Mowbray’s Future

[Bigdoggsteel]

11 minutes ago, DE. said:

The amount of people who genuinely want Mowbray out are so small in number that it genuinely isn't even worth mentioning. Unfortunately as soon as someone posts "Mowbray Out" it somehow morphs into everybody with a legitimate concern or criticism apparently wanting him out as well, although at most only one or two people have actually said so. 

I dunno. 1 or 2 have said it directly and straight out like that, however I have read a good few say that they don't think he can bring us to the next level. Isn't that just a roundabout way of saying the same thing? 

[JeffRover]

Let’s not beat around the bush here, Mowbray has done a spectacular job in so many aspects on and off the field. We are no longer talked about in the media as one of those “comedy clubs”. The progress we have made since February 2017 in results, points, league position and value of the playing squad is significant. The biggest complement I can pay to Mowbray is this forum now (in the main) discusses the football rather than other off field issues. However, people talk about Mowbray having faults. This is absolutely true, just like every other manager in this division. If a manager didn’t have faults they certainly wouldn’t be managing in this league! In the cold light of day, we are a newly promoted club who are having a highly respectable mid - Table season (just like Sheffield Utd) last season. I think people who say they dont have faith in Mowbray to get us promoted have jumped the gun slightly (he did it with WBA). However, I would have concerns about him being out of his depth at Premier League level (a bit like Warnock), but let’s not lose sight of the bigger picture this season and the job he’s done generally while at this club.

[Bigdoggsteel]

17 minutes ago, JeffRover said:

Let’s not beat around the bush here, Mowbray has done a spectacular job in so many aspects on and off the field. We are no longer talked about in the media as one of those “comedy clubs”. The progress we have made since February 2017 in results, points, league position and value of the playing squad is significant. The biggest complement I can pay to Mowbray is this forum now (in the main) discusses the football rather than other off field issues. However, people talk about Mowbray having faults. This is absolutely true, just like every other manager in this division. If a manager didn’t have faults they certainly wouldn’t be managing in this league! In the cold light of day, we are a newly promoted club who are having a highly respectable mid - Table season (just like Sheffield Utd) last season. I think people who say they dont have faith in Mowbray to get us promoted have jumped the gun slightly (he did it with WBA). However, I would have concerns about him being out of his depth at Premier League level (a bit like Warnock), but let’s not lose sight of the bigger picture this season and the job he’s done generally while at this club.

I think he would do great in the Premier league. At least his setting us up as the underdogs for each game would actually be the case! 

[DE.]

34 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I dunno. 1 or 2 have said it directly and straight out like that, however I have read a good few say that they don't think he can bring us to the next level. Isn't that just a roundabout way of saying the same thing? 

Nope. I feel the same way but I don't want him out. I think he deserves and has earned time to prove me wrong, and I'm sure it's the same for anybody else with similar doubts. 

[Ewood Ace]

1 hour ago, JeffRover said:

I think people who say they dont have faith in Mowbray to get us promoted have jumped the gun slightly (he did it with WBA). 

That was 11 years ago though the game has moved on a lot in that time. Coyle and Lambert have both got teams promoted since then but no one would be backing either of them to get us promoted either.

[JeffRover]

2 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

That was 11 years ago though the game has moved on a lot in that time. Coyle and Lambert have both got teams promoted since then but no one would be backing either of them to get us promoted either.

I agree to an extent, but the acid test I use for managers is success in 2 or more different jobs. Coyle had 1 good job, Lambert 1 good job. However, Mowbray did a good job at Hibs, WBA and here so in my view can be seen as a far superior manager to the aforementioned.

[Ewood Ace]

3 minutes ago, JeffRover said:

I agree to an extent, but the acid test I use for managers is success in 2 or more different jobs. Coyle had 1 good job, Lambert 1 good job. However, Mowbray did a good job at Hibs, WBA and here so in my view can be seen as a far superior manager to the aforementioned.



