought football was a squad game?

 

Stop bleating. We're going down because we deserve to

[JHRover]

Just now, Rover_Shaun said:

I thought football was a squad game?

 

Stop bleating. We're going down because we deserve to

Again, the issue for me here isn't Huddersfield's decision to make wholesale changes so much as the failure on the part of the EFL to enforce their own rules.

I know that the reason we're in this position is mostly to do with our own clubs horrendous failings over the last few years. 

But the fact remains that there is a rule in place in black and white that clearly states that full strength sides should be fielded at all times. 

I can't see how Huddersfield can argue they didn't rest players, and thus broke the rule. Of course we know why they did it, but that doesn't mean the rule should be ignored. We'll get the typical outcome - a nominal fine to top up the bank balance down at London HQ and to tick the box of taking action.

[47er]

8 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

No one used to complain when big Sam clearly used to prioritise games........

I agree with your point about docking PL income but again the problem is it's an extremely subjective issue. What's deemed reasonable for a "big" club to do might not be the same as for a "smaller" club.

I can clearly remember people complaining. 

[Oldgregg86]

26 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Again, the issue for me here isn't Huddersfield's decision to make wholesale changes so much as the failure on the part of the EFL to enforce their own rules.

I know that the reason we're in this position is mostly to do with our own clubs horrendous failings over the last few years. 

But the fact remains that there is a rule in place in black and white that clearly states that full strength sides should be fielded at all times. 

I can't see how Huddersfield can argue they didn't rest players, and thus broke the rule. Of course we know why they did it, but that doesn't mean the rule should be ignored. We'll get the typical outcome - a nominal fine to top up the bank balance down at London HQ and to tick the box of taking action.

If you rest one player it isn't your strongest team. If mulgrew is fit and we rest him that isn't our strongest team. It's such a vague rule that cannot be policed. Every manager should do what's best for his team. The onus is on rovers to beat Brentford not Huddersfield to beat Birmingham

[Mike E]

42 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Again, the issue for me here isn't Huddersfield's decision to make wholesale changes so much as the failure on the part of the EFL to enforce their own rules.

I know that the reason we're in this position is mostly to do with our own clubs horrendous failings over the last few years. 

But the fact remains that there is a rule in place in black and white that clearly states that full strength sides should be fielded at all times. 

I can't see how Huddersfield can argue they didn't rest players, and thus broke the rule. Of course we know why they did it, but that doesn't mean the rule should be ignored. We'll get the typical outcome - a nominal fine to top up the bank balance down at London HQ and to tick the box of taking action.

So why haven't we been fined every game?

[AggyBlue]

Just now, Mike E said:

So why haven't we been fined every game?

Don't be obtuse.

This is how we end up getting pages and pages of rubbish. You should know better.

[roverandout]

8 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

The Conman defends the Cheat. Odd that 'Arry feels such a defence of the arrogant German keaner is even necessary given that all is above board.

I more upset that the Conman is benefiting than anything else.

He should have been sanctioned years ago. They got him in court then screwed up.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/610287/Blackburn-news-David-Wagner-Huddersfield-fine-10-changes-Birmingham-Harry-Redknapp

Mowbary said huddersfield have been winning consistently all year, which is not true

[Stuart]

5 hours ago, Oldgregg86 said:

If you rest one player it isn't your strongest team. If mulgrew is fit and we rest him that isn't our strongest team. It's such a vague rule that cannot be policed. Every manager should do what's best for his team. The onus is on rovers to beat Brentford not Huddersfield to beat Birmingham

With an odd player here and there it can easily be described as tactical. Maybe Mulgrew isn't the best against a pacey striker?

Stop trying to defend TEN changes. It's not right, it's not reasonable and it's outlawed.

Four or five changes would be considered reasonable by any fan. Ten is outrageous. Redknapp has done them up like a kipper. Now that they are looking like being fined he will play a much stronger side in his last game right before the first play-off game, making a mockery of his 'strategy'. Genuinely hope they miss out.

[AllRoverAsia]

7 hours ago, Rover_Shaun said:

I thought football was a squad game?

 

Stop bleating. We're going down because we deserve to

That may well be the case and has nothing to do with Wagner's actions.

[Oldgregg86]

11 minutes ago, Stuart said:

With an odd player here and there it can easily be described as tactical. Maybe Mulgrew isn't the best against a pacey striker?

Stop trying to defend TEN changes. It's not right, it's not reasonable and it's outlawed.

Four or five changes would be considered reasonable by any fan. Ten is outrageous. Redknapp has done them up like a kipper. Now that they are looking like being fined he will play a much stronger side in his last game right before the first play-off game, making a mockery of his 'strategy'. Genuinely hope they miss out.

Whilst I admit "arry" isn't the image of innocence why are people doubting David wagners professional integrity ?

I don't recall either of them having previous or past links to even suggest something so sinister could be arranged. Even with all the changes I'm sure he still wanted to win.

You could argue ten changes are tactical strategy . After all the aim of a season is to be promoted.

If roles where reversed and mulgrew  and Bennett got injured/suspended and then we lost in the play offs people would be calling mowbray all sorts.

There is no saying Birmingham wouldn't have won 5-0 against the first team with people shirking challenges, avoiding bookings and going through the motions. I.e like Villa and most teams on Sunday will be doing.

How do you define the importance of each individual players worth to the team. For example billing and mooy could have played and been the difference on Saturday between a win and a defeat with eight players rested and nothing being said. Rest two or three of your most influential players and get beat and that's ok ? 

Huddersfield owe nobody anything providing these rumours of redknapp somehow doing both team talks aren't true. That rule is a token gesture and any decent lawyer can argue a way around it. 

If we where already down do you want the loanees playing Sunday or do you want to look at Doyle , Travis, Wharton, Tomlinson for next season.  Steele has been our number 1 keeper all season yet Raya has earned the shirt with a few games to spare. Are Huddersfield players not deserving of a chance to prove their worth , especially how well so many did against city.

Good luck Huddersfield in the play offs it's down to us on Sunday to prove we are worth a place in this league

 

[AllRoverAsia]

Pathetic Wagner defences

I hope H get to the play off final.

I hope one or the following occurs:

They get trounched and humiliated 5-0 

Or

The play brilliant tippy tappy but can't score and lose to a most dodgy penalty in the final minute of extra time.

Screw them.

There I feel better now.

 

[Mike E]

7 hours ago, AggyBlue said:

Don't be obtuse.

This is how we end up getting pages and pages of rubbish. You should know better.

I was actually joking with that post, should've winked.

[DE.]

10 hours ago, JHRover said:

I know that the reason we're in this position is mostly to do with our own clubs horrendous failings over the last few years. 

It's completely, not mostly. Huddersfield have nothing to do with us failing to win 34 out of 45 of this season's matches. That's all Rovers. 

The fact is Huddersfield were losing to our relegation rivals with a full strength team and when they were still chasing something. There's no reason to think a full strength team - most of whom would have been looking to avoid injury - would have fared any better. If the situation was reversed and Rovers had put out an understrength team I doubt we'd be complaining and demanding that the league take severe action against us.

We are where we are because we're a @#/? team with @#/? players, a @#/? manager for most of the season and @#/? owners. Nothing to do with Huddersfield and personally I could not care less how they perform in the playoffs or in the future. Every ounce of anger should be directed towards Venky's and nobody else for leaving us in a position where a team like Huddersfield actually have a say in whether we get relegated or not. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by DE.