Mowbray: Stay or go?

[DE.]

Just now, Armchair supporter supremo said:

The 'Jack Rodwell Experiment' this season has been a disaster for Mowbray and letting our 1 and only natural senior CB leave without giving him a chance was just obscene, Mowbrays tactics, decision making and transfers(and general verbal diarrhea) have all been awful this year, That said i do think that he has done enough to warrant one more summer transfer window to see if he can turn things around.

Our form since November suggests that if he gets it wrong - and in the last two windows he 100% has - we are very likely to either be relegated or face a huge battle to stay up next season. Is it worth risking our Championship future because the guy got us to finish 2nd in League 1? Not for me. That's too big of a gamble and it ignores everything in Mowbray's history, which suggests he can't his teams out of these types of spirals.

[Stuart]

4 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

The same bad guessers will be quiet as a mouse UNTIL something they guessed right actually works out. That’s life.

I think you are confused. Because I agree.

Trouble is I’m still waiting for the “bad guessers” (on current form) to get something right. Then we’d all be happy! ??

[47er]

2 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

With hindsight, had the reported £10m been spent on maybe three championship class players (CB, CM, CF) I do not think we would’ve had the decline we’ve seen...but hindsight is a fine thing.

 

Hindsight?? FFS! Yours---definitely not mine. 

[arbitro]

31 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Think there’s a few more...Leutwiler, Gladwin, Rodwell etc...

Re the contacts to squad players. I don’t have a real issue with that. You’d need Bennets, Williams, Mulgrew, Graham on your bench if you wanted to go up. The most important bit is getting better players in to take their position in the first place!

Gladwin's the one who I said was permanently injured - I wasn't being flippant I really couldn't remember his name.

I'll give you a Graham on the bench but what is the point of the others? If you aren't good enough to start then you shouldn't be on the bench in my opinion. Assuming we bring six (I reckon we need eight) in who are ready to hit the ground running we will have a bloated squad. And where will the plethora of youngsters who have been given deals play? We will also have Grayson and Wharton back in the summer.

I envisage a bottleneck at every level next season primarily down to Mowbray awarding extensions to a group of players who aren't good enough.

Edited April 7, 2019 by arbitro

[Armchair supporter supremo]

1 minute ago, DE. said:

Our form since November suggests that if he gets it wrong - and in the last two windows he 100% has - we are very likely to either be relegated or face a huge battle to stay up next season. Is it worth risking our Championship future because the guy got us to finish 2nd in League 1? Not for me. That's too big of a gamble and it ignores everything in Mowbray's history, which suggests he can't his teams out of these types of spirals.

I agree but changing the manager(and coaching staff) again is as big of a gamble, especially when you look at the list of possible replacements(just the usual has beens, never gonna bees and journeymen managers)

 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, arbitro said:

Baldwin's the one who I said was permanently injured - I wasn't being flippant I really couldn't remember his name.

I'll give you a Graham on the bench but what is the point of the others? If you aren't good enough to start then you shouldn't be on the bench in my opinion. Assuming we bring six (I reckon we need eight) in who are ready to hit the ground running we will have a bloated squad. And where will the plethora of youngsters who have been given deals play? We will also have Grayson and Wharton back in the summer.

I envisage a bottleneck at every level next season primarily down to Mowbray awarding extensions to a group of players who aren't good enough.

You need those standard of players on tour bench to give you a chance of  kicking on. It’s w process of improving and replacing first teamers with better players so they become squad players. 

There’s no evidence of a bottleneck appearing. Mowbray has given more youth players senior debuts than any other former manager I can think of. That said, IF we are serious about challenging next season a lot of them will have to go out on loan. Possibly only Travis who will be ready for that level.

[Waggy76]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

You need those standard of players on tour bench to give you a chance of  kicking on. It’s w process of improving and replacing first teamers with better players so they become squad players. 