Harsh on Lambert to say he's only done one good job.

[JeffRover]

Just now, Ewood Ace said:

Harsh on Lambert to say he's only done one good job.

It might be harsh but when you break it down - 

Failed at : Livingston, Villa, Rovers, Wolves, Stoke and Ipswich

mediocre at: Colchester and Wycombe

successful at : Norwich

For the sake of fairness I’ll give him 0.5 for 2 mediocre jobs but that still leaves him on 1.5 good jobs!

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, JeffRover said:

It might be harsh but when you break it down - 

Failed at : Livingston, Villa, Rovers, Wolves, Stoke and Ipswich

mediocre at: Colchester and Wycombe

successful at : Norwich

For the sake of fairness I’ll give him 0.5 for 2 mediocre jobs but that still leaves him on 1.5 good jobs!

I think he did a pretty good job at Villa especially when you look at what has happened since he left and also considering that Lerner had lost interest and he had little money to spend. Also getting League 2 Wycombe to the League Cup semi final was an incredible achievement.

[DE.]

Keeping Villa up over multiple seasons was a success in my book. He did well at Wycombe too. Not sure Wolves can be considered a failure, would say pretty average before he was ousted by the agent takeover.

Seems to have lost steam over the past few years though. Made some odd career moves - keeps jumping into impossible jobs. We were a difficult one at the time, Stoke almost unsalvageable and Ipswich needing a miracle to survive. He'll need to get Ipswich back up next season to restore his reputation. 

[roversfan99]

43 minutes ago, DE. said:

Keeping Villa up over multiple seasons was a success in my book. He did well at Wycombe too. Not sure Wolves can be considered a failure, would say pretty average before he was ousted by the agent takeover.

Seems to have lost steam over the past few years though. Made some odd career moves - keeps jumping into impossible jobs. We were a difficult one at the time, Stoke almost unsalvageable and Ipswich needing a miracle to survive. He'll need to get Ipswich back up next season to restore his reputation. 

You mention the difficulty of the jobs at Stoke and Ipswich, but their previous managers were doing particularly poorly, amidst allegations of dressing room unrest. Lambert came into both jobs and has had absolutely no impact at all, hes won 2 in 15 and 2 in 16 which is embarrassing, matching or perhaps even worse than those sacked for incompetence prior.

You compare that to Mowbray, he inherited a shit situation and he failed in his first task of survival, as Lambert did at Stoke and will do at Ipswich. Differemce being there was a notable difference between the results of Mowbray and the previous failing manager, his win and point accumulation was markedly improved.

His one skill is to manage to deflect any blame elsewhere.

[DE.]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You mention the difficulty of the jobs at Stoke and Ipswich, but their previous managers were doing particularly poorly, amidst allegations of dressing room unrest. Lambert came into both jobs and has had absolutely no impact at all, hes won 2 in 15 and 2 in 16 which is embarrassing, matching or perhaps even worse than those sacked for incompetence prior.

You compare that to Mowbray, he inherited a shit situation and he failed in his first task of survival, as Lambert did at Stoke and will do at Ipswich. Differemce being there was a notable difference between the results of Mowbray and the previous failing manager, his win and point accumulation was markedly improved.

His one skill is to manage to deflect any blame elsewhere.

You can't blame him for taking the job at Stoke, I bet he couldn't believe he was even offered it. Very strange appointment. Ipswich was a hopeless job but yeah, no improvement results wise. I expected a bit better from him down here. He'll need to get it right next season at Ipswich or that might be it for him at any decent level. Then again, if Coyle can fail repeatedly and keep getting offered positions... 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 hours ago, JeffRover said:

It might be harsh but when you break it down - 

Failed at : Livingston, Villa, Rovers, Wolves, Stoke and Ipswich

mediocre at: Colchester and Wycombe

successful at : Norwich

For the sake of fairness I’ll give him 0.5 for 2 mediocre jobs but that still leaves him on 1.5 good jobs!

If he was that mediocre at Colchester why did Norwich head hunt him ? I seem to remember Norwich came for him after his Colchester team dicked Norwich by 5 or 6-1.

[chaddyrovers]

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

You mention the difficulty of the jobs at Stoke and Ipswich, but their previous managers were doing particularly poorly, amidst allegations of dressing room unrest. Lambert came into both jobs and has had absolutely no impact at all, hes won 2 in 15 and 2 in 16 which is embarrassing, matching or perhaps even worse than those sacked for incompetence prior.

You compare that to Mowbray, he inherited a shit situation and he failed in his first task of survival, as Lambert did at Stoke and will do at Ipswich. Differemce being there was a notable difference between the results of Mowbray and the previous failing manager, his win and point accumulation was markedly improved.

His one skill is to manage to deflect any blame elsewhere.

Stoke have hardly done any better with Rowett in charge now Nathan Jones. Look like next season will be their promotion push. 

Ipswich has been mess all season. Hurst wasted money he spent. Off the field its been a mess for few years. Yeah McCarthy did a good job in the earlier spell of his reign but the last 18 months of his reign was going backwards due to lack of owner investment. And the problems between him and the fans didnt help. Always going to end in tears. But overall he did a good job there. Would I want him here? Deffo not!!!

[blueboy3333]

14 hours ago, DE. said:

Made some odd career moves - keeps jumping into impossible jobs.

That's because, like Coyle, only an idiot would employ him.

[JHRover]

I think Lambert's biggest problem since leaving Norwich has been the jobs he has gone for and taken on, all of which were poisoned chalices in one way or another. Villa were a sinking ship and had been since O'Neill walked out and their owner decided he was cutting back and putting them up for sale - Houllier, McLeish, Sherwood and Garde all came and went with no better record or worse than Lambert's there. His results were poor but I'm sure survival in the Premier League would be better for Villa than their current position.

He then took on the Rovers job, very much a poisoned chalice. Whether you believe he took the job under false pretences from the owners, or just used the opportunity to reinvent himself and get himself back onto the job market, either way it was never likely to last long. His record wasn't bad, it was steady. We survived in mid-table comfort having been looking at risk of relegation mid-season. He didn't break any pots but with the squad we had I don't think our results under him were particularly poor.

Wolves was a similar situation, Recently taken over by their new owners, they were in a mess after the failed appointment of Zenga and chaotic recruitment, he went in and steadied the ship and ensured they finished mid-table, he wasn't sacked, but wasn't compatible with their Portuguese agent run operation they wanted to bring in.

His record at Stoke and Ipswich is dreadful but again, he's picked two poor jobs to go into there. Both clubs struggling to adjust after long term managers in Hughes and McCarthy departed.

I agree he needs to stick at it with Ipswich and get them up next season to repair his reputation, I think comparing him to Coyle is absolute nonsense. Coyle's 'success' amounted to a good run of form at Burnley and Bolton and complete failure ever since. Lambert did very well at Wycombe, Colchester and Norwich and steady jobs at Villa, Rovers and Wolves. I think he is a strange man who has made some strange decisions in his time but I recognised an immediate improvement to our results when he took over and up until around February or March 2016 we seemed to be making progress - looking better organised and fitter than we had for a long time previously.

A very different character to Mowbray, who seems to be more in-tune with the supporters and more relatable and crucially more willing to play the game how Venkys want it to be played, whereas at the time Lambert wasn't prepared to do it. I suspect part of that is evidenced in Mowbray not being able to get a job before us after what happened at Coventry City, whereas since walking out of Rovers Lambert has had no problems in landing Premier League/Championship jobs.  

Edited February 5, 2019 by JHRover

[roversfan99]

11 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Stoke have hardly done any better with Rowett in charge now Nathan Jones. Look like next season will be their promotion push. 