There’s no evidence of a bottleneck appearing. Mowbray has given more youth players senior debuts than any other former manager I can think of. That said, IF we are serious about challenging next season a lot of them will have to go out on loan. Possibly only Travis who will be ready for that level.

I do not expect Rovers to seriously challenge for promotion or play offs to Premiership again , in my life time , unless there is a change of ownership .

Which , I am not holding my breath on..

[JHRover]

Just now, arbitro said:

Gladwin's the one who I said was permanently injured - I wasn't being flippant I really couldn't remember his name.

I'll give you a Graham on the bench but what is the point of the others? If you aren't good enough to start then you shouldn't be on the bench in my opinion. Assuming we bring six (I reckon we need eight) in who are ready to hit the ground running we will have a bloated squad. And where will the plethora of youngsters who have been given deals play? We will also have Grayson and Wharton back in the summer.

I envisage a bottleneck at every level next season primarily down to Mowbray awarding extensions to a group of players who aren't good enough.

I agree with your figure of eight. However I don't think Venkys will, or certainly not at the calibre required.

Downing, Rodwell, Reed, Gladwin and Conway are out of contract so there are five slots coming open, though I wouldn't be surprised to see Conway given an extension by default in the absence of us being able to find anyone else. A couple of those will be loans so my guess is a CB, CM and CF on permanent and then another midfielder and defender on loan. 

Doubt Venkys or Mowbray will have the appetite to make radical changes in fact Mowbray is probably afraid of doing this.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, arbitro said:

Baldwin's the one who I said was permanently injured - I wasn't being flippant I really couldn't remember his name.

I'll give you a Graham on the bench but what is the point of the others? If you aren't good enough to start then you shouldn't be on the bench in my opinion. Assuming we bring six (I reckon we need eight) in who are ready to hit the ground running we will have a bloated squad. And where will the plethora of youngsters who have been given deals play? We will also have Grayson and Wharton back in the summer.

I envisage a bottleneck at every level next season primarily down to Mowbray awarding extensions to a group of players who aren't good enough.

We’re going to lose 5/6 out of contract. (If we wanted them they’d have extended already imo). So if we sign 6/8 then we’re absolutely going for it and I wouldn’t expect the likes of Buckley, Magloire etc to figure in any such scenario. The bottleneck only becomes an issue of we’re suggesting that the young lads are better players than those we’ve mentioned who are currently regulars but would be sat on our bench next season. The only player I can see who could cause this situation is Richie Smallwood who may take the place (wrongly) of a young player. 

The rest would simply be second choice due to be being replaced by a better player. That’s progress surely?

[DE.]

Just now, Armchair supporter supremo said:

I agree but changing the manager(and coaching staff) again is as big of a gamble, especially when you look at the list of possible replacements(just the usual has beens, never gonna bees and journeymen managers)

I'd take that gamble purely because I have 100% lost my faith in Mowbray as manager of this club. I can understand not wanting to take the gamble if you still have some belief in him, though. For me the Evans/Smallwood axis being employed yesterday alongside Bennett in the no10 role destroyed any small amount of hope I had in Mowbray turning it around. I don't think he's capable of understanding or accepting the mistakes he's made, and I think they'll continue on into next season and if he is sacked at some point we'll be right back to where we were when Coyle left. 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, JHRover said:

I agree with your figure of eight. However I don't think Venkys will, or certainly not at the calibre required.

Downing, Rodwell, Reed, Gladwin and Conway are out of contract so there are five slots coming open, though I wouldn't be surprised to see Conway given an extension by default in the absence of us being able to find anyone else. A couple of those will be loans so my guess is a CB, CM and CF on permanent and then another midfielder and defender on loan. 

Doubt Venkys or Mowbray will have the appetite to make radical changes in fact Mowbray is probably afraid of doing this.

The keeper Leutwieler is outof contract too. 

I agree with most of this. But I feel that Mowbray has no option but to make those changes. He’s openly talked now about first team CB’s with aggression. He’s openly talked about frontline strikers and experienced keepers etc...