Ipswich has been mess all season. Hurst wasted money he spent. Off the field its been a mess for few years. Yeah McCarthy did a good job in the earlier spell of his reign but the last 18 months of his reign was going backwards due to lack of owner investment. And the problems between him and the fans didnt help. Always going to end in tears. But overall he did a good job there. Would I want him here? Deffo not!!!

Like I said, Mowbray took over a problematic job but his results showed an obvious and stark improvement on the failing manager who was sacked prior, in that case Coyle. Lambert was unable to improve upon the failing Hughes and Hurst, showing win/point records that were as bad if not worse than the managers he left behind. It was obviously not an easy job at Ipswich or at Stoke but the fact that he came in, there was no new manager bounce, his record was as bad if not worse than the managers he replaced (2 wins at each club) and you start to realise that a bad manager rather than bad situations are the main factor. His only skill is cleverly absolving himself of any blame but after so many failed jobs it starts to show. The only reason you seem to have taken such a shine to him is that youve met him a couple of times and he seemed a nice bloke. Which he may well be but a shite manager at the same time.

As a side note. I see that your return has coincided with using the laughter button as a way of attempting to deride posts you dont agree with without any actual debate.

[DE.]

I think it's fair to say Lambert did not do anything to improve Stoke. He obviously wasn't there very long but his brief stint was certainly a failure.

Thus far his time at Ipswich has generally been a failure too. There was a noticeable improvement in performances when he first arrived - similar to when he turned up here - but unlike here he did not get any early wins. Ipswich had two games at the start of his tenure where they should have won but ended up drawing. From that point onwards it seems to have just gotten worse and worse. Ipswich are a bit more competitive now than they were under Hurst (match stats alone show a significant improvement in terms of shots, possession, etc) but ultimately results remain poor and that's all that matters. 

That said, much like TM, Lambert can turn it around if he sticks with Ipswich and gets them promoted back to the Championship next season. If he walks out again then that might be him done for a while, or at least until his agent sweet talks another cheapskate/naive/idiot chairman into giving him another chance. 

 

[tomphil]

Ipswich are doomed I think whoever goes in there save for a fire fighter like McCarthy ?

Bit like we were a few years ago and Bolton under Davies/Gartside they seem to have owners content to fence a few quid through the books to pay the bills and keep the lights on but either baulk at or can't afford to do anything in terms of proper investment, accounting tools in short offsetting a bit of money from elsewhere and avoiding tax.

Unless they get that investment or a takeover they could well be the next Charlton or Bolton I think they'll need a major turn around on and off the pitch to bounce straight back.

[RevidgeBlue]

5 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

The similarities being touted between Mowbray and Bowyer are a bit silly.

Mowbray appears to know what he wants to do with the club, how he wants to operate it and, from the outside, it feels like he has a plan and control. I never felt anything like that from Bowyer, although in his defence, we were still a mess in the upper management structure at that time. Then again, Mowbray deserves a lot of credit for seemingly having a hand in sorting that whopping issue out. He seems to be a strong character, and that's what a manager is largely about - to direct the club with conviction.

There is also once key difference between the two - at least on the pitch; Mowbray is getting above what I expected from this squad in this league. Bowyer, for the most part, didn't. I just think this "stability" tag is stupid to be honest, because it is clear that there is a proper plan, and not some rudderless bumbling along going nowhere in particular.

Mowbray isn't flawless - we've seen that plenty of times, not least on Saturday - but he is doing a far better job with the tools at his disposal than Bowyer ever did with his, and it's clear that it is going to take a bit of time to build a promotion-challenging side - but we're getting there.

To go from League One straight to knocking on the door of the promotion spots is not a bad innings for this season. Stability is the last thing I'd describe this season as. We've been making a "right good go" at it.

We're not really knocking on the door of the promotion slots though are we? We've never been in the top 6 at any point and whilst that's not altogether surprising for this season I'm not sure I see us ever really challenging under TM iat any point n the future.

You say there's evidence of a plan, I don't see it, the only concern seems to be trying not to upset the players already on the books, there doesn't seem to be any real desire to improve the team whatsoever.

[tomphil]

Which is why I worry a bit that we are now in the growing the team to sell phase again (disguised as stability) and hoping it over achieves and pulls off the miracle but if not fine  there'll be plenty to sell to plug the finances again.

And the re-investment from that is already here in the shape of you know who.....

[DE.]

13 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Ipswich are doomed I think whoever goes in there save for a fire fighter like McCarthy ?

Bit like we were a few years ago and Bolton under Davies/Gartside they seem to have owners content to fence a few quid through the books to pay the bills and keep the lights on but either baulk at or can't afford to do anything in terms of proper investment, accounting tools in short offsetting a bit of money from elsewhere and avoiding tax.

Unless they get that investment or a takeover they could well be the next Charlton or Bolton I think they'll need a major turn around on and off the pitch to bounce straight back.

In fairness their transfer strategy under Hurst was mainly bringing in the best of League 1 & 2, so in theory they should be somewhat well equipped to deal with League 1. As we saw when we went down, it doesn't take massive amounts of investment to make a team competitive in that league, so even if Evans only earmarks £2-3m for the transfer budget it should still give Ipswich a very competitive team for that division. Us and Wigan ran away with it last season on the back of pretty moderate investment.

That said we did also keep our best players in Raya, Nyambe, Mulgrew, Lenihan, Graham, Bennett, etc, all of whom were realistically better than League 1 standard. Ipswich don't have anywhere near the same resources in terms of quality players. The way they're bombing out of the Championship this year is proof that they're well below the required standard and in urgent need of sensible permanent transfers. We only just slipped out of the Championship in comparison. 

[JHRover]

39 minutes ago, OnePhilT said:

The similarities being touted between Mowbray and Bowyer are a bit silly.

Mowbray appears to know what he wants to do with the club, how he wants to operate it and, from the outside, it feels like he has a plan and control. I never felt anything like that from Bowyer, although in his defence, we were still a mess in the upper management structure at that time. Then again, Mowbray deserves a lot of credit for seemingly having a hand in sorting that whopping issue out. He seems to be a strong character, and that's what a manager is largely about - to direct the club with conviction.

There is also once key difference between the two - at least on the pitch; Mowbray is getting above what I expected from this squad in this league. Bowyer, for the most part, didn't. I just think this "stability" tag is stupid to be honest, because it is clear that there is a proper plan, and not some rudderless bumbling along going nowhere in particular.

Mowbray isn't flawless - we've seen that plenty of times, not least on Saturday - but he is doing a far better job with the tools at his disposal than Bowyer ever did with his, and it's clear that it is going to take a bit of time to build a promotion-challenging side - but we're getting there.

To go from League One straight to knocking on the door of the promotion spots is not a bad innings for this season. Stability is the last thing I'd describe this season as. We've been making a "right good go" at it.

I don't doubt for one minute that Mowbray has a plan of what he wants to do, and from that stems recruitment and everything else, and I've no doubt he has tried and will continue to try and sell that plan to the owners and prospective players.

The difficulty we have isn't really Mowbray or his plan, it is Venkys and their plan. It all hinges upon them having a plan of their own. An idea as to what they want, how they want to get it and an alternative if it doesn't work out.

To me, as an outsider looking in, I've seen no evidence to suggest that is the case.

It appears as though they are currently taking sensible advice and are trusting their manager to get on with the job in hand. There are no suggestions dark forces are still at work, it seems they are allowing Waggott to run the operation from Ewood Park.

I think however that there are a lot of similarities to the Bowyer era, more so than people acknowledge.