He’s set Raya, Mulgrew and Graham up as the most high profile potential omissions. I’d go as far to say he’s a dead man walking if we start with Mulgrew and Graham in the team next season.

Smallwood must be alarmed at Travis progress and with Davenport back he will know his days are numbeed

[arbitro]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

We’re going to lose 5/6 out of contract. (If we wanted them they’d have extended already imo). So if we sign 6/8 then we’re absolutely going for it and I wouldn’t expect the likes of Buckley, Magloire etc to figure in any such scenario. The bottleneck only becomes an issue of we’re suggesting that the young lads are better players than those we’ve mentioned who are currently regulars but would be sat on our bench next season. The only player I can see who could cause this situation is Richie Smallwood who may take the place (wrongly) of a young player. 

The rest would simply be second choice due to be being replaced by a better player. That’s progress surely?

The players out of contract are a red herring if you are talking about them being replaced. Leutwiler has hardly started in the league (1 game is it) and Fisher will be coming back anyway. Gladwin hasn't kicked a ball this season. Conway and Rodwell haven't started too many games and Downing was considered not good enough. The numbers won't reduce sufficiently enough to bring in a large number of players unless we get rid of the ones now playing who clearly aren't good enough. But as I have said they have very little value to get a decent fee for any of them and I'd be staggered if they could get anywhere near what we are paying them. That's why I think we might have to pay them up to get shut of them as they will sit tight.

Mowbray was absolutely wrong to reward these players with new, improved deals and I believe they will become another millstone around our necks.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Interesting debate but I think missing an aspect. While the assorted B&Q till operatives (stealing a very memorable descriptor from another poster) that we are on here will always be convinced we know more about football than the manager, the fact is that Mowbray has, barring a short hiatus or two, been employed his entire working life in it, which is pretty rare. I think I read somewhere that half of all managers only ever have the one job doing it. I have no doubt that Mowbray knows more about football and thinks harder about it than everyone on here.

But what we are seeing now is not so much the man’s football brain but how he responds to extreme pressure. It’s now about the ability to change course; to admit what you are doing isn’t working; to recognise that people you trust are letting you down; to have a Plan B and switch to it. These are human qualities, not football knowhow. And here his track record isn’t so great. Stubbornness in adversity has sunk much greater men than Mowbray. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Exiled in Toronto

[JacknOry]

51 minutes ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

I agree but changing the manager(and coaching staff) again is as big of a gamble, especially when you look at the list of possible replacements(just the usual has beens, never gonna bees and journeymen managers)

 

Getting tired of hearing this as a reason to keep hold of a manager. Could anyone do worse than what we've seen from the last 12 games? Recruitment has been piss poor and some players seem to have incriminating photos of TM or something to be consistently getting into the team. 

Whoever is in charge has a lot of work to do this summer or we'll be relegated again next season. I think i'd rather give someone else a shot considering the recruitment that TM has done previously.

Edited April 7, 2019 by JacknOry

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

Interesting debate but I think missing an aspect. While the assorted B&Q till operatives (stealing a very memorable descriptor from another poster) that we are on here will always be convinced we know more about football than the manager, the fact is that Mowbray has, barring a short hiatus or two, been employed his entire working life in it, which is pretty rare. I think I read somewhere that half of all managers only ever have the one job doing it. I have no doubt that Mowbray knows more about football and thinks harder about it than everyone on here.

But what we are seeing now is not so much the man’s football brain but how he responds to extreme pressure. It’s now about the ability to change course; to admit what you are doing isn’t working; to have a Plan B and switch to it. These are human qualities, not football knowhow. And here his track record isn’t so great. Stubbornness in adversity has sunk much greater men than Mowbray. 

That’s a fantastic post. I 100% agree. 

[Mattyblue]

Football manager qualities though, aren’t they?