Lets not forget to start with that the owners didn't headhunt Mowbray to deliver on some grand plan of theirs. He arrived mid-relegation season after his awful predecessor was finally sacked, far too late. It appears the man responsible for Mowbray's appointment was Paul Senior, who subsequently left the club and his position no longer exists. It appears they stumbled across Mowbray by good fortune in the midst of chaos, liked the bloke so gave him the chance to get us back up from League One, which to Mowbray's credit he managed well.

Both Bowyer and Mowbray were stumbled across by the decision makers at a time when the club was in dire straits and they brought calm heads, sense, professionalism to the operation. Both only got anywhere in the job because they recognised the need to get a direct line to Mrs Desai. Both had a lot of respect from the supporters as genuine, decent blokes doing their best. Both set out to assemble young mainly British squads of players with one eye on growth in squad value (the only way cash will be extracted from Pune is with re-sale in mind). Other than that we've replaced Derek Shaw with Steve Waggott. Neither it seems were sourced by Venkys but by people on the ground at Ewood or in this case the manager putting a good word in.

The major difference, perhaps crucially, is they now officially have 'their man' involved at the club in Suhail Sheik or Pasha. As alarmed as I was by his involvement I do concede his time at the club has eventually seen an improvement in the structure and hopefully that is down to his work and the owners going with what he suggests and that hopefully will prevent a repeat of what happened previously.

It's going well at the moment but it will take more than 6 months of overachieving and some semblance of a plan to convince me that lessons have been learned. Bowyer had 2 years where they left him alone to get on with it and we appeared to be a normal club. Mowbray will have reached that point at the end of this season. Lets see if it can be sustained. Hand on heart I loved Bowyer's work and the squad he put together and having watched them swing a wrecking ball at it from afar I'm reluctant to 'believe' this time round.

All it takes is for one day that phone in Pune to be off the hook and for Desai or her husband to lose interest or refuse extra funding like they did in 2015 and the whole thing comes crashing down around us. Lets hope that doesn't happen again, but I think you're naïve or oblivious to what happened 4 years ago to think it can't or won't happen again.

Edited February 5, 2019 by JHRover

[roversfan99]

16 minutes ago, DE. said:

In fairness their transfer strategy under Hurst was mainly bringing in the best of League 1 & 2, so in theory they should be somewhat well equipped to deal with League 1. As we saw when we went down, it doesn't take massive amounts of investment to make a team competitive in that league, so even if Evans only earmarks £2-3m for the transfer budget it should still give Ipswich a very competitive team for that division. Us and Wigan ran away with it last season on the back of pretty moderate investment.

That said we did also keep our best players in Raya, Nyambe, Mulgrew, Lenihan, Graham, Bennett, etc, all of whom were realistically better than League 1 standard. Ipswich don't have anywhere near the same resources in terms of quality players. The way they're bombing out of the Championship this year is proof that they're well below the required standard and in urgent need of sensible permanent transfers. We only just slipped out of the Championship in comparison. 

They have plenty of players proven in League 1 and some youngsters but their game time has been restricted following Lambert thinking only of his own job security and signing a lorry load of loans and players on short term contracts. So hes clearly going all out to survive and failing miserably!

[DE.]

17 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

They have plenty of players proven in League 1 and some youngsters but their game time has been restricted following Lambert thinking only of his own job security and signing a lorry load of loans and players on short term contracts. So hes clearly going all out to survive and failing miserably!

Yeah I'm not sure what he's doing in that regard. When he arrived at Ipswich literally one of the first things he said was that the squad has too many loans and that has to stop. Then he brings in even more. Now granted maybe there is only a budget for loan deals at this point, but even so are the likes of Quaner, Will Keane, Bree or 35 year old James Collins going to be enough to keep them up? IMV not even close, so why not just work with what you've got until the end of the season and then start fresh in L1 with some idea of who is reliable and who isn't? 

Also interesting that Judge came to Ipswich because he didn't want to play out wide for Brentford - and what happens? - he's now playing out wide for Ipswich instead. Keeps trying to drift inside though which leaves his side of the pitch totally exposed. Bizarre.