[Paul Mani]

25 minutes ago, arbitro said:

The players out of contract are a red herring if you are talking about them being replaced. Leutwiler has hardly started in the league (1 game is it) and Fisher will be coming back anyway. Gladwin hasn't kicked a ball this season. Conway and Rodwell haven't started too many games and Downing was considered not good enough. The numbers won't reduce sufficiently enough to bring in a large number of players unless we get rid of the ones now playing who clearly aren't good enough. But as I have said they have very little value to get a decent fee for any of them and I'd be staggered if they could get anywhere near what we are paying them. That's why I think we might have to pay them up to get shut of them as they will sit tight.

Mowbray was absolutely wrong to reward these players with new, improved deals and I believe they will become another millstone around our necks.

I don’t know what those players went from and too in terms of salary but I can’t see that we broke the bank for them and none were signed on extended term contracts. 

In terms of what fee we’d get for them, as far as I’m concerned we wouldn’t have been expecting big money for them either way. At least should someone want to prise a Smallwood or Williams away they will have to pay something for them? TM would’ve been slaughtered had they all been able to walk away for nothing.

This is nothing like the Etuhu, Murphy, Best scenarios. They were on massive, long term contracts...next seasons squad fillers will be on nothing like that.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Football manager qualities though, aren’t they?

Life qualities. Leadership qualities, whether in the dressing room, the corporate boardroom, the battlefield, taking a scout group hiking or Scott heading to the South Pole. 

[Mattyblue]

Who the feck will want to ‘prise Smallwood or Williams away?’ 

[Mattyblue]

Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

Life qualities. Leadership qualities, whether in the dressing room, the corporate boardroom, the battlefield, taking a scout group hiking or Scott heading to the South Pole. 

Exactly, so a football manager fits that category.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Football manager qualities though, aren’t they?

Yes mate, and as I’ve said 6436636763 times now. IF Mowbray decides to be stubborn and unable to change his tact by remaining loyal to players who have proven since the new year that they are not good enough, then I will join you in your view that he’s not the right man for this job.

Im not trying to change your mind. Barring us losing every game and going down I’m pretty sure he’s going nowhere anyway so we’re going to be able to see how this plays out.

[Mattyblue]

I’ve not actually asked for him to be sacked or voted on this thread because I know he won’t be. I’ve certainly not given any thought to a replacement. What’s the point?

So I’m just hoping he somehow turns it around, the evidence though looks like that is beyond him.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

I’ve not actually asked for him to be sacked or voted on this thread because I know he won’t be. I’ve certainly not given any thought to a replacement. What’s the point?

So I’m just hoping he somehow turns it around, the evidence though looks like that is beyond him.

Fair enough. If it’s beyond him to understand the ambitions of his bosses and to see that Mulgrew, Bell, Smallwood aren’t good enough. If he can’t comprehend that no team in the world could go up with the likes of Bennet, Graham and Evans playing every week. Then he needs to go! He’s given them a fair crack at the whip. They started off we’ll be have ultimately shown they are not upto the required standard.

[arbitro]

2 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I don’t know what those players went from and too in terms of salary but I can’t see that we broke the bank for them and none were signed on extended term contracts. 

In terms of what fee we’d get for them, as far as I’m concerned we wouldn’t have been expecting big money for them either way. At least should someone want to prise a Smallwood or Williams away they will have to pay something for them? TM would’ve been slaughtered had they all been able to walk away for nothing.

This is nothing like the Etuhu, Murphy, Best scenarios. They were on massive, long term contracts...next seasons squad fillers will be on nothing like that.

But could the likes of Smallwood and Williams earn what we are paying them given they are essentially League One at best. That's why I'm saying they could sit on their contracts and take the money. Even sending them out on loan would cost us. I'm not bracketing them with the big earners of yesteryear but the process of getting rid might be the same given the security they have.

And don't forget we will have Hart, Grayson, Wharton and Fisher back and I have a recollection of the first three being given new deals this season too.

[Songman]

If the required money is available in the summer to ensure we are competitive next season, would it be wise to trust Tony with it? Considering his sketchy as best transfer record.